The Padres are trying to win, and that continues to upset some owners

[Patrick Bateman]

Personally, I hope ownership is made to pay through the nose.

Screw a cap. Make them pay for talent.

Allowing them to get off relatively unscathed smacks of the continuing disparity between rich and everyone else.

The idea would be to ultimately not decrease the amount of revenue shared with the players. The cap should ultimately be driven off some % of revenue, whether its 50% or more.

However, the benefit of what im saying is to the level the playing field and allow for enhanced parity, rather than having to compete with Steve Cohen to eventually try and compete Hunter Greene and Nick Lodolo.

Im not suggesting I am against what the Padres or Mets are doing... its awesome.. I think its going to either force teams to pay up, or change the rules create a more even playing field. That seems easier than finding 32 cool owners willing to blow their wad.

[Bourgeois Zee]

The idea would be to ultimately not decrease the amount of revenue shared with the players. The cap should ultimately be driven off some % of revenue, whether its 50% or more.

However, the benefit of what im saying is to the level the playing field and allow for enhanced parity, rather than having to compete with Steve Cohen to eventually try and compete Hunter Greene and Nick Lodolo.

Im not suggesting I am against what the Padres or Mets are doing... its awesome.. I think its going to either force teams to pay up, or change the rules create a more even playing field. That seems easier than finding 32 cool owners willing to blow their wad.

I question if the playing field is as uneven as some owners claim. Can't trust anything they say, no matter what it might be.

Perhaps that's biased thinking on my part.

[Revering4Blue]

California fans are fickle. They'll drift to whatever franchise is winning. The Hispanic market is a huge resource, a lot greater resource than anything the REDS have access to, and the Padres to market to it.

Good point on the Hispanic market.

As I understand it, the Padres have a large fanbase in the Tijuana area and broadcast games in Spanish. That has to factor into the market size.


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[Kingspoint]

I know the feeling. I've been following the Reds on TV and radio ever since sneaking a small radio to bed regulary so I could listen the the Big Red Machine when they ran past my bedtime.

For me, it was sneaking out after dark and going to a place in the neighborhood free of interference and waiting for 9:00 p.m. so I could get the bounces off the stratosphere of the Giants and Dodgers games being filtered through in and out Hispanic stations that began at 9:00 p.m., also. The bounce would last from about 90 seconds to 120 seconds. The hope was that Vin Scully or Hal King (It may have been before Hal King for the Giants) would go through the scores of the other games in the National League during a bounce and that if they did, they would get to the REDS's score before the bounce went away and I had to wait for the next one. Waiting for Vince Scully to stop talking about a story long enough for him to get to the scores could be painful, but I did get a yearning for "Farmer John's", which they didn't sell in Portland at the time. They didn't even have fresh pineapples here, yet, despite Portland being a close port to Hawaii.

[REDREAD]

But if they spend and win again, they can get to 3M a season (they were at 2.9M last year) something that the Reds can never do, no matter how much they spend and win. If you look at their attendance figures every year, they almost never drop below 2M, even when they are terrible and are over 2.5M easily when they are good. Compare that to the Reds who are constantly below 2M, and can’t get to 2.5M even when they are good. San Diego is a bigger market than the Cincinnati, and it’s not really close.

That's not really a fair conclusion.
We don't have a lot of data points.. well mainly because since Marge was forced out, the team never tried to win to the extent that the Padres had (in recent years)
The Reds can get to 2.5 million. Their attendance was 2,492,101 in 2013. It was only 1.75 million (rounded) in 2009.
Reds never won a playoff series during the Walt era. All they had to do was make the playoffs, 3 of 4 years and the fanbase woke up after years of abuse.
Of course, even when they made the playoffs, they were just doing the bare minimum to make the playoffs.. not replacing Ludwick when he was hurt.. We all know the Reds had the money to do that.

In short, the Padres put the Reds to shame.. Other than the 4 years that Walt made this team relevant, we've sucked since 2000.
People defend the Reds too much , say stuff like "People in Cincy won't come on school nights, people in Cincy would rather watch college sports or high school football".
That's all BS.. The Reds have put a horrible product up for sale for over 20 years. They had something good going with Walt, but then decided to pull the "Burndown - rebuild" thing with us.
They had something great when they acquired Jr, but then they got lazy and thought there was no need to put any other players around him.
Let's stop blaming the market size and the people of Cincy.. The Reds have gotten much more fan support than they deserve.
The people of Cincy were promised a good team if they voted for the GAB tax.. of course that turned out to be a huge con job.. John Allen could not wait to burn that team to the ground, yet most fans still believed in the Reds "plan".. The Reds have always been on the Phil C plan (since Marge was forced out).. They were just clever enough to spin it to the gullible fans, until now.
The Reds do not deserve to draw even 1 million fans per year.

Another example.. The Reds had that 3-2-1 promotion for cheap concessions that year and then "ran out" of cheap food by the 3rd or 4th inning.. That just shows the contempt they have for fans.
Minor league teams are able to do dime-a-dog promotions and not run out.. And they have the cheap food at every concession stand, so the fans don't have to miss an entire inning to get a cheap hotdog.. But the Reds only have their cheap food at limited locations, and they run out of it, on purpose.. This summarizes their entire attitude. I honestly feel like a fool for being a fan of this team for so long.

Note, I am not saying Marge was a good person, I am saying that she wanted to win. I do not want to turn this into a marge debate. I am just establishing the timeline for when the Reds stopped trying.

If the Padres were run like the Reds, they'd have crappy attendance too. That's the point.. Let's stop blaming the fans for the Reds attendance. This is all by design, it has nothing to do with market size. If the Reds' ownership gave a crap, we could be as successful as SD, Milwaukee, and/or St Louis.. It's so easy to make the playoffs now, because over half the league is not even trying.

[Patrick Bateman]

I question if the playing field is as uneven as some owners claim. Can't trust anything they say, no matter what it might be.

Perhaps that's biased thinking on my part.

Based on estimates I have seen on team revenues, specifically broadcast and overall market reach, yes, I do think there is a significant gap in terms of resources. Also, the quantity of owners that are willing to overspend revenues for sake of competition appears to be about 2 people right now, which although I deeply admire and am jealous on, is not something I think is reasonable to count on.

Im not a Reds ownership sympathizer. They stink. But I do think compared to the rest of the big 4 sports that the model in MLB does create the largest imbalance for competition.

[oregonred]

Padres are hemmed into a bad area, below two MLB teams, above Mexico, desert to the east and ocean to the west. They have a small loyal base, albeit they are shell shocked from years of losing but I don't see them being able to sustain extended runs with the two LA teams sucking up oxygen in SoCal. The owner is rich, yes.. and he is willing to spend now so they have that going for them. But that can change in a couple of years

San Diego is the #17 metro area with over 3.2M people amd growing at a strong rate.

It is the only metro area in the top 20 not to have at least three Big 4 franchises. Let alone two. They are the only game in town and they dont even compete against a Power 5 college program.

Best year round baseball weather, only game in town and multibillionaire hedge fund owner.

No comparison to the Reds market and ownership situation for gate turnstile and local market advertising potential.

I didnt think about the Tijuana factor as a bonus. Add another 2.2M potential viewers and baseball fans to the region.

[BCubb2003]

I think there are three kinds of owners:

The rare Steve Cohen-like owner who is willing to inject his or her own money to build a winner.

The large market “break even” owner (however that’s defined) but that revenue is enough to be competitive.

The small market “break even” owner who says the revenue isn’t enough to win, but won’t restructure the team.

This is with dubious definitions of “break even” and “enough revenue.”

[757690]

That's not really a fair conclusion.
We don't have a lot of data points.. well mainly because since Marge was forced out, the team never tried to win to the extent that the Padres had (in recent years)
The Reds can get to 2.5 million. Their attendance was 2,492,101 in 2013. It was only 1.75 million (rounded) in 2009.
Reds never won a playoff series during the Walt era. All they had to do was make the playoffs, 3 of 4 years and the fanbase woke up after years of abuse.
Of course, even when they made the playoffs, they were just doing the bare minimum to make the playoffs.. not replacing Ludwick when he was hurt.. We all know the Reds had the money to do that.

In short, the Padres put the Reds to shame.. Other than the 4 years that Walt made this team relevant, we've sucked since 2000.
People defend the Reds too much , say stuff like "People in Cincy won't come on school nights, people in Cincy would rather watch college sports or high school football".
That's all BS.. The Reds have put a horrible product up for sale for over 20 years. They had something good going with Walt, but then decided to pull the "Burndown - rebuild" thing with us.
They had something great when they acquired Jr, but then they got lazy and thought there was no need to put any other players around him.
Let's stop blaming the market size and the people of Cincy.. The Reds have gotten much more fan support than they deserve.
The people of Cincy were promised a good team if they voted for the GAB tax.. of course that turned out to be a huge con job.. John Allen could not wait to burn that team to the ground, yet most fans still believed in the Reds "plan".. The Reds have always been on the Phil C plan (since Marge was forced out).. They were just clever enough to spin it to the gullible fans, until now.
The Reds do not deserve to draw even 1 million fans per year.

Another example.. The Reds had that 3-2-1 promotion for cheap concessions that year and then "ran out" of cheap food by the 3rd or 4th inning.. That just shows the contempt they have for fans.
Minor league teams are able to do dime-a-dog promotions and not run out.. And they have the cheap food at every concession stand, so the fans don't have to miss an entire inning to get a cheap hotdog.. But the Reds only have their cheap food at limited locations, and they run out of it, on purpose.. This summarizes their entire attitude. I honestly feel like a fool for being a fan of this team for so long.

Note, I am not saying Marge was a good person, I am saying that she wanted to win. I do not want to turn this into a marge debate. I am just establishing the timeline for when the Reds stopped trying.

If the Padres were run like the Reds, they'd have crappy attendance too. That's the point.. Let's stop blaming the fans for the Reds attendance. This is all by design, it has nothing to do with market size. If the Reds' ownership gave a crap, we could be as successful as SD, Milwaukee, and/or St Louis.. It's so easy to make the playoffs now, because over half the league is not even trying.

You make some good points, and to be clear, I am in no way blaming the market size on the Reds failures at any time. I've made the claim numerous times that they can and need to spend over double what they are currently spending on payroll.

But two key facts are clear. 1. The Padres are a bigger market than the Reds. 2. The Padres have not been more competitive than the Reds historically.

Here are the facts, the history of both teams, and a quick glance reveals that the Padres have an advantage over the Reds attendance wise, no matter the situation, and their records have not been better than the Reds, since the Padres have existed. It's not even true if you go back over just the past 25 years.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SDP/

Let me point out a few key facts that are in these links.

First, record wise, since the 1994 season cancellation (thanks to WOY for this):

Reds - 2117-2300
Padres - 2122-2295

Each have had 5 playoff seasons.

Second, The best the Reds have ever done attendance wise, since the Padres have existed is 1976 with 2.6M. The best the Padres have ever done attendance wise is 3M.
Since 1994, the Reds have had 13 seasons with over 2M attendance. Since 1994, the Padres have had 27 seasons with over 2M attendance.

Similar records. Very dissimilar attendance numbers.

[Redsfan6272]

wont bring up the Marge issues but she got one thing BOB will NEVER get, A World Series Trophy!!!

[wlf WV]

Market sizes are like taxes, only the people that don't need to worry over them cry about them . They cry and cry until everyone is crying.

[Chip R]

Second, The best the Reds have ever done attendance wise, since the Padres have existed is 1976 with 2.6M. The best the Padres have ever done attendance wise is 3M.
Since 1994, the Reds have had 13 seasons with over 2M attendance. Since 1994, the Padres have had 27 seasons with over 2M attendance.

There was a point in time over the last 50 years that they started counting attendance as tickets sold rather than butts in the seats. That said, I would be willing to bet that if they used the tickets sold method back then, the Reds drew 3M that year and maybe another year or two. But even with how they count attendance now, the Reds are never going to draw 3M. That would mean averaging 37K over the season. That means drawing close to that on 30 degree April nights, 90 degree July afternoons, when school is still going on, when the weather doesn't look promising, when they are 20 games out of 1st in August and September, when there's a Bengals game on, etc. Even if they did a 180 and this franchise became a juggernaut on the field it is not going to happen. They couldn't even match 2.6M in Junior's first season when the bloom was still on the rose and the 1999 team won 96 games. Even in 2000 they were in the bottom half of the league attendance wise.

[REDREAD]

You make some good points, and to be clear, I am in no way blaming the market size on the Reds failures at any time. I've made the claim numerous times that they can and need to spend over double what they are currently spending on payroll.

But two key facts are clear. 1. The Padres are a bigger market than the Reds. 2. The Padres have not been more competitive than the Reds historically.

Here are the facts, the history of both teams, and a quick glance reveals that the Padres have an advantage over the Reds attendance wise, no matter the situation, and their records have not been better than the Reds, since the Padres have existed. It's not even true if you go back over just the past 25 years.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SDP/

Let me point out a few key facts that are in these links.

First, record wise, since the 1994 season cancellation (thanks to WOY for this):

Reds - 2117-2300
Padres - 2122-2295

Each have had 5 playoff seasons.

Second, The best the Reds have ever done attendance wise, since the Padres have existed is 1976 with 2.6M. The best the Padres have ever done attendance wise is 3M.
Since 1994, the Reds have had 13 seasons with over 2M attendance. Since 1994, the Padres have had 27 seasons with over 2M attendance.

Similar records. Very dissimilar attendance numbers.

The Padres are selling out every game because of what they have done in RECENT history. That's the key point.
What the Padres did 10 years ago or so has no impact of how many tickets they sell this year --- to a point.. obviously it's possible for a team to permanently drive people away (like Phil C is doing).
I only mentioned history because you said <paraphrased> that the Reds would never draw 2.5 million a year.. Well, if you modestly round up, they did.
If the Padres had a fire sale like the Reds did last winter, season ticket holders would demand refunds as some Reds season ticket holders did.
I really don't understand why you are arguing this.
When the Reds try to win (Even half-heartedly) , they draw well.
When the Reds don't try, they don't draw well.
Reds have never made an effort to win as the Padres are doing now. Maybe if you could the Big Red Machine, but my god, that was almost 50 years ago.
IMO, the whole "market" thing is a myth.
The Padres, Brewers, and Cardinals all sell a lot of tickets because they are good entertainment. All three of those cities are similar in market size to the Reds.

[JustaFan]

I was alive and attending games when Cincy had the Royals and watched them trade away a key player (too many non-white players) and then they were sold. I listened to and read fans who joked and gave up on that cheapskate Brown and his refusal to try and win with the Bengals. why didn't he sell the team!! Many of the observations on owners re base all apply to the other two-sports.

interesting trivia - a billionaire in St Louis paid salaries to major world reknown chess players and built a prime facility and now the City is the home of an international franchise. I include only as an example of the power of excess money.

[InsaneinthBrame]

The Padres are selling out every game because of what they have done in RECENT history. That's the key point.
What the Padres did 10 years ago or so has no impact of how many tickets they sell this year --- to a point.. obviously it's possible for a team to permanently drive people away (like Phil C is doing).
I only mentioned history because you said <paraphrased> that the Reds would never draw 2.5 million a year.. Well, if you modestly round up, they did.
If the Padres had a fire sale like the Reds did last winter, season ticket holders would demand refunds as some Reds season ticket holders did.
I really don't understand why you are arguing this.
When the Reds try to win (Even half-heartedly) , they draw well.
When the Reds don't try, they don't draw well.
Reds have never made an effort to win as the Padres are doing now. Maybe if you could the Big Red Machine, but my god, that was almost 50 years ago.
IMO, the whole "market" thing is a myth.
The Padres, Brewers, and Cardinals all sell a lot of tickets because they are good entertainment. All three of those cities are similar in market size to the Reds.

Padres all of a sudden started spending money and the attendance figures rose as they put a better team on the field. Top 5 in payroll and attendance now.

Attendance has become a much smaller part of the revenue pie that I think that it does not factor into some owners economic plans especially with revenue sharing. What the Padres are doing is exposing how badly smaller markets are exploiting the revenue sharing system to make a buck. 1M in attendance only results in approximately 25M more revenues for a team because half the money does not change because of the revenue sharing rules. Average money spent by a person roughly $50 (family of 4 is 200)