I'm sort of enjoying this (not sarcasm)

[Phhhl]

I would like to think they could be shamed into reconsidering their "vision". Unfortunately, it is probably the first vision they have ever had that they are likely to keep focused on. In their rosey red goggles they see the Rays and the A's. With 20/20 vision, we see the Orioles and Pirates as the models for our future.

[RedTeamGo!]

No one is saying he is a martyr. That's ridiculous framing. Stop it.

People are saying under Williams there was a discernable vision. One that appeared tailored to trying to compete under ownership limitations. There is not that now. Literally, when Williams left (for whatever reason he left) - any sort of recognizable plan left with him. Certainly no one since him has articulated a plan other than massive cutting of payroll. And no one here now has articulated how they plan to compete under whatever strictures have been placed.

With Williams' approach, I had hope because I could see the plan. The minors emphasis. The Boddy hire. Trades aimed at exploiting and finding value. Etc. Now? All I see is indiscriminate gutting and haphhazrd incompetent knee-jerk back-filling.

I am not going to go down the Boddy hole, so I am going to leave that alone.

With regard to Williams, I didn't say he is a martyr, I said "some kind of martyr" but that is beside the point. But, either way, ridiculous framing? That is what everyone is doing in this thread, lol.

Williams is literally the child and nephew of owners. He is part of the ownership group. He took over and immediately fire sold the team and started a "rebuild"

I was completely on the board at the time, but now that I am a little older and wiser I see it for what it was: a con by the owners to slash payroll and operate for 3-4 years with a lower payroll and making boatloads of cash.

I would much rather have Williams in charge than Krall, but that is an extremely low bar to clear. Krall is completely incompetent. Williams was mostly incompetent.

[membengal]

It literally never mattered to me who he was related to because he had a plan to try and compete under the terms that make that hard in Cincinnati. When he left, that apparently left with him.

[MoneyInTheBank]

I am not going to go down the Boddy hole, so I am going to leave that alone.

That's what she said

[RedTeamGo!]

It literally never mattered to me who he was related to because he had a plan to try and compete under the terms that make that hard in Cincinnati. When he left, that apparently left with him.

His “plan” was to completely tank and be horrible for years to accumulate draft picks (very original stuff) and then he panicked and traded away valuable minor league assets for Puig and Matt Kemp (lol), Trammell for Bauer (good trade) and sign Moustakas (one of the worst free agent signings in history), Castellanos (great signing but attached those opt-outs so only got a tease), and Shogo (one of the worst free agent signings in history). The crown jewel of the tanking with regard to the draft was Nick Senzel, who is a complete and utter bust. India and Stephenson are very good. Hunter Greene we can dream on, but he’s already had TJ and suddenly his velocity is pedestrian. I still have hopes with how awesome he looked against Atlanta and LA. But, if he’s a 95-96 mph pitcher , he’s just a guy. He needs to sit at 100 to be special.

So, we are basically yearning for the days of Dick Williams, whom was one of the worst GMs in baseball and for the cherry on top a complete nepotism hire.

Call me crazy, but I would just like the Reds to interview a bunch of candidates and hire the best. Insane stuff, I know.

[Ron Madden]

His plan was to reduce payroll long enough to rebuild the Reds developmental system and then spend what was left of the savings on Reds payroll.

He did rebuild the developmental system and spent the savings on 2019 and 2020 payroll. The player signings just didn't work out as well as planned.

[bah1286]

His plan was to reduce payroll long enough to rebuild the Reds developmental system and then spend what was left of the savings on Reds payroll.

He did rebuild the developmental system and spent the savings on 2019 and 2020 payroll. The player signings just didn't work out as well as planned.

The Moustakas signing did not work out. Bringing in Gray, Bauer, Miley, Castellanos all worked. Moustakas looked like a bad signing at the time and has certainly been that way and that one screw up cost us wins at the time and has likely been a major factor in where we are now. Being cheap and allowing one bad deal destroy everything is a problem.

[MoneyInTheBank]

Hunter Greene we can dream on, but he’s already had TJ and suddenly his velocity is pedestrian. I still have hopes with how awesome he looked against Atlanta and LA. But, if he’s a 95-96 mph pitcher , he’s just a guy. He needs to sit at 100 to be special.

I'm not quite understanding this take on Hunter Greene. His average fastball his last 2 starts were 95.8 and 96.6. That is top 10 in MLB starter velocity. Sitting at 100 is unprecedented. Why does he need 1 of 1 velocity vs. top 10 velocity to be special?

[RedTeamGo!]

His plan was to reduce payroll long enough to rebuild the Reds developmental system and then spend what was left of the savings on Reds payroll.

He did rebuild the developmental system and spent the savings on 2019 and 2020 payroll. The player signings just didn't work out as well as planned.

Yeah, I used to buy this, not anymore

[RedTeamGo!]

I'm not quite understanding this take on Hunter Greene. His average fastball his last 2 starts were 95.8 and 96.6. That is top 10 in MLB starter velocity. Sitting at 100 is unprecedented. Why does he need 1 of 1 velocity vs. top 10 velocity to be special?

The results (in a small sample size) speak for themselves. When he sits 95-96 he hasn’t been effective. Quite the opposite, really. This happened at AAA as well, his velo went down to 95 and he started getting hit. I don’t know why, but it is what it do.

[RedsManRick]

No one is saying he is a martyr. That's ridiculous framing. Stop it.

People are saying under Williams there was a discernable vision. One that appeared tailored to trying to compete under ownership limitations. There is not that now. Literally, when Williams left (for whatever reason he left) - any sort of recognizable plan left with him. Certainly no one since him has articulated a plan other than massive cutting of payroll. And no one here now has articulated how they plan to compete under whatever strictures have been placed.

With Williams' approach, I had hope because I could see the plan. The minors emphasis. The Boddy hire. Trades aimed at exploiting and finding value. Etc. Now? All I see is indiscriminate gutting and haphhazrd incompetent knee-jerk back-filling.

Yes. This very much has the same feeling as the Dan O'Brien era. Take whatever money you happen to have, throw it at some mediocre veterans who will accept it, and call it "doing our best to compete within our available resources".

[Patrick Bateman]

It literally never mattered to me who he was related to because he had a plan to try and compete under the terms that make that hard in Cincinnati. When he left, that apparently left with him.

Ya I mean, pure speculation. But maybe there was an internal power struggle between the Williams and the Castellanis, with differing vision of budgets, and effect investing in wins now could have on the brand.

It seems like if that happened, Castellini won, and here we are.


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[757690]

No one is saying he is a martyr. That's ridiculous framing. Stop it.

People are saying under Williams there was a discernable vision. One that appeared tailored to trying to compete under ownership limitations. There is not that now. Literally, when Williams left (for whatever reason he left) - any sort of recognizable plan left with him. Certainly no one since him has articulated a plan other than massive cutting of payroll. And no one here now has articulated how they plan to compete under whatever strictures have been placed.

With Williams' approach, I had hope because I could see the plan. The minors emphasis. The Boddy hire. Trades aimed at exploiting and finding value. Etc. Now? All I see is indiscriminate gutting and haphhazrd incompetent knee-jerk back-filling.

The first three years of Williams plan was exactly like this plan. Tear down the team so that his family could make the most amount of money. There were no trades at exploiting and finding value at first. He traded their two best players for total crap and he knew it and didn’t care. It was done to create a team that lost on purpose. He literally said on draft day that he wished they had lost more games. You like that freaking plan???!!!!!

They did spend some later, and did try to win, I will grant that, but the tanking Williams created decimated the team so that all that did was bring them to around a .500 team.

So that is the plan you like? Many years of losing on purpose, putting up the worst team possible, then spending enough to get to .500?

You say you can’t see the plan now, but that’s only because it’s at the beginning. No one could see the Williams plan at first either. You really thought you could see the Williams plan when Scott Feldman was their best pitcher?

There is a clear plan now, which is to get younger and cheaper. They did exactly that this offseason, adding many strong prospects and lowering their payroll now and in the future. A few years from now, we will see if it pays off, if the Reds stick to it, and if they develop good, young, talent. The plan may not work, but its the same plan Williams enacted. ‘

It’s beyond hypocritical, it’s anti factual and anti logical to say that Krall has no plan while Williams had a good plan. They are starting out exactly the same.

[M2]

Ya I mean, pure speculation. But maybe there was an internal power struggle between the Williams and the Castellanis, with differing vision of budgets, and effect investing in wins now could have on the brand.

It seems like if that happened, Castellini won, and here we are.

I've been alive long enough to remember Williams ownership of the Reds (hello 1982). That family never met a dime it didn't want to squeeze. Williamses, Castellinis, Lindners - they're all the same species. The Williamses in 2022, including Dick, will be cashing their revenue sharing checks with a smile.

[membengal]

Ya I mean, pure speculation. But maybe there was an internal power struggle between the Williams and the Castellanis, with differing vision of budgets, and effect investing in wins now could have on the brand.

It seems like if that happened, Castellini won, and here we are.


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That is literally the thing that makes the most sense. One owner's kid appproach winning out over the other owner's kid vision. It just so happens, that the owners kid vision I would have wanted lost the power struggle.

Saying that acknowledges that perhaps a better approach would have been a vision that is not formed from owner off-spring. But as between what Williams was doing and what PhilC appears to be doing...yeesh.