Did the Reds really try to obtain Smoltz in exchange for Dibble?

[WrongVerb]

According to this person and the article they are posting, there was indeed an attempt by the Braves...

https://twitter.com/CregStephenson/s...72830172807169

[westofyou]

I read that as the Braves wanted Dibble and the Reds setting a high price, not the Reds pursuing Smotz per se.

Which was a good idea, since 1991 Hammond and Scudder got too many starts, Browning was below average and Randy Meyers was tried as starter.

Get Smotz and you have him and Rijo, drop Browning and Armstrong down with Hammond as #5, Meyers closing and Charlton as the two inning reliever.

Which would not have sucked that bad

[CySeymour]

The most interesting thing is that the Braves would have been willing to deal Smoltz to a division rival.

[foster15]

Back at that point in time, that doesn't seem like an outrageous proposal by the Reds. Smoltz was a 22nd round draft choice that looked like a decent(not great) starter at the time and nobody had him pegged for Cooperstown at that point in time. And Dibble looked like the 2nd coming of Nolan Ryan, only out of the bullpen.

[foster15]

The most interesting thing is that the Braves would have been willing to deal Smoltz to a division rival.

Not sure why you worded it that way. First of all the Braves weren't willing to trade Smoltz, that's what killed the dear. 2nd of all, it was the then world champion Reds offering Dibble to a division rival not the other way around.

And trading with a division rival should be the last of a GM's concerns in my opinion You're team gets a player that helps you just about every game while your division opponent gets someone that might hurt you directly 11 percent of the time. And usually when trades within the division are made it's by one team looking to be championship caliber now while the team they are trading to are trying to be the same down the road.

The Morgan trade was innerdivision. The Foster trade also. Mariono Duncan was acquired from division rival Dodgers and Billy Doran also.

I would think innerdivision would be more apt to happen with wildcards than prior as a GM can see a situation where it helps the team he's trading with win the division while at the same time helps there own team qualify for a wild card.

[Big Klu]

Intradivision trades were more common in the 70's and 80's because you saw everyone in the league more often. You played each divisional opponent 18 times (9 home and 9 away), but you saw each club in the other division 12 times (6 home and 6 away). So you were going to see that player you traded away for a significant number of games whether you traded him inside or outside the division -- therefore, you didn't really worry about it.

[klw]

According to this person and the article they are posting, there was indeed an attempt by the Braves...

https://twitter.com/CregStephenson/s...72830172807169

Just imagine how different the history of baseball for the past 30 years would have been if the Braves traded Smoltz and Glavine and only have gotten Dibble and Dunston in return.

[Bourgeois Zee]

interesting what-if with this deal:

At the beginning of the off-season, the Reds have several decisions to make. They've just suffered through a tough season wherein their pitching absolutely fell apart. Jose Rijo has asended to perennial All-Star status and is mentioned as one of the game's true aces. He's a bedrock of the rotation. Everything else is in shambles. Tom Browning received his first All-Star nod, but faded in the second half of the season. Former All-Star Jack Armstrong floundered after fading badly in 1990. Scott Scudder's third trip through the league ended up largely as his first two had-- with middling poor numbers and really bad control. Chris Hammond fared a bit better, but his peripherals-- especially a massively high BB total-- drove Pinella insane.

That poor rotation ended up costing the Reds a ton of games because the offense was its usual potent self. Just about every offensive position was league average or better and displayed solid glovework. The veteran squad looked tough.

Bowden got down to work.

First, looking to bolster that rotation, Bowden dealt Armstrong and Scott Scudder to the Indians for Greg Swindell. The soon-to-be free agent would stabilize the rotation. He then, in a blockbuster, dealt his own soon-to-be free agent, Eric Davis, and swingman Kip Gross to the LA Dodgers for Tim Belcher and John Wetteland. Bowden then swung his biggest deal of the off-season, trading Rob Dibble to Atlanta straight up for young hurler John Smoltz. That gave the Reds a rotation of Rijo, Browning, Swindell, Belcher, and Smoltz.

The Padres called about Randy Myers, and Bowden, knowing he had Weathers as a swingman, dealt the former closer for 2B/ OF Bip Roberts. (The thinking was to make him a super-sub who could play some LF, some 2B, and some 3B while hitting at the top of the batting order.) Bowden was tempted to deal John Wetteland in a package for Dave Martinez and young Willie Greene, but held off, worried that his bullpen needed innings. Wetteland stayed to become the closer. Late in the off-season, as Spring Training was underway, Bowden found Scott Bankhead on the scrap heap and grabbed him too.

Needing a CF, Cincinnati turned to prospect Reggie Sanders, who'd had a cup of coffee the season before. He cemented the lineup.

C Joe Oliver
1B Hall Morris
2B Bill Doran
SS Barry Larkin
3B Chris Sabo
LF Bip Roberts
CF Reggie Sanders
RF Paul O'Neill

SP Jose Rijo
SP John Smoltz
SP Greg Swindell
SP Tim Belcher
SP Tom Browning

Closer John Wetteland
S/U Norm Charlton
RP Scott Bankhead
RP Dwayne Henry
RP David Weathers

The Reds, led by Swindell, Rijo, and Smoltz, had the best pitching staff in the National league. Wetteland, as a closer, was a revelation, earning down-ticket consideration in both the Cy Young and MVP races. Bip Roberts enjoyed a monster season as the leadoff hitter, teaming with Larkin to terrorize opposing pitchers as the first two hitters in the lineup. while Sanders enjoyed a fantastic first full season in the Queen City. O'Neill, Sanders, Morris, and Sabo rounded out an offense that was just a bit better than league average once again and plenty good enough to see the Reds win 95 games. They eked out the NL West pennant on the last day of the season, first watching the Braves drop a 12-inning three-hour marathon to the San Diego Padres, then winning 3-2, with Rijo going seven strong on three days' rest against the Giants in San Francisco.

The Reds then faced their familiar nemesis, the Pittsburgh Pirates. Pittsburgh's offense, led by an otherworldly Barry Bonds, was able to eke out wins against Smoltz (3-2 in a heartbreaker Game One) and Swindell (4-3) before Rijo and the Reds righted the ship in Game Three. Smoltz came back to tie the series, but Swindell struggled again in Game Five, then Belcher gave up a Bonds' bomb that went an estimated 490 feet deep into the Pittsburgh night. The Pirates took the series, but the Reds had established themselves as a team on the brink.

As good as 1992 was, 1993 was bad. The Reds were decimated by free agency, poor trades, and injuries. First, Billy Doran surprisingly retired after the playoffs. That left the Reds with a hole at 2B. Then, 3rd starter Swindell went to Houston, opening up a hole in the rotation. Paul O'Neill was dealt to the Yankees for Roberto Kelly so that Sanders could move back to his natural RF. Cincinnati then dealt Charlton, unhappy playing second fiddle in the bullpen, to Seattle for LF Kevin Mitchell. The good news was that as a result of that deal, the Reds (already thin in the pen) decided to protect Trevor Hoffman instead of Tim Costo in the Expansion Draft. The bad news was that Mitchell, while an absolute monster with the bat, played less than 100 games. Larkin got hurt too. And Roberts. And free agent acquiree John Smiley. And while Rijo was his usual dominant self, Smoltz took a step backward too. The entire season was a struggle, and Lou Pinella, already burned out from having to deal with Marge and the pressure of winning, decided to take a powder after the season.

The Reds finished 4th in the NL West.

In 1994, after watching Roberts move back to San Diego in free agency, the Reds packaged RP Bobby Ayala and C Dan Wilson for 2B Brett Boone and SP Erik Hanson. They signed Jerome Walton as a short-side platoon mate and fourth OF. Bowden, as always, focused on the bullpen, adding Chuck McElroy from Chicago (LH David Weathers had been acquired by the Marlins in the Expansion Draft a year earlier, and the pen needed McElroy's LH approach) and Jeff Brantley thorugh free agency. Sabo went to Baltimore, so the Reds also added Tony Fernandez at the hot corner.

The offense, led by Mitchell, was once again well above average. But the starting staff took a couple of steps back. Rijo and Smiley were good. Hanson, when not hurt, was league average. And Smoltz was bad, then injured. His 4.14 ERA was the worst of his career. Adding to that, Tom Browning was washed, and the fifth starter's spot was a revolving door of bleh. The bullpen masked quite a bit of that-- after a solid rookie season in 1993, Trevor Hoffman found his footing as Wetteland's set-up man. McElroy was exceptional as the LH option in the pen, and Jeff Brantley was a hammer from the right side. The second iteration of the Nasty Boys-- this time four deep-- had the Reds in first place when the strike hit.

Alas.

In 1995, everything came together. Pete Schourek, acquired the season before after Browning couldn't find the strike zone without watching the ball fly out of the yard, developed into a TOR guy. What was once a weakness became a strength. And John Smoltz turned his career around with a dominant season as well. John Smiley was the Reds' 3rd TOR starter. Unfortunately, Jose Rijo got injured halfway through the season. Bowden then dealt for David Wells to give the Reds four true bell weather starters. Fifth starter Kevin Jarvis rounded out the rotation in extremely underwhelming form. But the bullpen-- my goodness. In Wetteland's free-agent-to-be swan song, he was once again dominant. Hoffman and Brantley were also once again outstanding. Bowden also added Mike Jackson to the mix, and he might have been better than all of them. The quartet shortened games and allowed the Reds to steal games when starters weren't at their best. And manager Davey Johnson knew how to pull the strings.

Offensively, Barry Larkin had perhaps his best individual season. Inserted as the leadoff hitter early in the season, he found clutch hits all season long. CF Deion Sanders, acquired from the Braves for CF Roberto Kelly, was the only player more than a couple percentage points below league average offensively, though his speed and disruptiveness added a flair for drama and captured the interest of Red fans. Ron Gant, in his only season in Cincinnati, was a godsend. Reggie Sanders had his best year. Nearly everything went right.

The Reds dominated the regular season, then swept the Dodgers in the first round of the NL playoffs. They faced the Braves with the pennant on the line and won the series, 4-3. After a Schourek/ Glavine duel in Game One went 14 innings, with the Reds coming out on top, 2-1, Smoltz won in a duel with Steve Avery in Game Two. John Smiley, Hoffman, Brantley, and, finally, Wetteland, outlasted Maddux in Game Three when Brad Clontz gave up a Hall Morris double to score Barry Larkin in the top of the 8th inning. Glavine won against Schourek in Game Four (with an Eric Gregg strike zone that was eight inches wider than the plate), then Steve Avery went six strong to shut out the Reds in Game Five against a tired but game Schourek. In Game Six, Johnson turned to Wells, the rotund former Tiger. Wells was up to the task. The portly lefty handcuffed the Braves for five strong, then Smoltz, Smiley, Hoffman, Brantley, and Wetteland closed it out.

The Reds faced Cleveland in the I-71 World Series.

The Reds turned to Schourek in Game One against Ken Hill, and Schourek delivered a one-run victory. Kenny Lofton scored on a Carlos Baerga sacrifice fly in the first inning, and Schourek blanked them from there. Thomas Howard had the big hit, a single that scored Mark Lewis in the bottom of the 6th inning, as the Reds won, 3-1. John Smiley continued the Red October with a 4-3 win over Dennis Martinez. Smoltz was cuffed around for four earned in just 2.1 inning in Game Three before Wells outpitched a returning Hill (tired and wild) in Game Four. Just one game from a title, Cleveland flexed its muscle to tie it all up in Game Five, 6-4. Schourek was not sharp. In Game Six, Deion Sanders led off the 3rd inning with a bunt base hit, stole second, and came home on a Barry Larkin triple. Ron Gant walked, and Reggie Sanders hit a smash that just cleared the left-center field wall for a 3-0 Red lead. Two innings later, Larkin hit his own home run, and Ed Taubensee hit a bases-loaded double to score three. The rout was one, and the Reds were World Champions.

Sadly, that was largely the end for the would-be Red dynasty. Gant returned to free agency after the season and signed with St. Louis. David Wells moved to Baltimore. Wetteland signed with the Yankees. And Smoltz signed with the hated Braves. With so many departures, Bowden and the Reds just didn't have any answers. Years of drafting low in Round One had left the minor leagues bereft of talent. (A complete lack of scouting might have helped.) Smiley was back (as was Jarvis), but no one else remained in the rotation. Bowden dealt World Series hero Deion Sanders plus a bunch of interesting relief arms to the Giants for Mark Portugal and Dave Burba. That helped a bit, but the Reds limped to a .500 record.

[foster15]

interesting what-if with this deal:

At the beginning of the off-season, the Reds have several decisions to make. They've just suffered through a tough season wherein their pitching absolutely fell apart. Jose Rijo has asended to perennial All-Star status and is mentioned as one of the game's true aces. He's a bedrock of the rotation. Everything else is in shambles. Tom Browning received his first All-Star nod, but faded in the second half of the season. Former All-Star Jack Armstrong floundered after fading badly in 1990. Scott Scudder's third trip through the league ended up largely as his first two had-- with middling poor numbers and really bad control. Chris Hammond fared a bit better, but his peripherals-- especially a massively high BB total-- drove Pinella insane.

That poor rotation ended up costing the Reds a ton of games because the offense was its usual potent self. Just about every offensive position was league average or better and displayed solid glovework. The veteran squad looked tough.

Bowden got down to work.

...

.

Looks like you put in a lot of imagination and work into this post so I really hate to do this. Ehhh, no I don't. Umm, the post says this trade offer was made in the winter of 1990-1991, that was the winter following the Reds WS Championship. So the coming off a bad year part that you started with? I don't know, kind of bothered me. But leave it up our Reds to be the only team in history to come off a bad year that consisted of "Cincinnati, Champions of Baseball!"

[Roy Tucker]

The Braves and, in particularly the Braves’ pitching just killed the Reds throughout the ‘90’s.

The Braves would roll into town and I’d see the rotation go Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine and I’d say a bad word. I knew it wouldn’t go well. I think Glavine was the all time Reds killer but the Reds had a smidge of success against Maddux.

[LeatherPants]

The Braves and, in particularly the Braves’ pitching just killed the Reds throughout the ‘90’s.

The Braves would roll into town and I’d see the rotation go Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine and I’d say a bad word. I knew it wouldn’t go well. I think Glavine was the all time Reds killer but the Reds had a smidge of success against Maddux.

ERA wise, they were essentially the same against the Reds

Maddux 3.43 career ERA vs Reds

Glavine 3.45 career ERA vs Reds

[WrongVerb]

The Braves and, in particularly the Braves’ pitching just killed the Reds throughout the ‘90’s.

The Braves would roll into town and I’d see the rotation go Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine and I’d say a bad word. I knew it wouldn’t go well. I think Glavine was the all time Reds killer but the Reds had a smidge of success against Maddux.

Two of my favorite Reds games I attended in person, they beat Glavine and Smoltz back to back in Atlanta (I was attending Florida State in Tallahassee at the time).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/b...99406180.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/b...99406190.shtml

[Roy Tucker]

Against the Reds…

Glavine was 27-12 in 50 starts.

Maddux was 24-16 in 55 starts.

[foster15]

The Braves and, in particularly the Braves’ pitching just killed the Reds throughout the ‘90’s.

The Braves would roll into town and I’d see the rotation go Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine and I’d say a bad word. I knew it wouldn’t go well. I think Glavine was the all time Reds killer but the Reds had a smidge of success against Maddux.

Pretty much since the BRM days, very good pitchers had their way with the Reds at what seemed like a unbelievable rate. During the 90s, we had two guys that were consistent good batters. Larkin and Morris. Casey also at the end(when Morris was gone). The rest were always looking for fastballs down the middle that never seem to come against the great ones. Back in the 70s, even our power hitters had great plate discipline.