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Thread: 2022 Armshare GM

  1. #1
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    2022 Armshare GM

    Trying to come up with an offseason/ lockout game to keep engaged and thought up this half-baked idea.

    One deal at a time, let's remake the Cincinnati Reds into a contender.

    Rules:

    1. Real world possible trades only, please. Let's assume other teams understand the value of their players. No Trout-for-Friedl silliness.

    2. Because these trades are set in the real world, salary constraints have to be observed. While it's possible that Hunter Greene, Nick Lodolo, and Matt McLain might net you Bryce Harper, the imbalanced salaries make it remarkably unlikely. Try to keep salaries within a million or so of each other.

    3. This is meant to engender conversation. One trade per poster only. Talk about the other hypothetical deals. Explain why they're unlikely. Or explain why you like them.

    4. No Joey Votto trades. Dude has a no-trade clause in his back pocket. He's expensive and old. He's played his whole career thus far in a Red uniform. Assume Castellini has made him intouchable. Find another deal.

    First Deal:

    Cincinnati Reds trade 2B/ 3B Mike Moustakas and AA CF Lorenzo Cedrola for RP Craig Kimbrel.

    Why it Works for Cincinnati: I don't know if you're aware, but the Reds don't have a closer. In fact, you could argue that the current iteration of the Cincinnati relief corps is the most bereft of closer candidates of any squad in baseball. Art Warren and Tony Santillan-- one year ago, AAA question marks both-- are the most successful candidates available. Then there's Lucas Sims, who spit the bit last year when given the chance. So Kimbrel becomes the unquestioned closer. This allows the aforementioned triumverate of decent arms (plus Cessa and perhaps Wilson and Garrett) to form a 'pen that actually makes a bit of sense. Of course, there's some worry here, as Kimbrel was absolutely torched on the South Side. He's been really, really bad in 2020 and in limited innings for the Sox after being dominant in the first four months of the season for the Cubs. But the payoff could be substantial. And it's not like it's costing a bunch: Moustakas is blocked at both of his primary positions and looks to be part of a three-headed monster for the infield corners and DH-- assuming the DH is actually the plan for the National League.

    Cedrola is the price for the extra $2M Moustaks is owed in 2023. While the Reds are short on CF, he's considered a secondary or tertiery property, not unlike TJ Friedl. But he has a hit tool and may prove valuable as a fourth or fifth OF in 2023 behind Robert and the other White Sox OF corps.

    Why it Works for Chicago: Kimbrel was a colossal failure as a relief acquisition last year. His ERA 5.09 ERA in 24 games wasn't a fluke either. He was hit early and often. As a result, Chicago went out and grabbed free agent Kendall Graveman to go along with holdovers Liam Hendriks, Jose Ruiz, Michael Kopech, Aaron Bummer, and Jared Crochet to make the Sox 'pen six deep with pitchers who are likely to be as good or better than Kimbrel. In short, he's an expensive extra arm. Chicago is also short a 2B. No, check that. They have three 2B, all of them young and unproven. Typically, the franchise would take the time to pick between them, play each of them a few innings to see who's better, developing them all at the major and AAA level. But the White Sox are going for it. Moustakas provides a more secure option than any of the three would-be Chicago 2B. That's real value for a guy who struggled to stop the bleeding last year and is a real question mark for this season. Especially as it doesn't cost Chicago much of anything in terms of cash. (Kimbrel was already a sunk cost.)

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  4. #2
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    Just out of curiosity, is that supposed to be Armchair GM? Or is there something called "armshare" that I just don't know about

    [serious question - no snark]
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  6. #3
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    Just out of curiosity, is that supposed to be Armchair GM? Or is there something called "armshare" that I just don't know about

    [serious question - no snark]
    Tried a pun-- "sharing" the GM title and armchair GMing.

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  8. #4
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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    Trying to come up with an offseason/ lockout game to keep engaged and thought up this half-baked idea.

    One deal at a time, let's remake the Cincinnati Reds into a contender.

    Rules:

    1. Real world possible trades only, please. Let's assume other teams understand the value of their players. No Trout-for-Friedl silliness.

    2. Because these trades are set in the real world, salary constraints have to be observed. While it's possible that Hunter Greene, Nick Lodolo, and Matt McLain might net you Bryce Harper, the imbalanced salaries make it remarkably unlikely. Try to keep salaries within a million or so of each other.

    3. This is meant to engender conversation. One trade per poster only. Talk about the other hypothetical deals. Explain why they're unlikely. Or explain why you like them.

    4. No Joey Votto trades. Dude has a no-trade clause in his back pocket. He's expensive and old. He's played his whole career thus far in a Red uniform. Assume Castellini has made him intouchable. Find another deal.

    First Deal:

    Cincinnati Reds trade 2B/ 3B Mike Moustakas and AA CF Lorenzo Cedrola for RP Craig Kimbrel.

    Why it Works for Cincinnati: I don't know if you're aware, but the Reds don't have a closer. In fact, you could argue that the current iteration of the Cincinnati relief corps is the most bereft of closer candidates of any squad in baseball. Art Warren and Tony Santillan-- one year ago, AAA question marks both-- are the most successful candidates available. Then there's Lucas Sims, who spit the bit last year when given the chance. So Kimbrel becomes the unquestioned closer. This allows the aforementioned triumverate of decent arms (plus Cessa and perhaps Wilson and Garrett) to form a 'pen that actually makes a bit of sense. Of course, there's some worry here, as Kimbrel was absolutely torched on the South Side. He's been really, really bad in 2020 and in limited innings for the Sox after being dominant in the first four months of the season for the Cubs. But the payoff could be substantial. And it's not like it's costing a bunch: Moustakas is blocked at both of his primary positions and looks to be part of a three-headed monster for the infield corners and DH-- assuming the DH is actually the plan for the National League.

    Cedrola is the price for the extra $2M Moustaks is owed in 2023. While the Reds are short on CF, he's considered a secondary or tertiery property, not unlike TJ Friedl. But he has a hit tool and may prove valuable as a fourth or fifth OF in 2023 behind Robert and the other White Sox OF corps.

    Why it Works for Chicago: Kimbrel was a colossal failure as a relief acquisition last year. His ERA 5.09 ERA in 24 games wasn't a fluke either. He was hit early and often. As a result, Chicago went out and grabbed free agent Kendall Graveman to go along with holdovers Liam Hendriks, Jose Ruiz, Michael Kopech, Aaron Bummer, and Jared Crochet to make the Sox 'pen six deep with pitchers who are likely to be as good or better than Kimbrel. In short, he's an expensive extra arm. Chicago is also short a 2B. No, check that. They have three 2B, all of them young and unproven. Typically, the franchise would take the time to pick between them, play each of them a few innings to see who's better, developing them all at the major and AAA level. But the White Sox are going for it. Moustakas provides a more secure option than any of the three would-be Chicago 2B. That's real value for a guy who struggled to stop the bleeding last year and is a real question mark for this season. Especially as it doesn't cost Chicago much of anything in terms of cash. (Kimbrel was already a sunk cost.)
    I thought about a Kimbrel/Moose trade last night, I think it'd take more than adding a Cedrola to sweeten it. Maybe adding a guy like Farmer, another big-league talent who won't make another dent in the payroll. But they'd be on the hook for Moose's 23 and his buyout, which as we know has a chance to be a complete disaster.

    They could use both guys at DH/2B/3B and use Farmer as depth at SS/LF too. Might make sense. I get the feeling the Reds have been trying to shine Farmer up all winter and are ready to deal him.

  9. #5
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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    Actually a deal like this could be a win-win for both teams, as to reallocating assets:

    Reds trade:

    1) Moose-2b/3b/DH 16, 18, 4 million buyout left on contract

    2) Farmer- SS/DH/utility 2.25 million

    3) Reds pay half of Moose's 18 million for 2023 (9) saving 9 million in 2023

    White Sox trade:

    1) Craig Kimbrel-Closer 16 million contract

    2) Caleb Freeman- RHRP (22) AA, #21 prospect in their system

  10. #6
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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    Reds trade with the Orioles to shore up CF and the rotation for multiple years.

    REDS get:
    CF Cedric Mullens
    SP.John Means

    Orioles get:
    OF Nick Senzel
    SP Vlad.Gutierrez
    OF Jay Allen
    IF Eddy de la.cruz
    SP Graham Ashcraft
    RP Andrew Abbott

    I know this will seem like a massive prospect overpay but about what you'd need to address 2 huge holes. Means is a middle.of rotation stalwart for 3 years and Mullens locks down CF for 4. It matches up well with the timeline of India and Stephenson.

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  12. #7
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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    In the spirit of the Reds salary dumping ways, here is my lame attempt:

    To the Yankees - Kyle Farmer(stopgap SS until Volpe/Peraza) and Shogo Akiyama(not much worse than Brett Gardner)
    To the Reds - Clarke Schmidt (lottery ticket)

    Clear the path for Barrero and rid the payroll of Shogo. Anything you get out of Schmidt is a bonus.
    Last edited by HalKing; 01-18-2022 at 11:53 AM.

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  14. #8
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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    Quote Originally Posted by herbdizzle View Post
    Reds trade with the Orioles to shore up CF and the rotation for multiple years.

    REDS get:
    CF Cedric Mullens
    SP.John Means

    Orioles get:
    OF Nick Senzel
    SP Vlad.Gutierrez
    OF Jay Allen
    IF Eddy de la.cruz
    SP Graham Ashcraft
    RP Andrew Abbott

    I know this will seem like a massive prospect overpay but about what you'd need to address 2 huge holes. Means is a middle.of rotation stalwart for 3 years and Mullens locks down CF for 4. It matches up well with the timeline of India and Stephenson.
    I like this one. Some high end prospects will be needed to make a deal and the Reds keep Greene, Lodolo and McClain. Means will be arb eligible this year, but so will Senzel, so the money evens out. I think that deal would make the Reds a contender.
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  15. #9
    Member mth123's Avatar
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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    Quote Originally Posted by HalKing View Post
    In the spirit of the Reds salary dumping ways, here is my lame attempt:

    To the Yankees - Kyle Farmer(stopgap SS until Volpe/Peraza) and Shogo Akiyama(not much worse than Brett Gardner)
    To the Reds - Clarke Schmidt (lottery ticket)

    Clear the path for Barrero and rid the payroll of Shogo. Anything you get out of Schmidt is a bonus.
    Can't see the Yankees taking Shogo without dumping a salary in return or the Reds paying most of his Salary. Maybe if the Reds add $5 or $6 Million. The fact is, there will be lots of minor league FA who can do what Shogo does without it costing $8 Million. The only way to move Shogo is by using him as ballast to take on a contract that may fit the roster better.
    Last edited by mth123; 01-18-2022 at 12:22 PM.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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  17. #10
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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    Trying to come up with an offseason/ lockout game to keep engaged and thought up this half-baked idea.

    One deal at a time, let's remake the Cincinnati Reds into a contender.

    Rules:

    1. Real world possible trades only, please. Let's assume other teams understand the value of their players. No Trout-for-Friedl silliness.

    2. Because these trades are set in the real world, salary constraints have to be observed. While it's possible that Hunter Greene, Nick Lodolo, and Matt McLain might net you Bryce Harper, the imbalanced salaries make it remarkably unlikely. Try to keep salaries within a million or so of each other.

    3. This is meant to engender conversation. One trade per poster only. Talk about the other hypothetical deals. Explain why they're unlikely. Or explain why you like them.

    4. No Joey Votto trades. Dude has a no-trade clause in his back pocket. He's expensive and old. He's played his whole career thus far in a Red uniform. Assume Castellini has made him intouchable. Find another deal.

    First Deal:

    Cincinnati Reds trade 2B/ 3B Mike Moustakas and AA CF Lorenzo Cedrola for RP Craig Kimbrel.

    Why it Works for Cincinnati: I don't know if you're aware, but the Reds don't have a closer. In fact, you could argue that the current iteration of the Cincinnati relief corps is the most bereft of closer candidates of any squad in baseball. Art Warren and Tony Santillan-- one year ago, AAA question marks both-- are the most successful candidates available. Then there's Lucas Sims, who spit the bit last year when given the chance. So Kimbrel becomes the unquestioned closer. This allows the aforementioned triumverate of decent arms (plus Cessa and perhaps Wilson and Garrett) to form a 'pen that actually makes a bit of sense. Of course, there's some worry here, as Kimbrel was absolutely torched on the South Side. He's been really, really bad in 2020 and in limited innings for the Sox after being dominant in the first four months of the season for the Cubs. But the payoff could be substantial. And it's not like it's costing a bunch: Moustakas is blocked at both of his primary positions and looks to be part of a three-headed monster for the infield corners and DH-- assuming the DH is actually the plan for the National League.

    Cedrola is the price for the extra $2M Moustaks is owed in 2023. While the Reds are short on CF, he's considered a secondary or tertiery property, not unlike TJ Friedl. But he has a hit tool and may prove valuable as a fourth or fifth OF in 2023 behind Robert and the other White Sox OF corps.

    Why it Works for Chicago: Kimbrel was a colossal failure as a relief acquisition last year. His ERA 5.09 ERA in 24 games wasn't a fluke either. He was hit early and often. As a result, Chicago went out and grabbed free agent Kendall Graveman to go along with holdovers Liam Hendriks, Jose Ruiz, Michael Kopech, Aaron Bummer, and Jared Crochet to make the Sox 'pen six deep with pitchers who are likely to be as good or better than Kimbrel. In short, he's an expensive extra arm. Chicago is also short a 2B. No, check that. They have three 2B, all of them young and unproven. Typically, the franchise would take the time to pick between them, play each of them a few innings to see who's better, developing them all at the major and AAA level. But the White Sox are going for it. Moustakas provides a more secure option than any of the three would-be Chicago 2B. That's real value for a guy who struggled to stop the bleeding last year and is a real question mark for this season. Especially as it doesn't cost Chicago much of anything in terms of cash. (Kimbrel was already a sunk cost.)
    I like the idea but I don't think they'll deal one year of Kimbrel for 2 years of Moose.

    Maybe it could go the other way.

    Reds trade Shogo Akiyama and Justin Wilson for Kimbrel and $3 Million. Sox save $3 Million or so and Reds add a closer for a $3 Million incremental cost. Sox can probably use Wilson and they have no lefty bats on the bench with 3 RH hitting OF projected to start and a RH 4th OF as well (Jimenez, Robert, Engel and Adolfo), so Shogo may actually be a decent bench piece who fits for them.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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  19. #11
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I like the idea but I don't think they'll deal one year of Kimbrel for 2 years of Moose.
    Yeah, honestly, I looked at Kimbrel's deal incorrectly.

    I thought he was under contract for two more seasons.

  20. #12
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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I like this one. Some high end prospects will be needed to make a deal and the Reds keep Greene, Lodolo and McClain. Means will be arb eligible this year, but so will Senzel, so the money evens out. I think that deal would make the Reds a contender.
    Baltimore GM would likely have hard time surviving this one. That's 9.7 WAR off last year's team, which went 52-110, for Senzel and Gutierrez at the major league level. I'd love to have Means and Mullens but Baltimore would have to receive a lot more major league value to think about trading those guys, IMO.

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  22. #13
    I rig polls REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Can't see the Yankees taking Shogo without dumping a salary in return or the Reds paying most of his Salary. Maybe if the Reds add $5 or $6 Million. The fact is, there will be lots of minor league FA who can do what Shogo does without it costing $8 Million. The only way to move Shogo is by using him as ballast to take on a contract that may fit the roster better.
    Yea, unless the Reds are going to make some serious moves to contend in 2022, it really doesn't make sense to shed Shogo's salary.
    I know that is the premise of this thread (make the Reds a contender), so I am know in that context, it does make sense to unload Shogo.
    But I guess in the real world, why bother? The Reds aren't going to reallocate Shogo's money to pitching if they do dump him, so why add any kind of sweetener to get another team to take Shogo?
    I think the only chance the Reds would have to unload Shogo would be to take on even more money (like a guy with one year left, owed 12 million, so the team that gets Shogo saves 4 million).
    Obviously, the Reds are in penny pinching mode, so that's not going to happen.
    Shogo is seriously one of the worst players to ever don a Reds' uniform. Completely useless, no upside.. No team in their right mind would want him, unless it saved them money to acquire him or the Reds kicked in a really sweet prospect like Greene/Lodollo (doesn't make sense from Reds' point of view)
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  23. #14
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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    Baltimore GM would likely have hard time surviving this one. That's 9.7 WAR off last year's team, which went 52-110, for Senzel and Gutierrez at the major league level. I'd love to have Means and Mullens but Baltimore would have to receive a lot more major league value to think about trading those guys, IMO.
    If I were Baltimore, I'd feel the same way, but with De La Cruz, Allen, Ashcraft and Abbott, they'd be getting four of the Reds top 10 prospects. I'd be fine with Subbing Lodolo for Ashcraft or Abbott if need be btw. I don't want to trade Greene and I'd like to hang on to McClain. Means and Mullens address the team's top 2 needs if the Reds want to contend, which with the right acquisitions the reds could still do. I don't see any way for Baltimore to contend so loading up with prospects seems a reasonable plan for them. They may not do it, but its not a terrible offer IMO.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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    Re: 2022 Armshare GM

    You must be looking at different players than I am in Means and Mullens. Especially Means

    Yes this is a massive over pay #4 Prospect SS Eddy de la.cruz #5 Prospect Ashcraft #7 Prospect Allen and newly drafted Abbott plus Senzel and Gutierrez

    Mullens is not a good Cfer defensively I would not mind him but you are giving up too much for him.
    Means is not really not that good. His ERA was way better than it should be and his HR rate is aweful (1.84) not much of an upgrade plus we do need him past this year. He was very lucky with BABIP .240. He also have high LOB 80%. (He profiles very much like Eric Milton type implosion coming to Reds).

    This is the anti move if we want to be like The Rays or A's. We are basically trading for 2 players that are coming off career years.

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