2023 Payroll Much Lower Than $114M On Opening Day 2022

[REDREAD]

Ownership might want to be careful, I found a lot of interesting things to do with my time than watch reds games last year. Before too long I may not even remember games are on.

I hit that point last year. I still enjoy Redszone, I really don't enjoy the Reds anymore.

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The people it's really unfair to is the young players on the Reds. India, Green, etc, work their tails off for literally years or even decades to get to this point, and they get sandbagged by an ownership group that isn't interested in competing. Pathetic.

Well, if the young guys stay healthy, they will be traded in 3-4 years to a team that wants them enough to give up prospects for them. They will be ok.
I do get your point though.

[standerson]

The Reds aren't even mediocre. They are sub-mediocre.

[InsaneinthBrame]

Have you not been paying attention?

This ownership started out with a low payroll, then bumped it up around 2010 when they started to have success, then a few bad contracts resulted in slashing payroll and tanking from 2015-2019, then they bumped up payroll again until last year when they started slashing it again.

They have been flipping and flopping on the payroll constantly from the day they bought the team. None of this is new.

That said, I think it’s clear that a change of leadership has happened in the last few years, with Phil taking over for his dad, who seemed to have gotten “too old for this ****.”

Here is payroll
2006 60.9
2007 68.5
2008 74.1
2009 73.5
2010 72.3
2011 75.9
2012 82.2
2013 110.5
2014 112
2015 117.7
2016 93.1
2017 82.3
2018 101.1
2019 126.4
2020 143.1
2021 123
2022 113.5

The sad thing is our payroll is getting close to lost decade level and we know revenue today is way higher than 2000's.

Ownership is singing Money Money

[InsaneinthBrame]

Well, if the young guys stay healthy, they will be traded in 3-4 years to a team that wants them enough to give up prospects for them. They will be ok.
I do get your point though.[/QUOTE]

That is what is going on with Pirates you become a glorified "Minor League" team grooming players for the competent teams

[LeatherPants]

Well, if the young guys stay healthy, they will be traded in 3-4 years to a team that wants them enough to give up prospects for them. They will be ok.
I do get your point though.

That is what is going on with Pirates you become a glorified "Minor League" team grooming players for the competent teams[/QUOTE]



The last year or so there's been a bunch of people on this site saying "at least they aren't the Pirates". Guess what, they are the Pirates.

[REDREAD]

Well, if the young guys stay healthy, they will be traded in 3-4 years to a team that wants them enough to give up prospects for them. They will be ok.
I do get your point though.

That is what is going on with Pirates you become a glorified "Minor League" team grooming players for the competent teams

yep, we are on the Pirates model. A young Pirate player can perform well enough to get himself traded in his first arb year.
That's probably their motivation to excel (as opposed to winning, which is hopeless)

[WrongVerb]

Is there some way to punish teams for their non-competitiveness by making those teams' value decline significantly? I would be in favor of relegation, but I'm not seeing how that would work when, for instance, Louisville would still be playing in a AAA stadium if they were promoted.

[Ron Madden]

Take Away MLB's Antitrust Exemption

[LeatherPants]

Is there some way to punish teams for their non-competitiveness by making those teams' value decline significantly? I would be in favor of relegation, but I'm not seeing how that would work when, for instance, Louisville would still be playing in a AAA stadium if they were promoted.

There's no way they'd get enough votes in the league to do something like that. Owners aren't going to vote to devalue their own teams.

[Strikes Out Looking]

Is there some way to punish teams for their non-competitiveness by making those teams' value decline significantly? I would be in favor of relegation, but I'm not seeing how that would work when, for instance, Louisville would still be playing in a AAA stadium if they were promoted.

The way to punish teams is for owners to force other owners to either spend more on payroll or to forcer them from their ownership position. This hasn't happened in the MLB. Watch what happens with the Commanders in DC - if Danny boy gets a bid for the entire team that is well above the Denver amount (last team sold) of 4.5 billion, the other owners will force him to take it. I don't know how MLB's owners are structured (i.e. if it is similar to the NFL) but if its anything close, and owners realize making the Pirates/Reds/Rays either spend more or sell (and possibly move) will be good for their (other owners) pocketbooks, the Castillini days may be numbered. Unfortunately, if no other local ownership steps us, the Cincinnati Reds may also be numbered, as there is another market just a few hours south that would love to have a MLB team.

[Wayne Krivsky]

I'll take a wait and see approach before getting upset about an MLB.com article. Who knows what the offseason could bring. Maybe they go after young controllable talent via trade, and look at some bargain FA signings. I have no issue with that, especially if they are going to have the cash available to resign said young/controllable talent.....which may be a pipe dream, but I can have hope. Also very possible the Reds are playing for 2024 and won't deviate from that plan. If they want to go that route that's fine too. They can't get a respectable team on the field by then (or at least try) and I have to start really questioning some things.

I typically go to 10 or so games a year, and hardly miss a game on TV. Last year I went to 1, and finally cut the cord on my Spectrum subscription. If the Reds want to put some resources into this roster I'm right back to my old habits and will be obsessed with Reds baseball all summer. If not I'll continue to save $3,000 or so again this year.

[757690]

Is there some way to punish teams for their non-competitiveness by making those teams' value decline significantly? I would be in favor of relegation, but I'm not seeing how that would work when, for instance, Louisville would still be playing in a AAA stadium if they were promoted.

The day Bud Selig sold the Brewers so that he could become MLB commissioner, that idea became impossible. It all started then and has gotten worse and worse every year.

[MikeS21]

I fully agree that spending money on the right players can make this team immensely better. I just don’t think this FO is capable of evaluating which are the right players. They tend to usually choose wrong. If the Reds announced tomorrow that their payroll for 2023 was going to be $200 million, I’m convinced they would blow it on players who would end up being total busts.

As I said before, until they demonstrate that they can spend wiser, it really makes no difference to me if they have a $75 million payroll or a $175 million payroll. Running more expensive junk out on the field doesn’t make me feel any better than running cheap junk out there. The results are the same.

[InsaneinthBrame]

They need a non-competitive tax similar to Luxury tax. For each game under .500 you lose 1 million of your revenue sharing pool. (Limited to difference between Teams payroll and 100M)

Well baseball could create a new relegation alignment You have AL 12 teams NL 12 teams Relegation division (6)

[Wayne Krivsky]

I fully agree that spending money on the right players can make this team immensely better. I just don’t think this FO is capable of evaluating which are the right players. They tend to usually choose wrong. If the Reds announced tomorrow that their payroll for 2023 was going to be $200 million, I’m convinced they would blow it on players who would end up being total busts.

As I said before, until they demonstrate that they can spend wiser, it really makes no difference to me if they have a $75 million payroll or a $175 million payroll. Running more expensive junk out on the field doesn’t make me feel any better than running cheap junk out there. The results are the same.

That is where I would disagree a bit, and it's what actually gives me some sort of hope for the future. I think the Reds have improved vastly in terms of pitching development which is huge. I think despite the emotions behind the moves Nick Krall has shown to be a GM capable of evaluating talent, and isn't a bad guy to lead trade discussions either.

I think this front office is severely handicapped by an ownership group wanting to cut payroll for the third straight season, but I feel way more confident in this teams ability to acquire talent than I did during the Dick Williams years. I just don't trust him if the Reds are counting on him to turn this organization into Tampa Bay. More money = more room for error. The Reds need that wiggle room.