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Thread: Hunter Greene

  1. #766
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Hunter Greene needs his innings reduced. This is the time for him to be taken out of the rotation and be placed at the end of the Bull Pen. He should close Reds games.


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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Tomato, Tomahto. Tons of pitchers get plenty of guys out and give up runs. Call it what you won't, but if its not consistent, its not an out pitch IMO. An out pitch means hitters have little chance to square it up when he throws it. That isn't Geene so far.
    Batters are hitting .236 against Greene. That is below league average. He is getting more outs on his pitches than the average pitcher. He has an out pitch.

    The problem is that he also gives up too many HR’s. That is a separate issue.

    Having an out pitch, and giving up too many HR’s is not mutually exclusive. Both can be true of the same pitcher and the pitch for that pitcher.
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer Guy View Post
    Hunter Greene needs his innings reduced. This is the time for him to be taken out of the rotation and be placed at the end of the Bull Pen. He should close Reds games.
    I'd prefer to see him in AAA doing 3-4 inning starts, but you are right about his innings. He was just over 100 last year. I have to believe he will be capped somewhere in the 130-140 range. My guess is they keep him on a regular schedule until he hits that limit then just shut him down for September.

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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer Guy View Post
    Hunter Greene needs his innings reduced. This is the time for him to be taken out of the rotation and be placed at the end of the Bull Pen. He should close Reds games.
    Giving up 5 runs in the fifth inning has been working well to accomplish that.

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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Batters are hitting .236 against Greene. That is below league average. He is getting more outs on his pitches than the average pitcher. He has an out pitch.

    The problem is that he also gives up too many HR’s. That is a separate issue.

    Having an out pitch, and giving up too many HR’s is not mutually exclusive. Both can be true of the same pitcher and the pitch for that pitcher.
    Ahem. Greene's OBPA is currently sitting at .324. By my count, only about five MLB teams have an OBP this season as high or higher than that, with the MLB average OBP sitting at .312. Using min Inning qualifier of 90 IP, his SLG against, driven in part by his MLB-worst HR-against rate. His BB%+ (BB rate compared to league average) is also the third worst in baseball. Yes, he strikes out hitters at a high rate, certainly, which makes his MLB-worst FIP (5.42) and dismal 18.3 pitches per IP all the more alarming. The fact is that Greene struggles to get Outs. While high K-rates are promising residuals of throwing hard and promising stuff, his results do not profile him as a pitcher who can- at the moment- rely on a single offering to allow him to avoid trouble at will.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Ahem. Greene's OBPA is currently sitting at .324. By my count, only about five MLB teams have an OBP this season as high or higher than that, with the MLB average OBP sitting at .312. Using min Inning qualifier of 90 IP, his SLG against, driven in part by his MLB-worst HR-against rate. His BB%+ (BB rate compared to league average) is also the third worst in baseball. Yes, he strikes out hitters at a high rate, certainly, which makes his MLB-worst FIP (5.42) and dismal 18.3 pitches per IP all the more alarming. The fact is that Greene struggles to get Outs. While high K-rates are promising residuals of throwing hard and promising stuff, his results do not profile him as a pitcher who can- at the moment- rely on a single offering to allow him to avoid trouble at will.
    All this tells us is what we already know.

    Greene has an out pitch, as he K’s reveals, and he has trouble commanding it.

    Everyone knows Greene is not a good pitcher right now, he needs to improve. The key is to figure out what he needs to improve on. He does not need to get an out pitch. He already has one. He needs to learn how to command it better.
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    All this tells us is what we already know.

    Greene has an out pitch, as he K’s reveals, and he has trouble commanding it.

    Everyone knows Greene is not a good pitcher right now, he needs to improve. The key is to figure out what he needs to improve on. He does not need to get an out pitch. He already has one. He needs to learn how to command it better.
    Well, you apparently didn't know it. You tried to frame his batting average against as somehow equaling "more" outs than average when, instead, Greene actually produces what what we know to be "fewer" outs. He doesn't have Dibble's slider, Mike Scott's splitter, Soto's change, or Lincecum's curve. Those would qualify as "Out pitches". And I don't care that you think Greene has the inconsistent makings of something of which he lacks command. If the dish is not ready, he needs to work on it until it is or serve a different meal.

    For certain, you're within about two millimeters of doug's infamous "He's not a hitter, he's a slugger." nonsense. Never thought I'd see that again.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Well, you apparently didn't know it. You tried to frame his batting average against as somehow equaling "more" outs than average when, instead, Greene actually produces what what we know to be "fewer" outs. He doesn't have Dibble's slider, Mike Scott's splitter, Soto's change, or Lincecum's curve. Those would qualify as "Out pitches". And I don't care that you think Greene has the inconsistent makings of something of which he lacks command. If the dish is not ready, he needs to work on it until it is or serve a different meal.

    For certain, you're within about two millimeters of doug's infamous "He's not a hitter, he's a slugger." nonsense. Never thought I'd see that again.
    We actually agree more than you think.

    He absolutely needs to work on his fastball, and all his pitches. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t out pitches.

    This is basically semantics. I am saying he has an out pitch, but needs to work on commanding it. If you want to say that means he doesn’t have an out pitch, I really don’t care.

    It doesn’t matter what we call it. What matters is that he has a pitch that when he commands it, dominates a game, gets outs at an elite level, as we saw in his no hit game and others. When he doesn’t command it, it gets crushed into the stands, or turns into walks. The key is he needs to command his pitches better. He doesn’t need new ones, or to tinker with them, he just needs to develop better command.

    Maybe he does, maybe he doesn’t. We will see.
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  14. #774
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Well, you apparently didn't know it. You tried to frame his batting average against as somehow equaling "more" outs than average when, instead, Greene actually produces what what we know to be "fewer" outs. He doesn't have Dibble's slider, Mike Scott's splitter, Soto's change, or Lincecum's curve. Those would qualify as "Out pitches". And I don't care that you think Greene has the inconsistent makings of something of which he lacks command. If the dish is not ready, he needs to work on it until it is or serve a different meal.

    For certain, you're within about two millimeters of doug's infamous "He's not a hitter, he's a slugger." nonsense. Never thought I'd see that again.
    What are your thoughts on Greene’s slider? Earlier in the year it was getting serious hype as his “out pitch.” Not trying to do a gotcha. Just wondering how much truth you think there was to that. His fastball needs some serious work. IMO he needs to adopt a 2 seamer or cutter as well as improve command.

  15. #775
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    You bet he's working on something now, because MLB batters are in his kitchen. How much throwing is there between starts?
    May the Lord bless

  16. #776
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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Here are my thoughts on Greene and his pitches:

    1 - I'll go ahead and get this out of the way, he's 22 and i'm not overly concerned with the bumps and bruises.

    2 - The FB needs a little work, any additional vertical movement he can get on it will help. It's kind of crazy reading that FG article that makes it sound like his horizontal movement turns his FB into a sweet-spot seeking missile.

    3 - Primary work on secondary pitches needs to be on the change up. Make it as deceptive as possible.

    4 - As a pitcher who threw a lot of sliders to get guys out (still love the beauty of watching a righty fall over themselves reaching for a late breaker that runs away and down) I don't like the pitch as a high usage secondary pitch in todays game unless it is absolutely lethal (same goes for a curve). Both of these pitches need a high scoring combination of - break, lateness of the break, proper speed, and location. Way too many things can go wrong and leaving a breaker over the plate will result in catastrophe to almost any good hitter. Don't get me wrong, these pitches can be the icing on a cake but the cake has to be good for the icing to be worth a damn (unless you're like my youngest child who only eats icing).

    5 - I know it's easier said than done but a cutter, 2 seamer, or sinker are needed, preferably a 2 seamer or sinker, something with drop. In my experience these pitches will not only cause greater stress to a hitter worried about a FB but can also be used heavily on a day where a pitcher isnt on his A game and isnt missing bats. The ability to induce weak contact in the absence of swing and misses is critical to any pitchers success (unless you're from another planet like Jacob DeGrom). Then on a day where a pitcher is good you can really mess with a guy by showing him the sinker or 2 seamer and then pumping a 4 seamer up top right by him.

    The ultimate tool in pitching is being able to manipulate the bat speed of the hitter and to be one step ahead of him. I'm currently teaching my oldest about the mental game between a pitcher and hitter and how I relate it a lot to rock, paper, scissors, where if you can remain one step ahead or figure out your opponents likely moves you will win every time. It also helps that the cages we use are ran by a Reds fan and he has a lot of Votto stuff hanging up so I can point to it and tell my kid that's one of the most intellegent hitters of all time.

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    Re: Hunter Greene

    I think the biggest mistake the Reds made this year was bringing Greene up too early and burning a year of control. This should've been the time of the year when he was called up(if he was pitching well in AAA and had 3 pitches ready to go). Of course these are the same evaluators that thought Vlad Gutierrez was a permanent rotation fixture despite giving up 22 ER the last 21 innings he pitched in 2021, and the same evaluators that thought Reiver SanMartin was MLB starter material.

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    Re: Hunter Greene

    I'm not often on the same side as '75 but I think he's got a valid point here. When I hear a guy described as not having an out-pitch, I envision someone with like a 7.0 K/9 or worse or a guy who constantly runs up to 100 pitches within a few frames. Neither of those is Greene.

    His problems start and largely end with the HR ball. Not much you can do but hope it improves as he gains more experience with pitching, and since he is still just 22 there's reason to hope it can.
    “I don’t care,” Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. “He’s in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.”

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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    What are your thoughts on Greene’s slider? Earlier in the year it was getting serious hype as his “out pitch.” Not trying to do a gotcha. Just wondering how much truth you think there was to that. His fastball needs some serious work. IMO he needs to adopt a 2 seamer or cutter as well as improve command.
    I think his slider is promising. But it needs more seasoning. And yes, working on other offerings might help his slider to be a more effective. Here's a true Out pitch:



    Greene's is pretty good, but it is not that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I'm not often on the same side as '75 but I think he's got a valid point here. When I hear a guy described as not having an out-pitch, I envision someone with like a 7.0 K/9 or worse or a guy who constantly runs up to 100 pitches within a few frames. Neither of those is Greene.
    Actually, if Greene had only a couple more Innings to qualify he'd have the highest P/IP (18.3) rate among all MLB pitching qualifiers. So far he's been the epitome of a guy who quickly racks up a ton of pitches over few Innings.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

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    Re: Hunter Greene

    Quote Originally Posted by JCM11 View Post
    I think the biggest mistake the Reds made this year was bringing Greene up too early and burning a year of control. This should've been the time of the year when he was called up(if he was pitching well in AAA and had 3 pitches ready to go). Of course these are the same evaluators that thought Vlad Gutierrez was a permanent rotation fixture despite giving up 22 ER the last 21 innings he pitched in 2021, and the same evaluators that thought Reiver SanMartin was MLB starter material.
    Yeah, I think they may have rushed him in response to the criticism of moving the vets before the season started.
    Everything is perfect, but there is a lot of room for improvement. --- Shunryu Suzuki-roshi


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