Reds post-season transactions 2022-23 Part Two

[redsfan9988]

Again, I'm not advocating for 140+ games behind the plate. I just don't think he's a franchise cornerstone anymore as a full time 1B/DH

I’ll say at or under 70 starts at C.
50-60 starts at 1B with Votto resting or DHing
20 or so starts at DH
10-20 days off

I suspect Casali will start at C against all LHP (unless they face like four in a row). He’s got a .770 career OPS against lefties, so it’s a good excuse to get his defensive prowess on the field without sacrificing offense. Stephenson moved to 1B against lefties, and Votto will either rest or DH. I expect Stephenson to start at C against about 2/3 or so of RHP.

[Wonderful Monds]

I’ll say at or under 70 starts at C.
50-60 starts at 1B with Votto resting or DHing
20 or so starts at DH
10-20 days off

I suspect Casali will start at C against all LHP (unless they face like four in a row). He’s got a .770 career OPS against lefties, so it’s a good excuse to get his defensive prowess on the field without sacrificing offense. Stephenson moved to 1B against lefties, and Votto will either rest or DH. I expect Stephenson to start at C against about 2/3 or so of RHP.

I would bet that same money I mentioned earlier that Stephenson won’t play nearly as many games as a 1B/DH as he does catcher.


I looked it up because I was trying to rack my brain for examples - there really isn’t a lot of precedent for all star level catchers being moved off the position while they’re still young and physically capable of playing the position. In the last decade you have Joe Mauer and that’s about it. And he made that call after he hit 30 years old. TySteve is still on the record about how he’s definitely a catcher.

This idea of moving good capable catchers who are great hitters for the position, it just doesn’t really happen.

[MoneyInTheBank]

Out of curiosity, I spent some time on BR:

2021

Stephenson
132 games played (80 starter, 52 sub)
102 games in the field (30 PH only)

Barnhart
116 games played (97 starter, 19 sub)
104 games in the field (12 PH only)

Casali
77 games played (55 starter, 22 sub)
67 games in the field (10 PH only)

Maile
15 games played (7 starter, 8 sub)
13 games in the field (2 PH only)

2022

Casali
57 games played (50 starter, 7 sub)
57 games in the field (did not record a plate appearance in 3 games)

Maile
76 games played (55 starter, 21 sub)
76 games in the field (did not record a plate appearance in 13 games)

Looking at the above, I do think there is a path to Stephenson starting 100 at catcher while making the other catchers a worthwhile investment. Maile starting 15 games and finishing another 20-25. Casali starting the remaining 47, getting 5 PH appearances and finishing another 5 games.

Stephenson 150 games (100 C, 50 1B/DH, 12 rest/DL)
Casali 57 games
Maile 35-40 games

[JCM11]

Maile is an absolute waste of a roster spot if he's only going to start 1 out of every 10 games. The guy has a career 61 OPS+ the Reds would be better off with just about anyone else on the bench. If they carry 3 catchers Stephenson isn't catching 100 games.

[Kinsm]

Maile is an absolute waste of a roster spot if he's only going to start 1 out of every 10 games. The guy has a career 61 OPS+ the Reds would be better off with just about anyone else on the bench. If they carry 3 catchers Stephenson isn't catching 100 games.

They're going to carry 3 catchers specifically because of Stephenson's health issues.

The Reds are losing 100 games next year, with or without Maile playing only 1 out of every 10.

[MoneyInTheBank]

Maile is an absolute waste of a roster spot if he's only going to start 1 out of every 10 games. The guy has a career 61 OPS+ the Reds would be better off with just about anyone else on the bench. If they carry 3 catchers Stephenson isn't catching 100 games.

Why would you want him to start more considering he isn't much of a hitter?

Carrying only 2 catchers pretty much eliminates DH as a possibility for Stephenson

[JCM11]

Apparently the Marlins have discussed Edward Caberera in trade talks recently. He's a highly ranked prospect who pitched well last year in 14 big league starts and comes with 6 years of control. He misses bats and had a 44% ground ball rate last year. Seems like the perfect candidate for the Reds to use some of that IF prospect glut on.

[redsfan9988]

Apparently the Marlins have discussed Edward Caberera in trade talks recently. He's a highly ranked prospect who pitched well last year in 14 big league starts and comes with 6 years of control. He misses bats and had a 44% ground ball rate last year. Seems like the perfect candidate for the Reds to use some of that IF prospect glut on.

Hmm

What’s Dan Straily up to?

[Kc61]

Again, I'm not advocating for 140+ games behind the plate. I just don't think he's a franchise cornerstone anymore as a full time 1B/DH

I’m not going to risk Tyler’s health and longevity for a label. So we won’t call him a franchise cornerstone. We’ll call him an excellent bat who can catch, play first, and DH.

It’s ok with me, his offensive production will still count in Reds games regardless of the position or label.

And he’ll still catch for awhile, I expect on a part time basis, so we’re a few years from considering a complete departure from the position.

[Wonderful Monds]

I’m not going to risk Tyler’s health and longevity for a label. So we won’t call him a franchise cornerstone. We’ll call him an excellent bat who can catch, play first, and DH.

It’s ok with me, his offensive production will still count in Reds games regardless of the position or label.

And he’ll still catch for awhile, I expect on a part time basis, so we’re a few years from considering a complete departure from the position.

His offensive production means a lot less when he’s at 1B and Casali/Maile are at catcher, rather than when Stephenson plays catcher and any number of our infield top prospect types are playing 1B.

[MoneyInTheBank]

I’m not going to risk Tyler’s health and longevity for a label.

So we won’t call him a franchise cornerstone. We’ll call him an excellent bat who can catch, play first, and DH.

It’s ok with me, his offensive production will still count in Reds games regardless of the position.

They can look for other big bats in LF, RF, 1B, 3B, DH, wherever there’s an opening.

No offense but I'm seriously questioning whether you are reading my posts...

Still not advocating for making him a 140+ game catcher

It's not about risking his health for a "label". His wishes are to catch and it's about the way the Reds have told us they are building the roster. They may only have 1 or 2 LTCs (or franchise cornerstones) and they are going to churn the rest. A 120 wRC+ 100+ game catcher is a candidate for a LTC. A 120 wRC+ 1B/DH is a player who gets flipped before free agency. I would flip him while he's still a catcher if that's the plan, whenever that may be

[757690]

His offensive production means a lot less when he’s at 1B and Casali/Maile are at catcher, rather than when Stephenson plays catcher and any number of our infield top prospect types are playing 1B.

Clearly, Stephenson catching 150+ games a season is most optimal. The question is if he can. His injury history so far is that he cannot, but it’s only been two seasons. Stephenson in the lineup 150 games with him at catcher 100 of them is far more valuable than Stephenson in the lineup as catcher only 80 games.

If the Reds are worried that he can’t catch a full season, then having him DH/1B for around 50 games a year makes sense. You seem to think that he can handle 150 games as catcher. I don’t think there is a clear and obvious answer.

- - - Updated - - -

No offense but I'm seriously questioning whether you are reading my posts...

Still not advocating for making him a 140+ game catcher

It's not about risking his health for a "label". His wishes are to catch and it's about the way the Reds have told us they are building the roster. They may only have 1 or 2 LTCs (or franchise cornerstones) and they are going to churn the rest. A 120 wRC+ 100+ game catcher is a candidate for a LTC. A 120 wRC+ 1B/DH is a player who gets flipped before free agency. I would flip him while he's still a catcher if that's the plan, whenever that may be

If the Reds have concluded that Stephenson is not a full time catcher, then that will be factored into his trade value. They aren’t going to trick any other team on this.

If they trade him, what do they get that will be more valuable than Stephenson catching 100 games and playing DH/1B 5o games a year?

[Kc61]

No offense but I'm seriously questioning whether you are reading my posts...

Still not advocating for making him a 140+ game catcher

It's not about risking his health for a "label". His wishes are to catch and it's about the way the Reds have told us they are building the roster. They may only have 1 or 2 LTCs (or franchise cornerstones) and they are going to churn the rest. A 120 wRC+ 100+ game catcher is a candidate for a LTC. A 120 wRC+ 1B/DH is a player who gets flipped before free agency. I would flip him while he's still a catcher if that's the plan, whenever that may be

Sorry, but I can’t plan around Stephenson’s free agency in 2027. Sports are too fluid. We have no idea what the Reds will look like then. We have no idea how Stephenson’s performance or health will be. Whether they “flip” him will depend lots of unknowns.

For the near future, I think Reds should use Ty Steve’s offense to their advantage. That’s the strength of his game. Doing so requires keeping him healthy, as has been discussed.

That’s the sum and substance of my views on this.

[MoneyInTheBank]

If the Reds have concluded that Stephenson is not a full time catcher, then that will be factored into his trade value. They aren’t going to trick any other team on this.

If they trade him, what do they get that will be more valuable than Stephenson catching 100 games and playing DH/1B 5o games a year?

You are trolling, right? I literally said a 100+ game catcher is a franchise cornerstone

[MoneyInTheBank]

Sorry, but I can’t plan around Stephenson’s free agency in 2027. Sports are too fluid. We have no idea what the Reds will look like then. We have no idea how Stephenson’s performance or health will be. Whether they “flip” him will depend lots of unknowns.

For the near future, I think Reds should use Ty Steve’s offense to their advantage. That’s the strength of his game. Doing so requires keeping him healthy, as has been discussed.

That’s the sum and substance of my views on this.

You were discussing the phasing out of catching duties over a period of years so I'm a little surprised his inevitable free agency is totally off limits.

I think we actually mostly agree on getting him 1B/DH time. I just think we disagree just how at risk he is for injury