2023 Payroll Much Lower Than $114M On Opening Day 2022

[KronoRed]

Despite giving the fans the biggest finger possible the Reds will be begging for a new stadium in a few years, and the loud voices will whine we should give them everything possible or the team might move.

Gross.

[klw]

Is there some way to punish teams for their non-competitiveness by making those teams' value decline significantly? I would be in favor of relegation, but I'm not seeing how that would work when, for instance, Louisville would still be playing in a AAA stadium if they were promoted.

A few off-season ago, i posted 2 relegation based possibilities:
https://www.redszone.com/forums/show...=1#post4033586

Have 2 MLB divisions subject to promotions and relegation. Bottom 2 from the Premier League drop and top two of the First Division are promoted. You would need to have an even number of teams in each League as there will be no inter-league play. This can be done by having 14/16 or adding two expansion teams and having leagues of 16. Settle ties on a head to head record.

Assuming expansion, 2017 would look like this:

Code:
Rk Tm G W L W-L%
1 LAD NL 104 58 .642
2 CLE AL 102 60 .630
3 HOU AL 101 61 .624
4 WSN NL 97 65 .599
5 BOS AL 93 69 .574
6 ARI NL 93 69 .574
7 CHC NL 92 70 .568
8 NYY AL 91 71 .562
9 COL NL 87 75 .537
10 MIL NL 86 76 .531
11 MIN AL 85 77 .525
12 STL NL 83 79 .512
13 LAA AL 80 82 .494
14 TBR AL 80 82 .494
15 KCR AL 80 82 .494
16 TEX AL 78 84 .481

17 SEA AL 78 84 .481
18 MIA NL 77 85 .475
19 TOR AL 76 86 .469
20 PIT NL 75 87 .463
21 OAK AL 75 87 .463
22 BAL AL 75 87 .463
23 ATL NL 72 90 .444
24 SDP NL 71 91 .438
25 NYM NL 70 92 .432
26 CIN NL 68 94 .420
27 CHW AL 67 95 .414
28 PHI NL 66 96 .407
29 DET AL 64 98 .395
30 SFG NL 64 98 .395
31- expansion
32- expansion
Red teams get demoted, blue move up. Have a playoff of top 8 teams in Premier league. 1 hosts 8 , 2 host 7 etc. Anti tanking incentive would be to win games and remain in the Premier Division. In the First Division, teams would need to fight to move up and would slow a reward as even a rapid improvement would delay playoffs until they had been promoted. No worst to first in a year. Downside would be loss of the AL/ NL structure.

To try to maintain AL/NL structures, this promotion/relegation could be down on a split level with one promotion/relegation per League:

Code:
Rk Tm W L W-L% GB
1 LAD 104 58 .642 -
2 WSN 97 65 .599 7
3 ARI 93 69 .574 11
4 CHC 92 70 .568 12
5 COL 87 75 .537 17
6 MIL 86 76 .531 18
7 STL 83 79 .512 21
8 MIA 77 85 .475 27

9 PIT 75 87 .463 -
10 ATL 72 90 .444 3
11 SDP 71 91 .438 4
12 NYM 70 92 .432 5
13 CIN 68 94 .420 7
14 PHI 66 96 .407 9
15 SFG 64 98 .395 11
16. Montreal Expansion

Rk Tm W L W-L% GB
1 CLE 102 60 .630 -
2 HOU 101 61 .624 1
3 BOS 93 69 .574 9
4 NYY 91 71 .562 11
5 MIN 85 77 .525 17
6 KCR 80 82 .494 22
7 TBR 80 82 .494 22
8 LAA 80 82 .494 22

9 SEA 78 84 .481 -
10 TEX 78 84 .481 -
11 TOR 76 86 .469 2
12 OAK 75 87 .463 3
13 BAL 75 87 .463 3
14 CHW 67 95 .414 11
15 DET 64 98 .395 14
16. Portland Expansion
LAA loses tiebreaker by having losing head to head vs both TBR and KC. Top 4 in each Premier League make the playoffs 1 v4 then the AL and NL titlists go to the Series. I think I like this approach to maintain the Leagues.


I have no idea how to handle the draft in these scenarios.

[InsaneinthBrame]

I fully agree that spending money on the right players can make this team immensely better. I just don’t think this FO is capable of evaluating which are the right players. They tend to usually choose wrong. If the Reds announced tomorrow that their payroll for 2023 was going to be $200 million, I’m convinced they would blow it on players who would end up being total busts.

As I said before, until they demonstrate that they can spend wiser, it really makes no difference to me if they have a $75 million payroll or a $175 million payroll. Running more expensive junk out on the field doesn’t make me feel any better than running cheap junk out there. The results are the same.

Honestly when the Reds spend money, some has been good and some has been bad but they had interesting teams when they spent money overall on the team in 2020 and 2021. I am not a big fan of the front office at all and I get the lack of confidence in them.

[fearofpopvol1]

It's just sad. The franchise has become a joke and when Votto inevitably leaves after this season, it'll become even more of a joke.

Phil's incident last year seemed to have brought out a side from the local media not previously seen. I think the best that we can hope for is that we see that continue and that it leads to change in some way. It's a long shot, I know. But vocal writers and fans I do think can make a difference. You don't see that from Marlins/Pirates fans I don't think, but we did see Reds fans come together last year pretty loudly. Keep the pressure on. It's the best we got.

[Wayne Krivsky]

It's just sad. The franchise has become a joke and when Votto inevitably leaves after this season, it'll become even more of a joke.

Phil's incident last year seemed to have brought out a side from the local media not previously seen. I think the best that we can hope for is that we see that continue and that it leads to change in some way. It's a long shot, I know. But vocal writers and fans I do think can make a difference. You don't see that from Marlins/Pirates fans I don't think, but we did see Reds fans come together last year pretty loudly. Keep the pressure on. It's the best we got.

The social media piece really plays into what organizations are doing now as well. Not only on a local level, but we are seeing teams like Cincinnati and Oakland being a laughing stock at a national level too. The fact that the most memorable moments for the Reds of the last half decade or so is Phil Castillini and Thom Brenneman embarrassing themselves you would hope is reason enough for change.

[Kc61]

While I sympathize with all the frustrations, right now we have Nick Krall’s rebuild. He’s not taking shortcuts, “everyone must go” seems to be the word.

I don’t think Reds will be winning soon, but I’d like to see this process result in a sound young club. With the ability to add veterans and make it a winner.

This isn’t how I would do it, I don’t believe in gut rebuilds, they are cost savings devices IMO. But to be a Reds fan today, you have to focus on Hunter Greene and Elly De La Cruz.

I do believe Nick wants to succeed at this, he’s playing a tough hand. And while I often express frustration with the double dip rebuild, I’m rooting for him. Let’s hope for meaningful progress each season coming up.

[Tony Cloninger]

This team needs a hardcore Reds Ultra Fan group to possibly perform some intimidating tactics short of violence of course. Just let them know the possible implications of not doing better to perform their obligations to the fan base.

[757690]

Here is payroll
2006 60.9
2007 68.5
2008 74.1
2009 73.5
2010 72.3
2011 75.9
2012 82.2
2013 110.5
2014 112
2015 117.7
2016 93.1
2017 82.3
2018 101.1
2019 126.4
2020 143.1
2021 123
2022 113.5

The sad thing is our payroll is getting close to lost decade level and we know revenue today is way higher than 2000's.

Ownership is singing Money Money

Thanks for the data. That matches up well with what I posted.

Lets see how that matches up with other team's payrolls and wins since 2010 for some perspective:


Brewers

2022 $131,930,160 (19) - 86 wins
2021 $ 99,316,127 (19) - 95 wins
2020 $ 39,200,762 (22) - 31 wins
2019 $122,530,400 (17) - 89 wins
2018 $ 90,964,571 (26) - 96 wins
2017 $ 63,061,300 (30) - 86 wins
2016 $ 63,908,300 (30) - 73 wins
2015 $104,237,000 (20) - 68 wins
2014 $103,697,967 (16) - 82 wins
2013 $ 88,828,333 (19) - 74 wins
2012 $ 98,150,833 (13) - 83 wins
2011 $ 83,590,833 (17) - 96 wins
2010 $ 90,408,000 (17) - 77 wins


Cleveland

2022 $ 68,238,900 (27) - 92 wins
2021 $ 49,694,300 (29) - 80 wins
2020 $ 36,186,740 (24) - 35 wins
2019 $119,575,032 (19) - 93 wins
2018 $134,851,565 (15) - 91 wins
2017 $124,116,166 (18) - 102 wins
2016 $ 96,304,400 (23) - 94 wins
2015 $ 87,997,101 (26) - 81 wins
2014 $ 85,416,235 (24) - 85 wins
2013 $ 80,605,733 (23) - 92 wins
2012 $ 65,430,300 (24) - 68 wins
2011 $ 49,426,567 (26) - 80 wins
2010 $ 61,453,967 (25) - 69 wins


Rays

2022 $ 83,857,113 (25) - 86 wins
2021 $ 66,714,834 (26) - 100 wins
2020 $ 28,773,481 (28) - 40 wins
2019 $ 60,084,133 (30) - 96 wins
2018 $ 76,388,930 (28) - 90 wins
2017 $ 70,064,700 (28) - 80 wins
2016 $ 66,681,991 (29) - 68 wins
2015 $ 75,794,234 (28) - 80 wins
2014 $ 76,872,384 (27) - 77 wins
2013 $ 61,928,975 (28) - 92 wins
2012 $ 63,627,200 (26) - 90 wins
2011 $ 42,171,308 (29) - 91 wins
2010 $ 72,847,133 (22) -96 wins

Angels

2022 $188,613,096 ( 8) - 73 wins
2021 $181,966,096 ( 7) - 77 wins
2020 $ 71,248,265 ( 6) - 26 wins
2019 $158,878,583 ( 8) - 72 wins
2018 $166,649,999 ( 6) - 80 wins
2017 $166,375,833 ( 7) - 80 wins
2016 $164,673,333 ( 7) - 74 wins
2015 $146,341,583 ( 9) - 85 wins
2014 $154,546,500 ( 6) - 98 wins
2013 $137,271,250 ( 6) - 78 wins
2012 $151,381,000 ( 4) - 89 wins
2011 $141,755,666 ( 4) - 86 wins
2010 $121,113,867 ( 7) - 80 wins

Mets

2022 $264,498,338 ( 2) - 101 wins
2021 $195,448,964 ( 3) - 77 wins
2020 $ 79,937,186 ( 8) - 26 wins
2019 $158,652,231 (10) - 86 wins
2018 $150,558,844 (12) - 77 wins
2017 $154,437,460 (12) - 70 wins
2016 $135,188,085 (14) - 87 wins
2015 $101,344,283 (21) - 90 wins
2014 $ 84,951,365 (25) - 79 wins
2013 $ 93,684,590 (15) - 74 wins
2012 $ 94,508,822 (15) - 74 wins
2011 $142,797,166 ( 5) - 77 wins
2010 $126,498,096 ( 6) - 79 wins

If one takes the time to go over these numbers, one thing is clear, it's possible to win with a low payroll and it's possible to lose with a high payroll. Money is important, but spending that money wisely is more important.

Many here are calling the Reds the Pirates. I think it's worse. They are more like the Angels and Mets. They need to prove that they can be smart before I am going to care about how high their payroll is.

[RollyInRaleigh]

Makes me angry, but I am approaching an area of apathy that I’ve never felt about the Reds. Been a huge fan since 1969. I guess I’m glad I have the memories. There doesn’t seem to be anything to look forward to with the current ownership.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[standerson]

I was talking to our son "Dad, at least you got to see the Reds win."

Yea, I did. My first game was at Crosley Field.

I did some quick math. In his life time the Reds are 209 games under .500.

Same period for me, they were 412 games over .500.

Things need to change. Soon.

[REDREAD]

Another problem, the clubs that do spend money.. Yankees, Dodgers, and even the Brewers/Cards.
They have no incentive to fix the system (make bums like the Reds and Pirates spend more).
I am sure the teams that spend just see revenue sharing as an expense.
I know Stienbrenner blasted the Reds back in the Lindner era for not using revenue sharing to compete.. but look at it from their point of view.
They are going to have to write a revenue sharing check.
It's actually better for them for the Reds and Pirates to tank. It gives them an easier path to the wildcard, helps them rack up wins, makes their fanbase happy to beat up on the laughing stocks.
If the tankers were forced to try to win, the league would be closer to parity. It would be a lot harder for Milwaukee and St Louis to win 90 games, etc.

I mean, in 2020 and 2021 when the Reds were sort of competitive, we did not shed a tear that the Pirate were tanking -- and I'm not saying we should have worried about it.
The point is : none of the owners care about the tankers.

[Alpha Zero]

If an MLB owner can’t consistently support a nine figure payroll, they shouldn’t own a franchise. Full stop.

[missionhockey21]

At this point, I think they are trying to destroy fan interest with a plan to move the team and then sell it when its in a richer market.

Its the only explanation outside of them being deprived oxygen while making these decisions.

[Mitri]

Reds have had the worst PR for any sports team in recent memory. It’s unbelievably horrid. Krall is pathetic and the ownership group is far worse.

[757690]

Reds have had the worst PR for any sports team in recent memory. It’s unbelievably horrid. Krall is pathetic and the ownership group is far worse.

I don’t mind Krall being a nerd when it comes to PR, that’s not part of his job. But Phil, who seems to now be in charge is the worst I have ever seen at it, and that pretty much is his only job for the Reds.