Jonathan India

[Revering4Blue]

I agree with RTG. Given that they're not going to run a top 10 payroll that would enable them to both keep their best in house talent and add meaningful FA talent on top of it, the problem has been precisely their unwillingness to trade the good talent that wasn't enough to actually win with.

They've been much too content with the strategy of building a 80 win talent roster made most of in-house, hoping for a combination of health and luck to sneak them in, and then trading the talent away at discount rates once they've lost most of their trade value.

While absolutely true, it isn’t (and hasn’t) always been holding on to prime chips too long. The obvious cases in point are/were Chapman and Frazier. There’s no doubt both would have garnered significantly more at the ‘16 deadline than December of ‘15.


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[VR]

It appears India hit the weight room in the off-season….perhaps with hopes of upping his power game, with a mindset change at the plate as well.
At the end of the day, I think he is best suited now for 3b and batting 2nd.


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[Wonderful Monds]

False

Off the top of my head, players they held on too long:

Dunn
Frazier
Barnhart
Bruce
Phillips
Bailey
Cueto
Cozart
Chapman
Iglesias
Leake

Just ones I thought of in 10 seconds

The reds actually traded Castillo and Mahle exactly when they should have and folks are acting like the Reds are the Rays. It’s silly.

I actually kind of agree with FCB in a sense with this list, most of that talent isn’t worth keeping to begin with. Too many Mahle’s and not enough Castillo’s.

I’d say of the talent that’s been on the roster the last decade or so, the only ones you really would say had a good case to receive all-star level extensions were Votto, Cueto, Chapman and Castillo here in the near future. The rest of those players turned in an above average season for a stretch, but mostly had massive warts aside from that. They really haven’t churned out too many actually consistently great players in quite a while.

[RedTeamGo!]

I actually kind of agree with FCB in a sense with this list, most of that talent isn’t worth keeping to begin with. Too many Mahle’s and not enough Castillo’s.

I’d say of the talent that’s been on the roster the last decade or so, the only ones you really would say had a good case to receive all-star level extensions were Votto, Cueto, Chapman and Castillo here in the near future. The rest of those players turned in an above average season for a stretch, but mostly had massive warts aside from that. They really haven’t churned out too many actually consistently great players in quite a while.

I agree not many players deserved extensions, which was my point - they held on to them for too long.

[Wonderful Monds]

I agree not many players deserved extensions, which was my point - they held on to them for too long.

Sort of, I suppose. Thing is, most of those guys, I don’t see how they really would’ve received a significantly better return had they traded them earlier at a point that really would’ve made sense otherwise. They notably panicked on Chapman and actually traded him too soon. They arguably maximized the return for Leake getting Duvall back for him.

They should’ve traded Frazier at the deadline when he was still the hottest he’d ever been in his career sure. And maybe sold high on Iglesias, but he mostly had red flags that they probably weren’t ever going to get a huge difference maker for him.

Aside from that though, Barnhart never had much value at all, trading Phillips wouldn’t have made sense given that he was a fairly valuable contributor to a handful of contending teams and didn’t really have any value left past that point. They could’ve traded Bruce after the 2013 season I guess, but I think most of us expected them to still have something left in the tank for 2014. Bailey had sort of the same issue as Bruce and Phillips, you could’ve traded him but he was a pretty big cog in the rotation at that point.

IMO the problem really still kind of just is that they don’t spend money to supplement the talent they have once it actually appears. On top of being not that good at consistently developing talent to begin with outside of the late 00s and early 2010s.

[Revering4Blue]

Sort of, I suppose. Thing is, most of those guys, I don’t see how they really would’ve received a significantly better return had they traded them earlier at a point that really would’ve made sense otherwise. They notably panicked on Chapman and actually traded him too soon. They arguably maximized the return for Leake getting Duvall back for him.

They should’ve traded Frazier at the deadline when he was still the hottest he’d ever been in his career sure. And maybe sold high on Iglesias, but he mostly had red flags that they probably weren’t ever going to get a huge difference maker for him.

Aside from that though, Barnhart never had much value at all, trading Phillips wouldn’t have made sense given that he was a fairly valuable contributor to a handful of contending teams and didn’t really have any value left past that point. They could’ve traded Bruce after the 2013 season I guess, but I think most of us expected them to still have something left in the tank for 2014. Bailey had sort of the same issue as Bruce and Phillips, you could’ve traded him but he was a pretty big cog in the rotation at that point.

IMO the problem really still kind of just is that they don’t spend money to supplement the talent they have once it actually appears. On top of being not that good at consistently developing talent to begin with outside of the late 00s and early 2010s.

I don’t disagree with this. But whether or not they kept players for “too long” and could have received more is kind of beside the point that RTG is/was making, in my view.

His main point, as I’m reading it, is that there are many over the top responses here about trading away any potential future cornerstones - whether or not India falls into that category remains to be seen - with several seasons of control left simply because they traded two prime chips with more than 1 year of control left - a radical departure from their usual MO.


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[Wonderful Monds]

I don’t disagree with this. But whether or not they kept players for “too long” and could have received more is kind of beside the point that RTG is/was making, in my view.

His main point, as I’m reading it, is that there are many over the top responses here about trading away any potential future cornerstones - whether or not India falls into that category remains to be seen - with several seasons of control left simply because they traded two prime chips with more than 1 year of control left - a radical departure from their usual MO.


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It’s a bit of an exaggeration in a literal sense sure, but I understand where people are coming from. It’s not just Castillo and Mahle, Winker was traded as pre-season with multiple years of control left. Suarez was too, and has a history of being a fan favorite despite his recent down years. Castellanos walked without an offer from the Reds. They let Miley go for free who was just their best pitcher in 2021 and threw a no hitter.

I typically see those comments from more “average” fans on twitter as referenced earlier, and the frustration is warranted. The Reds should consider themselves lucky enough of those people still care enough to be pissed off or cynical about it.

[RedTeamGo!]

It’s a bit of an exaggeration in a literal sense sure, but I understand where people are coming from. It’s not just Castillo and Mahle, Winker was traded as pre-season with multiple years of control left. Suarez was too, and has a history of being a fan favorite despite his recent down years. Castellanos walked without an offer from the Reds. They let Miley go for free who was just their best pitcher in 2021 and threw a no hitter.

I typically see those comments from more “average” fans on twitter as referenced earlier, and the frustration is warranted. The Reds should consider themselves lucky enough of those people still care enough to be pissed off or cynical about it.

Touche, however, this is very recent memory. Historically the Reds have held on to their trade chips too long. I am not going to lie and say I’m happy with the direction the Reds went the last 12 months. It was a bitter pill to swallow. However, this idea that the reds have always traded their good players early and often is just not based in reality. If anything I would argue they are trying something new (to them). It stinks, but at least it resembles a plan. Not saying it will work, in fact, I think it will likely blow up in their faces. I think they are stockpiling and the plan is to push for the playoffs when Votto is off the payroll. Let’s be honest, Votto is toast. It’s not his fault the Reds are too cheap to build up a good roster around him and let him have 200 ABs a season, but it’s reality. Until Votto is off the team this team is not going to spend money.

[Revering4Blue]

Touche, however, this is very recent memory. Historically the Reds have held on to their trade chips too long. I am not going to lie and say I’m happy with the direction the Reds went the last 12 months. It was a bitter pill to swallow. However, this idea that the reds have always traded their good players early and often is just not based in reality. If anything I would argue they are trying something new (to them). It stinks, but at least it resembles a plan. Not saying it will work, in fact, I think it will likely blow up in their faces. I think they are stockpiling and the plan is to push for the playoffs when Votto is off the payroll. Let’s be honest, Votto is toast. It’s not his fault the Reds are too cheap to build up a good roster around him and let him have 200 ABs a season, but it’s reality. Until Votto is off the team this team is not going to spend money.

This is exactly what I fear will happen.


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[Crumbley]

This is honestly getting tired. Historically the reds are way more known for holding on to their homegrown players too long than trading them early.

Ownership just threatened to move the team, no one is going to be nice to them until they win.

[Tony Cloninger]

I read where India HBP was so bad he was in danger of losing his calf. Why is he not on the DL?

[RedTeamGo!]

Ownership just threatened to move the team, no one is going to be nice to them until they win.

In no way is anyone with ownership seeing this stuff haha

[Sea Ray]

He's beat up. We have a guy like Steer itching to get up here and play some 2B. Sit India for awhile, let him get healthy and let's see what we got in Steer

[Z-Fly]

I'm no expert, but maybe the Reds should quit taking third basement and moving them to more taxing positions. I can't say for sure that it is all directly connected, but they've all had injuries, hitting issues, or both. They are currently 0/4 (Senzel, India, Moose, and Geno).

I just recall the Reds switching Aaron Boone from 3B to 2B, and he turned into a trash can at the plate. Then when he was moved back to 3B, he slowly regained his form.

[OldFashionedRed]

I read where India HBP was so bad he was in danger of losing his calf. Why is he not on the DL?

Where did you read that?