Will Votto be traded?

[Falls City Beer]

No, other way around. They told Boddy to kick rocks and he still hasn’t latched on to another team. Which speaks volumes.

How long did they give the guy? They let a cyst like Buckley hang around for years. What was the rush with Boddy?

[Bourgeois Zee]

How long did they give the guy? They let a cyst like Buckley hang around for years. What was the rush with Boddy?

Not long enough, IMO, but then again, Red ownership spends money in fits and starts.

Williams convinced them to spend some serious coin on player development, and Boddy was part of that coin. So was analytics. Before that, it was international signings and draft capital.

They're not the Marge Schott era team that didn't see the point in having scouts watch ballgames and haven't been for 25 years.

[RedTeamGo!]

How long did they give the guy? They let a cyst like Buckley hang around for years. What was the rush with Boddy?

2 years. Which, was the length of his contract. They decided not to give him another contract so he quit a couple weeks early. I think there is more to the Boddy story behind closed doors we will never hear.

Just to be clear, I’m not apologizing for the Reds FO here, it’s a dumpster fire, but I think Boddy was overhyped big time.

As for Buckley. No idea, dude was garbage.

[Bourgeois Zee]

2 years. Which, was the length of his contract. They decided not to give him another contract so he quit a couple weeks early. I think there is more to the Boddy story behind closed doors we will never hear.

Just to be clear, I’m not apologizing for the Reds FO here, it’s a dumpster fire, but I think Boddy was overhyped big time.

As for Buckley. No idea, dude was garbage.

I like that guys like Lodolo, Greene, Gutierrez, Santillan, Christian Roa, and Bryce Bonnin found real success either in the major or minor leagues during his tenure. Developing high draft picks will likely mean the Reds can compete most seasons in the NL Central.

I love that guys like Graham Ashcraft, Tejay Antone, Braxton Roby, Dauri Moreta, Reiver Sanmartin, Eddy Demurias, Stevie Branche, Eduardo Salazar, Carson Spiers, and James Proctor (among others) found success. Developing UDFA and low draft picks into something that can help either acquire major league talent or as major league talent means the Reds could conceivably compete for championships.

I hope that it's the Red system that made those guys successful. However, since that system hasn't ever developed pitchers as well as they have in the past couple of seasons, I have my doubts.

[MikeS21]

2 years. Which, was the length of his contract. They decided not to give him another contract so he quit a couple weeks early. I think there is more to the Boddy story behind closed doors we will never hear.

Just to be clear, I’m not apologizing for the Reds FO here, it’s a dumpster fire, but I think Boddy was overhyped big time.

As for Buckley. No idea, dude was garbage.

Actually, consider the two years Boddy was here. There was no minor league season in 2020, so most of his “coaching” was done via video instruction and online meetings with players. In 2021, the minor league season was delayed starting by several weeks (almost two months), and Boddy was out by the end of the summer. Boddy’s actual hands on coaching lasted for one very abbreviated season. That’s really not enough time to evaluate his effectiveness as a coach.

I absolutely agree that there is more to the story than we are aware.

[westofyou]

Didn’t Boddy tell them to kick rocks though?

Nope, Boddy leveraged social media to make it look like he told them to kick rocks, meantime he was seeing the end of a contract like any other hitting or pitching coach would if it didn't work out.

He made noise, the Reds just did business like they do with any other asset they latch on to year in and year out.

[RedsManRick]

Is that moving forward only, or does that add all WAR from the signing of his contract to now and ignore future production?

Moving forward only -- that's all that matters for the purposes of discussing a possible trade value. That he's already "earned" his full contract is irrelevant from the perspective of future payroll and competitiveness.

[RedsManRick]

Eh, that's not really true, though. They spend as much as anybody on drafting and international amatures. I don't know about development spending, but there in is a lot of talk about their investment in tech and analytics. They even dabble on the FA market.

I do wonder if they skimp on some areas to pay for a relatively oversized major league payroll vs. their peers.

Anyways, this isn't an excuse for them. I think their real problem is even more challenging then poverty or plain cheapness... incompetence. They want to win, they have and do spend money. They just don't have the ability as an organization to turn that into consistent winning.

But to act like they are dying to get rid of salary commitments that they themselves added in recent years is silly. They aren't glad Castellanos walked. And they aren't giving up a Malhe or Castillo to "shed" Votto, their franchise player. Nor would they want to.

And they would net profit way more by staying away from contracts like Castellanos, Votto, Moustakas, Shogo, ect, and being more like the Pirates while ignoring attendance.

This. Spending more money would make it easier, but money hasn't been the primary reason for not winning.

[MoneyInTheBank]

I think you’re being emotional about Bob Castellini/the ownership group. They don’t care about any of that fundamentally. They want to field the cheapest team possible that still keeps the turnstiles moving. If that’s with Votto, then so be it. If it’s not, Votto will go. But it’s moot. He’s got a no-trade.

I think you are projecting a bit saying I'm emotional about the ownership group. We agree it's about ticket sales, so they aren't dumping very productive controllable pieces to shed one of, if not, the most productive/marketable/tenured player on the roster

[Falls City Beer]

I think you are projecting a bit saying I'm emotional about the ownership group. We agree it's about ticket sales, so they aren't dumping very productive controllable pieces to shed one of, if not, the most productive/marketable/tenured player on the roster

I’m simply saying if you think there’s some romantic connection between Castellini and the roster then you’re very much wrong, imo. I misphrased. I didn’t mean you were being emotional, just that you were describing an emotional connection between ownership and the team that doesn’t exist.

[757690]

I’m simply saying if you think there’s some romantic connection between Castellini and the roster then you’re very much wrong, imo. I misphrased. I didn’t mean you were being emotional, just that you were describing an emotional connection between ownership and the team that doesn’t exist.

Castellini’s emotional attachment to the team is what has most defined his ownership. It also has been the source of the team’s biggest problems. I mean, we don’t get Votto on a 10 year contract without Bob’s emotional attachment to the team.

[Falls City Beer]

Castellini’s emotional attachment to the team is what has most defined his ownership. It also has been the source of the team’s biggest problems. I mean, we don’t get Votto on a 10 year contract without Bob’s emotional attachment to the team.

That was an investment. On balance a good one, but this perceived emotionalism on the part of Castellini is almost certainly a media creation. His first order of business is ballooning the organization’s worth. He couldn’t care less about winning or losing. If he could continue to increase the franchise’s value while losing 100 games a year he’d do it in a heartbeat.

[757690]

That was an investment. On balance a good one, but this perceived emotionalism on the part of Castellini is almost certainly a media creation. His first order of business is ballooning the organization’s worth. He couldn’t care less about winning or losing. If he could continue to increase the franchise’s value while losing 100 games a year he’d do it in a heartbeat.

This is so wrong it isn’t worth responding to. But I will make a brief effort:

1. “The losing stops now!” Castellini was rightfully ridiculed for such a emotionally driven quote.
2. The only winning run that the Reds have enjoyed in the last 25 seasons has been under Castellini’s ownership.
3. The Reds have averaged well above $100M payroll over Castellini’s ownership.
4. The Reds under Castellini have been steadily right in the middle of the league in payroll. They were 11th in 2020.
5. The Reds have been active not only in the free agent market, but also in signing their players to extensions, even when they were not smart investments.
6. The Reds were in the playoffs in 2020 and just missed them last year.
7. Castellini has refused to trade high priced veterans because he didn’t want to let down the fans.

And so many more.

[DayGameRedLegs]

I don't think Votto will be traded. I think it's a quaint but enjoyable comfort to see a star player play his whole career for one team.

Besides, he's making so much money in his twilight years, who else would want to pay that amount without us splitting the cost?

This is so wrong it isn’t worth responding to. But I will make a brief effort:

1. “The losing stops now!” Castellini was rightfully ridiculed for such a emotionally driven quote.
2. The only winning run that the Reds have enjoyed in the last 25 seasons has been under Castellini’s ownership.
3. The Reds have averaged well above $100M payroll over Castellini’s ownership.
4. The Reds under Castellini have been steadily right in the middle of the league in payroll. They were 11th in 2020.
5. The Reds have been active not only in the free agent market, but also in signing their players to extensions, even when they were not smart investments.
6. The Reds were in the playoffs in 2020 and just missed them last year.
7. Castellini has refused to trade high priced veterans because he didn’t want to let down the fans.

And so many more.

I like and agree w/ everything you pointed out except the 1st one. I don't know the context, but "The losing stops now!" sounds perfectly acceptable to me.

[Falls City Beer]

This is so wrong it isn’t worth responding to. But I will make a brief effort:

1. “The losing stops now!” Castellini was rightfully ridiculed for such a emotionally driven quote.
2. The only winning run that the Reds have enjoyed in the last 25 seasons has been under Castellini’s ownership.
3. The Reds have averaged well above $100M payroll over Castellini’s ownership.
4. The Reds under Castellini have been steadily right in the middle of the league in payroll. They were 11th in 2020.
5. The Reds have been active not only in the free agent market, but also in signing their players to extensions, even when they were not smart investments.
6. The Reds were in the playoffs in 2020 and just missed them last year.
7. Castellini has refused to trade high priced veterans because he didn’t want to let down the fans.

And so many more.

You have to invest something or the turnstiles don’t turn. I guess he should be applauded for not cutting the payroll to league minimum every season, but he’s savvy enough to know that you have to keep some players around to sell tickets. But the idea that he’s foolhardily throwing money at this team out of some emotional drive to win is just not discernible in the facts. He was pretty easy to convince to tank and chase draft picks.

And the 99 team team also had a winning record. And really was probably the best team of the last 27 years given the amount of payroll disparity at the time.