Turn Off Ads?
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 40 of 40

Thread: 2023 Arizona Fall League

  1. #31
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    9,109

    Re: 2023 Arizona Fall League

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I think these guys succeed or fail on their own. The value of coaches is way overblown IMO. Players put in the time and players make the adjustments. The coach arranges for a batting practice pitcher or throws it himself and when the player succeeds they credit the coach. It makes a nice story, but Coaches don’t make the difference IMO. The organizations that consistently “develop” players do it because they are better at identifying players who are likely to succeed. It’s not because they do a better job arranging batting practice or finding a bullpen catcher.
    I'm not sure I can disagree with this more. Finding good coaches-- and allowing them to coach-- is vital, IMO, to a burgeoning farm.

  2. Likes:

    Brisco (10-18-2022),texasdave (10-18-2022)


  3. Turn Off Ads?
  4. #32
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Madison, MS
    Posts
    954

    Re: 2023 Arizona Fall League

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    I'm not sure I can disagree with this more. Finding good coaches-- and allowing them to coach-- is vital, IMO, to a burgeoning farm.
    Agreed. I have yet to read an MLB memoir where the star did not credit their success to one or more coaches that had them at a pivotal point in their career. Perhaps this was all fluff or perhaps they are all just wrong... but intuitively, it makes sense to me. That said, i guess the counter argument is that by the time they are in a professional league, proper coaching has far less of an effect. Again i would disagree.

    I had the privilege of watching a coach work with a still youngish adam dunn and from what i observed, this coach (no I will not name him since I am not trying to dime out a coach with this... merely use him as an example) had a detrimental effect on Dunn's results because Dunn was so much in his head trying to do what that coach asked that he lost a lot of his confidence at the plate. I mention this to say, even if you disagree that a good coach can help development... you have to accept that a bad coach can hurt it.

  5. Likes:

    westofyou (10-18-2022)

  6. #33
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,187

    Re: 2023 Arizona Fall League

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I think these guys succeed or fail on their own. The value of coaches is way overblown IMO. Players put in the time and players make the adjustments. The coach arranges for a batting practice pitcher or throws it himself and when the player succeeds they credit the coach. It makes a nice story, but Coaches don’t make the difference IMO. The organizations that consistently “develop” players do it because they are better at identifying players who are likely to succeed. It’s not because they do a better job arranging batting practice or finding a bullpen catcher.
    That is a very naive viewpoint. Do you think all white league ML players succeeded “on their own”? You must see that a lot of them would have been on the bench or not even in the league in favor of superior black and Latino players who were not allowed to play in the ML.
    MLB has a long history of “helping” certain players at the expense of others.

  7. #34
    Member Kingspoint's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    All around
    Posts
    10,478

    Re: 2023 Arizona Fall League

    Quote Originally Posted by Betterread View Post
    That is a very naive viewpoint. Do you think all white league ML players succeeded “on their own”? You must see that a lot of them would have been on the bench or not even in the league in favor of superior black and Latino players who were not allowed to play in the ML.
    MLB has a long history of “helping” certain players at the expense of others.
    Football is worse.
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."

  8. #35
    Member mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    28,389

    Re: 2023 Arizona Fall League

    Quote Originally Posted by Betterread View Post
    That is a very naive viewpoint. Do you think all white league ML players succeeded “on their own”? You must see that a lot of them would have been on the bench or not even in the league in favor of superior black and Latino players who were not allowed to play in the ML.
    MLB has a long history of “helping” certain players at the expense of others.
    If you are talking about providing opportunity I can see it. What does that have to do with coaching turning a poor player into something better?
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

  9. #36
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,187

    Re: 2023 Arizona Fall League

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    If you are talking about providing opportunity I can see it. What does that have to do with coaching turning a poor player into something better?
    Coaching, opportunity and athletic ability are all intertwined. Is your point is that good players are just naturally good, without any help, and players that show weaknesses early in their development cannot improve?
    Josh Hamilton was born to play baseball, and yet he needed a ton of help to make the majors.
    Last edited by Betterread; 10-18-2022 at 07:42 PM.

  10. Likes:

    Kingspoint (10-18-2022)

  11. #37
    Member mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    28,389

    Re: 2023 Arizona Fall League

    Quote Originally Posted by Betterread View Post
    Coaching, opportunity and athletic ability are all intertwined. Is your point is that good players are just naturally good, without any help, and players that show weaknesses early in their development cannot improve?
    Josh Hamilton was born to play baseball, and yet he needed a ton of help to make the majors.
    My point is players mostly become what they are going to be based on their own ability and work ethic. Coaches assist in that process in a minor way by taking time with guys and arranging extra hitting or defense drills, but I don’t believe that hey have some magic skill that turns bad players into good ones. When players are crediting coaches, it’s because they are acknowledging the time taken to work with players not because they have some special techniques that turns Clark Kent into Superman. Any coach has the ability to take time to work with guys. The players are the ones creating the improvement, so I don’t think it matters that much who the coach is as long as he’s not derelict in his duties.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

  12. #38
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Southwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,652

    Re: 2023 Arizona Fall League

    Honestly, I think bad coaching hurts a prospect more than good coaching helps.

    Homer Bailey had horrible coaching … and everyone blamed him for being “uncoachable.” But by his own words, he had six different coaches telling him six different things - sometimes the exact opposite of what other coaches were telling him.
    “I think I throw the ball as hard as anyone. The ball just doesn't get there as fast.” — Eddie Bane

    “We know we're better than this ... but we can't prove it.” — Tony Gwynn

  13. #39
    Member RustyJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    485

    Re: 2023 Arizona Fall League

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    My point is players mostly become what they are going to be based on their own ability and work ethic. Coaches assist in that process in a minor way by taking time with guys and arranging extra hitting or defense drills, but I don’t believe that hey have some magic skill that turns bad players into good ones. When players are crediting coaches, it’s because they are acknowledging the time taken to work with players not because they have some special techniques that turns Clark Kent into Superman. Any coach has the ability to take time to work with guys. The players are the ones creating the improvement, so I don’t think it matters that much who the coach is as long as he’s not derelict in his duties.
    If we had the same coaching and training staff from 1997, we’d have a bunch of guys throwing up 88-92 and hoping for weak ground balls.

    Maybe you could argue within the parameters of mlb employed coaches at any given moment in time, the differences from top to bottom are negligible, but I think it’s clear players don’t just exist and develop on their own little island.

  14. #40
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    9,109

    Re: 2023 Arizona Fall League

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    My point is players mostly become what they are going to be based on their own ability and work ethic. Coaches assist in that process in a minor way by taking time with guys and arranging extra hitting or defense drills, but I don’t believe that hey have some magic skill that turns bad players into good ones. When players are crediting coaches, it’s because they are acknowledging the time taken to work with players not because they have some special techniques that turns Clark Kent into Superman. Any coach has the ability to take time to work with guys. The players are the ones creating the improvement, so I don’t think it matters that much who the coach is as long as he’s not derelict in his duties.
    Again, I don't think any athlete, coach, or sports professional would agree with this.

    You need talent-- lots of it-- to get to the major leagues. You also need good coaching that can develop you into a quality player, help develop your pitches (or batting stance or defensive footwork or approach or any of the hundreds of little things that make you better) or just improve your approach. It's mental and physical too-- and 90% pitching and the other half hitting. You need to be really lucky as well. And largely healthy.

    None of that stuff is mutially exclusive, of course.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | cumberlandreds | Gallen5862 | Plus Plus | Powel Crosley | RedlegJake | The Operator