Reds Change Approach To Multiyear Deals?

[kaldaniels]

IMO gut rebuilds are a spending breather - more than a good baseball building strategy.

There’s a powerful incentive for some owners to use the reasoning - “we’re not spending now because it’s a rebuild.” So teams like the Reds are unlikely to add much in the way of longer term pieces along the way.

I remember when Cubs traded for Jake Arrieta in the midst of a deep rebuild. Folks wondered why, but it resulted in a major add that lasted several years.

Even when the Reds got Rolen it wasn’t the “perfect time” but that worked out nicely.

[mth123]

The perfect time is any time. Teams contend when they try to contend. When they don't try, then they don't contend. Funny how that works.

[InsaneinthBrame]

IMO gut rebuilds are a spending breather - more than a good baseball building strategy.

There’s a powerful incentive for some owners to use the reasoning - “we’re not spending now because it’s a rebuild.” So teams like the Reds are unlikely to add much in the way of longer term pieces along the way.

I remember when Cubs traded for Jake Arrieta in the midst of a deep rebuild. Folks wondered why, but it resulted in a major add that lasted several years.

It is a money grab and we better get use it. I see us as the Marlins and Pirates level now. We are not getting out of this losing cycle any time soon unless there is a change in how this team does business. The timing of young players on the roster and the players in minors timeliness do not match well to actually build a contending team. Many of the top Reds top prospects have strikeout and playe discipline issues that will lead them to not be able to hit mlb pitching.

[InsaneinthBrame]

True.

I just get irrationally angry about the desperate Moose signing.

Moose was not bad in 2020 and the first half of 2021 when he tried to comeback from injury in the second half he was aweful and made is numbers look poor. Last was mostly a mess with the injuries.

[757690]

The perfect time is any time. Teams contend when they try to contend. When they don't try, then they don't contend. Funny how that works.

Exactly. The problem with the Moose signing wasn’t that it was at the wrong time, it was that it was the only time in a decade, and then they stopped again for another decade (or longer).

[kaldaniels]

Moose was not bad in 2020 and the first half of 2021 when he tried to comeback from injury in the second half he was aweful and made is numbers look poor. Last was mostly a mess with the injuries.

Bad signing on a guy headed towards the downside of his career.

40 games or so in 2020 - who cares and who knows what a full season would have been.

Moose ran a 100 wRC+ the first half of 2021 - that is not good for a bat first guy.

2022 - awful

2023 - The cheap Reds paid him 16 million rather than keep him on the roster

I never ever said it was a good signing. If anything I said it was nice to see the Reds throwing money around like a real team - but apparently that was a one-off in the 2019-20 offseason.

64 million down the drain - anyone feel free to defend it, you can have the last word. And I get that they were planning on making a run in 2020 but you shouldn’t just spend money for the sake of it - you have to be wise.

[InsaneinthBrame]

Bad signing on a guy headed towards the downside of his career.

40 games or so in 2020 - who cares and who knows what a full season would have been.

Moose ran a 100 wRC+ the first half of 2021 - that is not good for a bat first guy.

2022 - awful

2023 - The cheap Reds paid him 16 million rather than keep him on the roster

I never ever said it was a good signing. If anything I said it was nice to see the Reds throwing money around like a real team - but apparently that was a one-off in the 2019-20 offseason.

64 million down the drain - anyone feel free to defend it, you can have the last word. And I get that they were planning on making a run in 2020 but you shouldn’t just spend money for the sake of it - you have to be wise.

Sometimes injury happens my point is it was a aweful as some seem to think. But he was a guy that was in poor shape coming off a career year. Honestly he might have been ok this year since it was a contract year and kept him healthy by DHing him

[kaldaniels]

Sometimes injury happens my point is it was a aweful as some seem to think. But he was a guy that was in poor shape coming off a career year. Honestly he might have been ok this year since it was a contract year and kept him healthy by DHing him

Well, on a related note the cutting of Moose is also questionable for the Reds as counterintuitive as it may seem.

On the surface, yes, for a normal team it’s reasonable to look at his production and cut bait. But then you have to replace him on the roster, paying more money for another player who hopefully will produce better than Moose.

Do we really think the Reds can thread that needle?

[RedsManRick]

"Multiyear" or "Multimillion"?

Seriously. It's hard to explore multiyear deals while sustaining a bargain basement budget. Nobody is signing for 4 years @ $3M per -- this is 2023, not 1993.

[mth123]

Sometimes injury happens my point is it was a aweful as some seem to think. But he was a guy that was in poor shape coming off a career year. Honestly he might have been ok this year since it was a contract year and kept him healthy by DHing him

I think it was an ill-advised signing that had a chance to work out. They gave Moose the largest FA contract in team history. He did have real power in his bat and with health it may have worked out, but he was a big, slow moving player in his 30s and they signed him to be the team's second baseman. It was a move made in desperation and obviously no one else thought he was worth that much or he wouldn't have signed a deal to play out of position in the first place. The reds boxed themselves into a corner with their cheap ways and lack of additions leading up to that and had to overpay to attract middling free agents. They are doing the same thing now.

[Kc61]

I thought signing Moose was fine. He was a pretty durable player in his career. A good hitter coming off a very good year in the Central.

His body type was an issue, true, but if he continued to hit he’d be quite useful. As it turned out the DH was in place for two of his three years.

I won’t participate in the rush to claim that it was always a bad idea.

The issue here is simply that Reds have stopped spending. Every mistake is magnified because the Reds won’t sign replacements. Two gut rebuilds almost consecutively is intolerable for fans, myself included. Moose turned out bad, it should be yesterday’s news.

[mth123]

I thought signing Moose was fine. He was a pretty durable player in his career. A good hitter coming off a very good year in the Central.

His body type was an issue, true, but if he continued to hit he’d be quite useful. As it turned out the DH was in place for two of his three years.

I won’t participate in the rush to claim that it was always a bad idea.

The issue here is simply that Reds have stopped spending. Every mistake is magnified because the Reds won’t sign replacements. Two gut rebuilds almost consecutively is intolerable for fans, myself included. Moose turned out bad, it should be yesterday’s news.

But its the same pattern now. Spend nothing, add nothing and hope that the magic beans turn into a golden goose. Then reach a point where the team is a laughingstock, you need to overpay for middling talent and then wonder why you have bad contracts. It will just reinforce the stupid approach that got you to that point in the first place.

I was happy the reds signed Moose when it happened. They needed a bat with pop and he was one. I was shocked at what they signed him for. I thought he was an OK guy to hit fifth or sixth in the line-up and add power, but not the kind of guy who gets the biggest contract in team history. I was very skeptical of him becoming the team's second baseman. I do think his signing helped re-establish the reds as potential buyers for players on the market and prior to the Moose deal, I don't think many players were even considering Cincinnati as an option. I just don't understand getting yourself in the position of having to overpay for a couple of guys in order to become relevant in the marketplace in the first place. The solution we saw was the knee-jerk reaction to sign no one. Now they are doing it again and if they ever do decide to sign a difference maker, it will again be a huge overpay to get it done that will probably not work out and start this whole cycle over again.

They need to steadily add long term talent at every opportunity (not just prospects who may never work out). That is how they will achieve this sustainable approach that eliminates the peaks and valleys. Spending years signing no one but a few cheap stopgaps will only bring-on the opposite effect IMO. . . then they'll make the next desperation signing in a few years with even bigger numbers and more risk and even if the player works out and avoids being a total write-off, he probably won't pay for his contract.

[Kinsm]

His body type wasn’t the issue, it was his career obp and some of us brought it up at the time of the signing.

[OldFashionedRed]

It is a money grab and we better get use it. I see us as the Marlins and Pirates level now. We are not getting out of this losing cycle any time soon unless there is a change in how this team does business. The timing of young players on the roster and the players in minors timeliness do not match well to actually build a contending team. Many of the top Reds top prospects have strikeout and playe discipline issues that will lead them to not be able to hit mlb pitching.

There is a change in how this team does business. They literally spelled out their approach. Build from within, and when the core you're building from is stable, you spend money on pieces to complement that core. Some of you just want to see the Reds spend, spend, spend and that's what got them to.this point. It does not make sense to spend just because you have it. We're not the Mets, Yankees, Dodgers and so on.

[OldFashionedRed]

"Multiyear" or "Multimillion"?

Seriously. It's hard to explore multiyear deals while sustaining a bargain basement budget. Nobody is signing for 4 years @ $3M per -- this is 2023, not 1993.

That's why I can't wait for a big reset to the economy. Let's start charging the wealthy in taxes what they actually need to be paying, and see how long these ridiculous salaries continue. Give that money to people who actually make a difference in the lives of others.