What will it take for Reds fans to forgive the Castellinis?

[GAC]

I grew up in the 60s and 70s. It was a totally different game. And I've watched it change over these many years - especially since the early 90s on - and it's just gotten harder and harder for a small market team to win it all. And money is the main issue. The "disparity" is becoming too big IMO. Sure, the Red's ownership could (should) spend more. But if you doubled their current payroll (82M according to FG), that still would only have them near the middle of the pack in MLB.

"I don't have money like an LA or NY to spend on talent, so I'll scout, draft, and develop it through my farm system."

I have no issues with this concept. But those big payroll teams, like LA, are also doing the same. The Reds and Pirates, according to rankings, have invested and improved their farm systems over the years. They are currently ranked 4th and 8th. Where have they been at in the divisional standings again? While their prospects may be making progress, it's not translating to the major league level for their respective teams as far as success goes.

And we're all tired of being told to be patient.

While there are always exceptions to the rule (KC, Cleveland, and Washington), look at who has dominated in World Series appearances over the last decade.

Yeah. The Red's organization is currently being ran/managed by nincompoops (which makes it even harder). But the uphill battle for these teams is getting steeper and steeper. It'll be like catching lightning in a bottle, which is sad for the fans.

Very disheartening.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I grew up in the 60s and 70s. It was a totally different game. And I've watched it change over these many years - especially since the early 90s on - and it's just gotten harder and harder for a small market team to win it all.

What do you consider small market?

Does St. Louis count?

Do the Marlins?

At one point, some in baseball insisted Houston was considered small market.

I'd consider the White Sox a smaller market club-- at least sometimes. Anaheim too.

[MikeS21]

I think a harder issue is that there are just a handful of impact players who will help their teams win. Those are the players getting the ten year, $500 million deals from the large market teams.

The rest are getting paid big money, but have enough holes in their game that they aren’t really helping their teams move the needle any more than dumpster dive finds and younger cheaper players are helping. I always remind myself that free agents are free agents for a reason. Teams will find a way to hang on to the players who can actually help a team win. (Unless you are the Reds, of course).

[Sea Ray]

What do you consider small market?

Does St. Louis count?

Do the Marlins?

At one point, some in baseball insisted Houston was considered small market.

I'd consider the White Sox a smaller market club-- at least sometimes. Anaheim too.

I would consider St Louis mid-market. Marlins small. Anaheim, Houston, Chicago large

[MikeS21]

What do you consider small market?

Does St. Louis count?

Do the Marlins?

At one point, some in baseball insisted Houston was considered small market.

I'd consider the White Sox a smaller market club-- at least sometimes. Anaheim too.

Actually, I think advertising agencies are the ones who define “small” versus “large” markets. If an ad agency creates a TV commercial for selling cars, their clients can reach many more customers with that commercial in New York or L.A. than they will in Cincinnati or Pittsburgh. That means that teams in New York and LA can charge more to run that commercial between innings of a game than the Reds or Pirates can.

That’s the difference between large and small markets. No matter how much money gets distributed in national media deals, it’s those local media deals that are going to keep the separation in place. And with the demise of Bally Sports, it’s getting worse.

[Sea Ray]

MLB has to do something about the payroll discrepancy. They can't have a $300mill difference between #1 and #32. That's nuts and not seen in any other sport. That doesn't mean the Mets will win it all and the A's will come in last but it's just not right on so many levels, including competitive balance

GAC put it nicely when he said something to the effect of "it's nice to build through your farm system but the rich teams are doing that too." You're still at a huge disadvantage

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/

[Bourgeois Zee]

Actually, I think advertising agencies are the ones who define “small” versus “large” markets. If an ad agency creates a TV commercial for selling cars, their clients can reach many more customers with that commercial in New York or L.A. than they will in Cincinnati or Pittsburgh. That means that teams in New York and LA can charge more to run that commercial between innings of a game than the Reds or Pirates can.

That’s the difference between large and small markets. No matter how much money gets distributed in national media deals, it’s those local media deals that are going to keep the separation in place. And with the demise of Bally Sports, it’s getting worse.

So who, then, are the small market clubs?

Is St. Louis? Houston? Anaheim? The White Sox? The Nationals?

There are some easy calls-- the Yankees, Giants, and Red Sox. The Dodgers, of course. Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Kansas City at the opposite spectrum.

But Tampa, for example, should probably be viewed differently than it is. Miami too.

I'm just trying to get a handle on what a small market is before making any grand proclamations.

[plantmanky]

Just like in the lockout threads you never fail to support and defend the Owners while blaming the Players for everything wrong in the game.

Are the players not the ones on the field? Who else can you blame for performance?

So in your eyes, its ownerships fault that the players didnt get a single hit in a playoff game? Didnt score a single run in a playoff series?

[InsaneinthBrame]

Actually, I think advertising agencies are the ones who define “small” versus “large” markets. If an ad agency creates a TV commercial for selling cars, their clients can reach many more customers with that commercial in New York or L.A. than they will in Cincinnati or Pittsburgh. That means that teams in New York and LA can charge more to run that commercial between innings of a game than the Reds or Pirates can.

That’s the difference between large and small markets. No matter how much money gets distributed in national media deals, it’s those local media deals that are going to keep the separation in place. And with the demise of Bally Sports, it’s getting worse.

I disagree with this because if you use this definition the Reds are a mid to large market because the amount of eyeballs that can get a Reds game is very large. Because you have tons of people in Indiana/Ohio/Kentucky/West Virgina that can get the Reds.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Are the players not the ones on the field? Who else can you blame for performance?

So in your eyes, its ownerships fault that the players didnt get a single hit in a playoff game? Didnt score a single run in a playoff series?

Can we blame the owners for the prices of the tickets, concessions, and parking?
Can we blame ownership for the blank refusal to spend money on quality players?

Because Ron clearly stated wrong with the game.
Most of the ills directly related to the Reds are because of ownership.
They'd rather make money than win.
They're not trying to win at all-- and have admitted as much multiple times.

[HammerTime]

Mike Brown hasn't changed a bit. He lucked into Joe Burrow and a few things fell his way whereas things earlier didn't so I guess he was due (KiJana Carter's injury; Akili Smith's drinking, Palmer's knee injury)

I accepted that MB was a poor owner but he also wasn't going anywhere so I rooted for the Bengals to win inspite of him

MB has also taken a step back over the last several years.

[TheBigLebowski]

I'd like to see the Greene extension for no other reason than it demonstrates a little give-a-crap from them, but I'm still not sold Hunter is going to be someone we commit major buxxxxxx to over a decade.

I'm not sure he's ever going to figure out a way to keep the ball in the park. Especially Great American Ballpark.

Now, if we get to the midpoint of 2023 and Greene is dealing, yeah, let's talk.

[plantmanky]

Can we blame the owners for the prices of the tickets, concessions, and parking?
Can we blame ownership for the blank refusal to spend money on quality players?

Because Ron clearly stated wrong with the game.
Most of the ills directly related to the Reds are because of ownership.
They'd rather make money than win.
They're not trying to win at all-- and have admitted as much multiple times.

The Reds have spent money on players though, and every time they do, the players never preform. What did all those 2020 signing players produce, nothing. What did all those players signed in 2010-2013 produce, nothing.

So why would ownership keep spending money, to just spend money, when there is nothing produced from spending the money?

[westofyou]

Many forget that ownership has spent money on players, and those players did not preform, multiple times in the playoffs. So why as ownership would you continue to spend large amounts of money on players when they dont preform.

Reds players always get a pass for some reason.

Fart Noise

[MoneyInTheBank]

I have disagreed and continue to disagree with how this front office has handled things but I'm going to put that aside for now:

How this front office supplements the graduating prospects is going to be the defining thing for me

- does this team have a core at any point locked into LTCs? Or is it going to be ruthless roster churning?
- will they get legit veteran pitching around the young starters? Or is it the duct tape and bubble gum guys in the spots not occupied by homegrown starters?
- will they look to acquire upper echelon MLB talent via trade and free agency? Or do they just keep cycling through the Pham/Myers types on 1 year deals and only trade MLB talent for prospects?
- where does payroll ultimately settle? Are they going all in on a $60-80M payroll and pushing it to $100M when they "see a window"? Or do they pick a number and annually try and field the best team they can at that number?
- once they have determined they have $ to spend, will they be able to resist the temptation of overpaying for a big name, past prime, non-elite player?