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Thread: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

  1. #46
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    Well, if something like that gets you into Reds HOF, who was last Red to lead the NL(actually all of MLB) in stolen bases? That would be Bobby Tolan and he tied nobody and was the only one not named Lou Brock who did it from 1966-1974.
    Bobby Tolan looked as if he was the second coming of Vada Pinson his first couple of seasons with the Reds, which was appropriate since the Reds acquired Tolan for Pinson before the 1969 season, a trade that also brought the Reds Wayne Granger. Granger had 2 or 3 good seasons as a Reds relief pitcher and made the Reds HOF. Tolan had two great seasons and one good season as a Red but is not in the Reds HOF.
    In 1969 Tolan had a batting line of .305 BA/.347 OBP/.474 SLG with 21 HR, 93 RBI (9th in NL) and 26 steals. In 1970, as foster15 noted, Tolan lead the NL with 57 stolen bases, and he also hit .316/.384/.475 with 16 HR and 80 RBI. He also played good defense in centerfield, second in the NL in putouts in 1970, and lead the NL in putouts in 1972. He missed all of 1971 after injuring his Achilles tendon in an off-season basketball game. In 1972 he hit .283/.334/.386 with 8 HR and 82 RBI, and 42 stolen bases. His WAR scores for 1969, 1970 and 1972 were 5.3, 5.4, and 4.9. His numbers in those seasons could be placed in Vada Pinson's career stats and not look out of place.
    Sadly, his career collapsed after 1972, and he left the Reds under a bit of a cloud following the 1973 season, when he was still only 27 years old. He bounced around with the Padres, Phils and Pirates, and was out of the majors by 1979.
    Were his three great/good seasons enough for the Reds HOF? I don't know. It does seem to me that if Wayne Granger deserved to be inducted, then so does Tolan.
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  4. #47
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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Bobby Tolan looked as if he was the second coming of Vada Pinson his first couple of seasons with the Reds, which was appropriate since the Reds acquired Tolan for Pinson before the 1969 season, a trade that also brought the Reds Wayne Granger. Granger had 2 or 3 good seasons as a Reds relief pitcher and made the Reds HOF. Tolan had two great seasons and one good season as a Red but is not in the Reds HOF.
    In 1969 Tolan had a batting line of .305 BA/.347 OBP/.474 SLG with 21 HR, 93 RBI (9th in NL) and 26 steals. In 1970, as foster15 noted, Tolan lead the NL with 57 stolen bases, and he also hit .316/.384/.475 with 16 HR and 80 RBI. He also played good defense in centerfield, second in the NL in putouts in 1970, and lead the NL in putouts in 1972. He missed all of 1971 after injuring his Achilles tendon in an off-season basketball game. In 1972 he hit .283/.334/.386 with 8 HR and 82 RBI, and 42 stolen bases. His WAR scores for 1969, 1970 and 1972 were 5.3, 5.4, and 4.9. His numbers in those seasons could be placed in Vada Pinson's career stats and not look out of place.
    Sadly, his career collapsed after 1972, and he left the Reds under a bit of a cloud following the 1973 season, when he was still only 27 years old. He bounced around with the Padres, Phils and Pirates, and was out of the majors by 1979.
    Were his three great/good seasons enough for the Reds HOF? I don't know. It does seem to me that if Wayne Granger deserved to be inducted, then so does Tolan.
    Nice summary RB. I would like to add two tidbits.

    1. I never thought Tolan was really that good of a fielder. I remember some mis-played fly balls, especially in that 1972 World Series.

    2. Tolan's Achilles injury turned out to be a blessing in disguise. If he had been available in 1971, the Reds would never have traded Duffy and Geishert for George Foster. Also, that injury also made it obvious to Bob Howsam how the Reds needed to focus more on speed and might have played a part in the Morgan trade.

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  6. #48
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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Bobby Tolan looked as if he was the second coming of Vada Pinson his first couple of seasons with the Reds, which was appropriate since the Reds acquired Tolan for Pinson before the 1969 season, a trade that also brought the Reds Wayne Granger. Granger had 2 or 3 good seasons as a Reds relief pitcher and made the Reds HOF. Tolan had two great seasons and one good season as a Red but is not in the Reds HOF.
    In 1969 Tolan had a batting line of .305 BA/.347 OBP/.474 SLG with 21 HR, 93 RBI (9th in NL) and 26 steals. In 1970, as foster15 noted, Tolan lead the NL with 57 stolen bases, and he also hit .316/.384/.475 with 16 HR and 80 RBI. He also played good defense in centerfield, second in the NL in putouts in 1970, and lead the NL in putouts in 1972. He missed all of 1971 after injuring his Achilles tendon in an off-season basketball game. In 1972 he hit .283/.334/.386 with 8 HR and 82 RBI, and 42 stolen bases. His WAR scores for 1969, 1970 and 1972 were 5.3, 5.4, and 4.9. His numbers in those seasons could be placed in Vada Pinson's career stats and not look out of place.
    Sadly, his career collapsed after 1972, and he left the Reds under a bit of a cloud following the 1973 season, when he was still only 27 years old. He bounced around with the Padres, Phils and Pirates, and was out of the majors by 1979.
    Were his three great/good seasons enough for the Reds HOF? I don't know. It does seem to me that if Wayne Granger deserved to be inducted, then so does Tolan.
    That's a good case for Tolan. I knew he had some good years but didn't how many for sure. He was hurt the first year I kept up with the Reds in 1971. He had a great comeback year in 72 and then just fell off the table. His ending with the Reds wasn't good. IIRC, he was feuding with the front office and wondered into the radio booth at some point and made some bad comments on the air. His bad ending may have played some part in him not getting in for a time.
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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    If one is to consider Lou Piniella, then you also have to consider Pat Moran.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    Quote Originally Posted by cumberlandreds View Post
    That's a good case for Tolan. I knew he had some good years but didn't how many for sure. He was hurt the first year I kept up with the Reds in 1971. He had a great comeback year in 72 and then just fell off the table. His ending with the Reds wasn't good. IIRC, he was feuding with the front office and wondered into the radio booth at some point and made some bad comments on the air. His bad ending may have played some part in him not getting in for a time.
    Here's a write up that explains the Tolan situation and at the end, you can probably understand why the Reds don't induct him. Basically, the assumption is he has a very bitter taste toward the organization and probably wouldn't be able to fake it through the ceremony.

    https://www.redlegnation.com/2017/04...f-bobby-tolan/

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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    Here's a write up that explains the Tolan situation and at the end, you can probably understand why the Reds don't induct him. Basically, the assumption is he has a very bitter taste toward the organization and probably wouldn't be able to fake it through the ceremony.

    https://www.redlegnation.com/2017/04...f-bobby-tolan/
    Thanks, I couldn't remember what happened exactly. Just a shame. He was really good for a short time. Also terrible what happened to his son. You are probably right, Tolan would probably be too bitter to comeback for a HOF induction.
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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    If one is to consider Lou Piniella, then you also have to consider Pat Moran.
    Agreed, but I would go with Piniella first because I want him to be around to enjoy it, and also so that we fans can have another reason to reminisce about the 1990 club.
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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    If one is to consider Lou Piniella, then you also have to consider Pat Moran.
    Moran couldn't throw a base as far as Pinella. That would rule him out.
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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    Mentions of Granger on here got me to thinking about relief pitchers, and so I have another name to suggest, Jim Brosnan, (and I apologize if he's already been mentioned). Really surprises me that Brosnan is not in already, especially given his being a hometown kid and also author of what is still one of the best baseball books, The Long Season. Anyway, Brosnan was 29-14 over 5 seasons with the Reds, 3.04 ERA, 3.17 FIP, 20th in the MVP voting in 1961 when he threw 80 innings of 3.04 and got 16 saves.

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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    Quote Originally Posted by cumberlandreds View Post
    Thanks, I couldn't remember what happened exactly. Just a shame. He was really good for a short time. Also terrible what happened to his son. You are probably right, Tolan would probably be too bitter to comeback for a HOF induction.
    I really wish that something could be done to honor him and close the book on Bobby Tolan's Reds career on a happy note. When you think about it, the Reds of now have really no ties with the Reds that Tolan probably places blame with. He's forever a former Reds starting position player on two world series teams who also played key roles in them getting there. The highlights of his career took place with the Reds.

    I'm sure the fans don't hold a grudge. Maybe there are some former Reds teammates that might though. Bench maybe? I doubt Rose does. Morgan and May are both gone now. Perez doesn't seem like the type that would. Gullet, Nolan, Billingham, Carroll? Borbon who's also passed, probably didn't appreciate those misplays that tagged a loss on him in game 7. Sparky who's obviously also gone, seemed to put part of the blame on himself as far as Tolan goes so I doubt that has anything to do with it. I doubt there's really any hard feelings left after almost 50 years. You would think that even Tolan could have put aside any hard feelings to mend fences with the franchise he will forever be associated with.

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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    I really wish that something could be done to honor him and close the book on Bobby Tolan's Reds career on a happy note. When you think about it, the Reds of now have really no ties with the Reds that Tolan probably places blame with. He's forever a former Reds starting position player on two world series teams who also played key roles in them getting there. The highlights of his career took place with the Reds.

    I'm sure the fans don't hold a grudge. Maybe there are some former Reds teammates that might though. Bench maybe? I doubt Rose does. Morgan and May are both gone now. Perez doesn't seem like the type that would. Gullet, Nolan, Billingham, Carroll? Borbon who's also passed, probably didn't appreciate those misplays that tagged a loss on him in game 7. Sparky who's obviously also gone, seemed to put part of the blame on himself as far as Tolan goes so I doubt that has anything to do with it. I doubt there's really any hard feelings left after almost 50 years. You would think that even Tolan could have put aside any hard feelings to mend fences with the franchise he will forever be associated with.
    Tolan really only had three good seasons though. 1969, 1970 and 1972. He missed all of 1971 and 1973 is when all his problems started. Should get in ahead of guys who had 8 to 10 good seasons in Cincinati?
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    The Reds Hall of Fame is a "big hall", and I think it should be. It is like an alumni association -- the players want to get together and trade war stories, and the fans want to see all of those guys who were stars in their youth and remember those days. So I don't see any problem with fringe candidates being honored.

    If you want exclusivity, go to Cooperstown.
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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Tolan really only had three good seasons though. 1969, 1970 and 1972. He missed all of 1971 and 1973 is when all his problems started. Should get in ahead of guys who had 8 to 10 good seasons in Cincinati?
    No, not ahead of guys with 8 to 10 GOOD seasons with the Reds. Who are you talking about? Other than Votto, Bruce and Phillips who aren't eligible yet, other than Reggie Sanders I cannot think of someone who fits that criteria that aren't already in since I started following in 1968.

    And 3 very good to great seasons that resulted in two world series appearances to me should qualify. And as mentioned, Wayne Granger made it with only 2 good seasons in Cincinnati.
    Last edited by foster15; 11-09-2022 at 03:52 PM.

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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    No, not ahead of guys with 8 to 10 GOOD seasons with the Reds. Who are you talking about? Other than Votto, Bruce and Phillips who aren't eligible yet, I cannot think of someone who fits that criteria that aren't already in since I started following in 1968.

    And 3 very good to great seasons that resulted in two world series appearances to me should qualify. And as mentioned, Wayne Granger made it with only 2 good seasons in Cincinnati.
    On this list at the beginning of the thread, without looking too deep, Reggie Sanders had 8 good years. Bug Holiday had 6 really strong seasons and 4 lesser seasons. Curt Walker had 7 seasons of 114 OPS+.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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    Re: Suggestions needed (next Reds HOF class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Klu View Post
    The Reds Hall of Fame is a "big hall", and I think it should be. It is like an alumni association -- the players want to get together and trade war stories, and the fans want to see all of those guys who were stars in their youth and remember those days. So I don't see any problem with fringe candidates being honored.

    If you want exclusivity, go to Cooperstown.
    Exactly it's not like this is the Yankees legacy we are talking about

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