Votto On His Return From Shoulder Surgery

[InsaneinthBrame]

Senzel may be faster in a foot race, but he doesn't play faster than Barrero.

I'd give Barrero first crack at SS. If he doesn't hit, then they can send him down to "fix him." Hopefully by them EDLC will be ready for a shot. If not, that's why they have Newman. I wouldn't start out with Newman.

I would not mess anymore with Barrero's mind. He has no shot at hitting MLB pitching now. We have seen this during 3 seasons at the MLB level. He struggled in AAA last year and this winter in the Puerto Rico Winter League. He needs to go to a lower level to learn plate discipline and pitch recognition that is what the minors is for these types of things. We saw how difficult at the major league level with Aquino. He was forced to try to do it at the MLB level since he was out of options.

[mth123]

What?

He doesn't cover tons of ground and he's not good on the bases. He plays like a slow guy.

[mth123]

I would not mess anymore with Barrero's mind. He has no shot at hitting MLB pitching now. We have seen this during 3 seasons at the MLB level. He struggled in AAA last year and this winter in the Puerto Rico Winter League. He needs to go to a lower level to learn plate discipline and pitch recognition that is what the minors is for these types of things. We saw how difficult at the major league level with Aquino. He was forced to try to do it at the MLB level since he was out of options.

I think Senzel has had his chance and has proven to be pretty inadequate at all phases of the game. He's passable in CF and that is his best attribute. He's a lousy bat who lacks power. He is a below average baserunner in spite of above average speed and has a weak arm. If you want to send Barrero down, fine, but if he's the lost cause he appears to be, I don't think more minor league time will help at his age. I'd rather give him one last chance to sink or swim while we wait for the next guy up (EDLC but maybe McLain). IF Barrero does go down, find a waiver claim or bring back Naquin. Senzel would not make my roster and should have been non-tendered.

[Kc61]

He doesn't cover tons of ground and he's not good on the bases. He plays like a slow guy.

Senzel is fast. He runs hard on the field. He outruns Barrero to first base, the chart shows that. The Reds moved him to CF because he is fast. He doesn’t “play like a slow guy.”

I’m rooting for Senzel. I understand some fans are unhappy with him. But to say he plays like a slow guy goes too far.

[RedTeamGo!]

How in the wide world of sports is Colin Moran that much slower than Moose?

[mth123]

Senzel will be 28 in June. He's out of time. He's a write-off. Move on.

Barrero will be 25 in April. He pretty much needs to establish himself this year or he becomes a write-off as well. Since the only alternative is a journeyman who adds no future value, I give Barrero that opportunity. I'm not optimistic, but he gets that shot.

[Kc61]

Senzel will be 28 in June. He's out of time. He's a write-off. Move on.

Barrero will be 25 in April. He pretty much needs to establish himself this year or he becomes a write-off as well. Since the only alternative is a journeyman who adds no future value, I give Barrero that opportunity. I'm not optimistic, but he gets that shot.

But Senzel is on the roster, he’s not moving on, he’s not out of time, he’s not being written off. I don’t believe his talent was a fiction. He’s had a checkered career, injury prone, and I believe he was mishandled. But whatever, I’m rooting for him in 2023 as I would expect all Reds fans will be.

As for Barrero I ask the same question as last season - how can he succeed in the bigs when he can’t handle AAA? But I expect he’ll be on the ballclub, so good luck to him, I hope last year was just one injury-caused bad season.

Both guys have talent, you never know in a given season, so let’s get going with spring training.

[RustyJ]

I would not mess anymore with Barrero's mind. He has no shot at hitting MLB pitching now. We have seen this during 3 seasons at the MLB level. He struggled in AAA last year and this winter in the Puerto Rico Winter League. He needs to go to a lower level to learn plate discipline and pitch recognition that is what the minors is for these types of things. We saw how difficult at the major league level with Aquino. He was forced to try to do it at the MLB level since he was out of options.

The Aristides Aquino who had 3,315 minor league plate appearances? More minor league reps weren’t going to improve Aquino and I would venture to say Barrero’s in the same boat at this point.

A healthy, not 21 year old version of Barrero needs an extended MLB shot.

[mth123]

But Senzel is on the roster, he’s not moving on, he’s not out of time, he’s not being written off. I don’t believe his talent was a fiction. He’s had a checkered career, injury prone, and I believe he was mishandled. But whatever, I’m rooting for him in 2023 as I would expect all Reds fans will be.

As for Barrero I ask the same question as last season - how can he succeed in the bigs when he can’t handle AAA? But I expect he’ll be on the ballclub, so good luck to him, I hope last year was just one injury-caused bad season.

Both guys have talent, you never know in a given season, so let’s get going with spring training.

But Barrero was very successful in AAA in 2021. Last year he was hurt, sat around after spring training and it could just as easily be chalked up as a lost year for him. The prior two big league trials were pretty small samples of sporadic play, so there is reason to doubt everything we've seen in the big leagues. I'm skeptical of Barrero myself, but he's 25, already had success at AAA and the only other option is the insurance policy the Reds acquired whose play will add no value to the team's future. So, give him 2 months, If he's still a below .650 OPS, send him down and try something else, but I start out with a clean slate. Barrero has had a successful 200 PAs in AAA (.986 OPS) something neither India nor Stephenson ever did. This is the year to try stuff and try to find answers. I don't see anything to lose in trying Barrero,

Senzel will be 28. If he hasn't done it by now, he's not doing it. He may have a fluke season at some point, but he's a loss. Face it and move on.

[InsaneinthBrame]

But Barrero was very successful in AAA in 2021. Last year he was hurt, sat around after spring training and it could just as easily be chalked up as a lost year for him. The prior two big league trials were pretty small samples of sporadic play, so there is reason to doubt everything we've seen in the big leagues. I'm skeptical of Barrero myself, but he's 25, already had success at AAA and the only other option is the insurance policy the Reds acquired whose play will add no value to the team's future. So, give him 2 months, If he's still a below .650 OPS, send him down and try something else, but I start out with a clean slate. Barrero has had a successful 200 PAs in AAA (.986 OPS) something neither India nor Stephenson ever did. This is the year to try stuff and try to find answers. I don't see anything to lose in trying Barrero,

Senzel will be 28. If he hasn't done it by now, he's not doing it. He may have a fluke season at some point, but he's a loss. Face it and move on.

The stats and the eyes says the same thing about Barrero weakness at the plate. It just happens that word got around about him last year in AAA. He is young enough that he maybe be able to correct to but to correct it at the MLB level. FYI EDLC has the same hitting issues which is why I am highly concerned by him. It is why I think Marte is the SS of the future.

[mth123]

The stats and the eyes says the same thing about Barrero weakness at the plate. It just happens that word got around about him last year in AAA. He is young enough that he maybe be able to correct to but to correct it at the MLB level. FYI EDLC has the same hitting issues which is why I am highly concerned by him. It is why I think Marte is the SS of the future.

Except, what changed for Barrero? In 2021 his K rate was 22% and he had an OPS of .986. The big change from 21 to 22 was the injury and recovery period. So, this year he's not injured, should have a full Spring Training and should hit the ground running. Give him a couple of months in the big leagues and see which is the real Barrero. If by the end of May he's still striking out 40% of the time, send him down.

I share your concern about EDLC. He's athletic enough to still become a useful player even with a high K Rate, but he won't be the guy the Reds need him to be until he gets that into a more normal range. I'm starting to suspect that McLain will end up becoming the Reds SS (though he had a 28% K rate himself, but at least walked 15% of the time to make it more palatable). Marte has already been moved off and by most accounts, it was always questionable whether he'd stick. I'm also seeing reports that Arroyo (who is a few years away anyway) may not be abe to stick either. The Castillo trade is looking worse than it did when he was supposedly dealt for 2 guys who were high end SS types who could hit. Both of them saw a drop in offense (Arroyo a large drop) leaving the leagues they were in where the ball flies and neither appear to be a SS long term. Its another reason I give Barrero a shot now. He may prove to be the best option if he regains his 2021 stroke.

[MoneyInTheBank]

I would not mess anymore with Barrero's mind. He has no shot at hitting MLB pitching now. We have seen this during 3 seasons at the MLB level. He struggled in AAA last year and this winter in the Puerto Rico Winter League. He needs to go to a lower level to learn plate discipline and pitch recognition that is what the minors is for these types of things. We saw how difficult at the major league level with Aquino. He was forced to try to do it at the MLB level since he was out of options.

The stats and the eyes says the same thing about Barrero weakness at the plate. It just happens that word got around about him last year in AAA. He is young enough that he maybe be able to correct to but to correct it at the MLB level. FYI EDLC has the same hitting issues which is why I am highly concerned by him. It is why I think Marte is the SS of the future.

Why no mention of Barrero's swing changes and dramatically improved plate discipline (18.6% K rate and 11.6% BB rate vs. 37.5% and 4.6% in AAA in 2022) during winter league? If we are using winter league as evidence of struggles then we also have evidence of an improved approach.

[MoneyInTheBank]

Except, what changed for Barrero? In 2021 his K rate was 22% and he had an OPS of .986. The big change from 21 to 22 was the injury and recovery period. So, this year he's not injured, should have a full Spring Training and should hit the ground running. Give him a couple of months in the big leagues and see which is the real Barrero. If by the end of May he's still striking out 40% of the time, send him down.

I share your concern about EDLC. He's athletic enough to still become a useful player even with a high K Rate, but he won't be the guy the Reds need him to be until he gets that into a more normal range. I'm starting to suspect that McLain will end up becoming the Reds SS (though he had a 28% K rate himself, but at least walked 15% of the time to make it more palatable). Marte has already been moved off and by most accounts, it was always questionable whether he'd stick. I'm also seeing reports that Arroyo (who is a few years away anyway) may not be abe to stick either. The Castillo trade is looking worse than it did when he was supposedly dealt for 2 guys who were high end SS types who could hit. Both of them saw a drop in offense (Arroyo a large drop) leaving the leagues they were in where the ball flies and neither appear to be a SS long term. Its another reason I give Barrero a shot now. He may prove to be the best option if he regains his 2021 stroke.

Not sure where you are getting that Marte had a drop off in offensive production. He had a better AVG, OBP, OPS and K/BB rate in Dayton than when he was in the NW League. Fangraphs seems to be on an island that Arroyo won't stick at SS, so I'd say it's premature to say "neither appear to be a SS long term"

[InsaneinthBrame]

Except, what changed for Barrero? In 2021 his K rate was 22% and he had an OPS of .986. The big change from 21 to 22 was the injury and recovery period. So, this year he's not injured, should have a full Spring Training and should hit the ground running. Give him a couple of months in the big leagues and see which is the real Barrero. If by the end of May he's still striking out 40% of the time, send him down.

I share your concern about EDLC. He's athletic enough to still become a useful player even with a high K Rate, but he won't be the guy the Reds need him to be until he gets that into a more normal range. I'm starting to suspect that McLain will end up becoming the Reds SS (though he had a 28% K rate himself, but at least walked 15% of the time to make it more palatable). Marte has already been moved off and by most accounts, it was always questionable whether he'd stick. I'm also seeing reports that Arroyo (who is a few years away anyway) may not be abe to stick either. The Castillo trade is looking worse than it did when he was supposedly dealt for 2 guys who were high end SS types who could hit. Both of them saw a drop in offense (Arroyo a large drop) leaving the leagues they were in where the ball flies and neither appear to be a SS long term. Its another reason I give Barrero a shot now. He may prove to be the best option if he regains his 2021 stroke.

I am not sure where the Marte move off of 3B is coming from he only player there during the Arizona Fall league. He only player SS during the minor league season.

I am sorry his injury does not explain his inability to not swing at breaking balls out of the zone. He did the same thing in 2020 and 2021 in MLB. The hamate injury does not have that big affect on lost production. I can see with my own two eyes that he can only hit the fastball. As you can see by the plate discipline numbers he is the same hitter before and after injury.

[mth123]

I am not sure where the Marte move off of 3B is coming from he only player there during the Arizona Fall league. He only player SS during the minor league season.

I am sorry his injury does not explain his inability to not swing at breaking balls out of the zone. He did the same thing in 2020 and 2021 in MLB. The hamate injury does not have that big affect on lost production. I can see with my own two eyes that he can only hit the fastball. As you can see by the plate discipline numbers he is the same hitter before and after injury.

What are you talking about? In your earlier post you said he should be the SS. I said he's already been moved off of SS.

Now you are saying he won't be moved off 3B. I never said he couldn't handle 3B, just that I think 3B is probably India very soon and Collier longer term. There are other options like Steer, McLain, CES etc for 3B. The Reds have nothing in the OF. Marte in RF makes a lot of sense IMO.

I also think injury and recovery from injury has a lot of impacts as guys compensate for their injury and then being relegated to the minors when prior to the injury he was expecting the be in the majors all year.

What I do know was that he had a 22% K Rate in 2021, then he was injured, then his K Rate went through the roof. Lets see what it looks like without the injury in the mix. I actually suspect you are right. He'll flail and fail in April and May, but I think he needs the opportunity to be evaluated after a normal winter and normal spring training and no injury in the mix.