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Thread: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

  1. #121
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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Just when I had pretty much given up on the Jazz making the play in they go back to back over Boston and Sacto. The future is exciting for the franchise. Hopefully not TOO far away!

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  4. #122
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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Utah did one of these tonight against the Kings -



    There was even a Kris Dunn sighting involved. He scored 18 and dished out 10 assists to secure the win for the Jazz.
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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Who's more upset about the result of that game: Mike Brown or Danny Ainge?

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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    Who's more upset about the result of that game: Mike Brown or Danny Ainge?
    Danny for sure. "But we started Simone Fontecchio..."
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  10. #125
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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Yeah I mean they sat Lauri, Clarkson and Sexton (he’s been hurt for a little bit), still came out like a house on fire and then rallied after the Kings came back. What a funny team.

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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRed27 View Post
    Yeah I mean they sat Lauri, Clarkson and Sexton (he’s been hurt for a little bit), still came out like a house on fire and then rallied after the Kings came back. What a funny team.
    They kind of remind me of when the Celtics tried to tank in 2013, hired Brad Stevens as coach and only got one truly bad year out of it. Ainge keeps acquiring useful players so his teams are never horrible enough to get great lottery odds.
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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I wonder if Charlotte would move Gordon Hayward for Collins. Quality free agents aren't going there and they make bad choices.
    Looking ahead, a possible frontline of Collins, Washington and Bridges, who is expected to return before the end of the season, could be interesting. And they have traditional bigs Richards and Williams with Oubre Jr. able to return to his natural SF position. In short, Hayward wouldn't be missed.

    Speaking of the Hornets regularly making bad choices regarding roster construction and player development, MJ is reportedly selling his controlling shares of the franchise. That's a plus right there.
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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    They kind of remind me of when the Celtics tried to tank in 2013, hired Brad Stevens as coach and only got one truly bad year out of it. Ainge keeps acquiring useful players so his teams are never horrible enough to get great lottery odds.
    Good analogy.

    You have to wonder where the Celts would be without the abject failure of the '13 trade by the Nets, particularly the failure to provide pick protection by Billy King. Otherwise, the high number of quality picks for the Celts wouldn't have materialized.

    You can also say the same for the pre '17 draft trade with the Sixers, when the Celts would have taken Tatum anyway if they hadn't traded down. If Colangelo really wanted Fultz - and given intel at the time, I can't blame him at all - Fultz would have assuredly been there at #3 anyway. Say what you will about Sam Hinkie, but there's no way he would have traded up in that case. If anything, he would have traded down and stockpiled talent from that deep, productive draft while cycling assets.
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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    Speaking of the Hornets regularly making bad choices regarding roster construction and player development, MJ is reportedly selling his controlling shares of the franchise. That's a plus right there.
    Could be a "save the franchise" moment if it materializes. They're going nowhere with MJ making basketball decisions.
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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Could be a "save the franchise" moment if it materializes. They're going nowhere with MJ making basketball decisions.
    Definitely.

    But playing Devil's Advocate - Not that I agree with it - I can somewhat understand Jordan's MO regarding roster construction (not an all an excuse for their poor player developmental record, particularly MKG). His first priority is not to build a team that can someday realistically contend for the championship: it's about simply qualifying for the playoffs (or play-in tournament) while utilizing mostly recognizable former CBB players, whether or not they played in the ACC to maintain fan interest/attendance.

    In other words, he's just fine with treadmilling because he fears a true rebuilds (even though this what the fanbase wants) will harm attendance. He thinks too short-term. It's the same method of idiocy that caused him to sign Al Jefferson in the Summer of '13, when the focus should still have been on additional higher draft picks to supplement Kemba Walker with talent.

    Detroit under Tom Gores' ownership operated much the same way until the Blake Griffin trade hamstrung the franchise ( supposedly, Stan Van Gundy opposed the move, but was mere foot soldier) and he then hired Troy Weaver to run the show.
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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    Definitely.

    But playing Devil's Advocate - Not that I agree with it - I can somewhat understand Jordan's MO regarding roster construction (not an all an excuse for their poor player developmental record, particularly MKG). His first priority is not to build a team that can someday realistically contend for the championship: it's about simply qualifying for the playoffs (or play-in tournament) while utilizing mostly recognizable former CBB players, whether or not they played in the ACC to maintain fan interest/attendance.

    In other words, he's just fine with treadmilling because he fears a true rebuilds (even though this what the fanbase wants) will harm attendance. He thinks too short-term. It's the same method of idiocy that caused him to sign Al Jefferson in the Summer of '13, when the focus should still have been on additional higher draft picks to supplement Kemba Walker with talent.

    Detroit under Tom Gores' ownership operated much the same way until the Blake Griffin trade hamstrung the franchise ( supposedly, Stan Van Gundy opposed the move, but was mere foot soldier) and he then hired Troy Weaver to run the show.
    I don't think that's a bad plan if they're consistently in the playoffs, but it's now 2 times in 13 years. It all goes back to talent evaluation. If you have that, then your plan is going to work. Draft, free agency, trades - they always seem to get it wrong.
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    NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I don't think that's a bad plan if they're consistently in the playoffs, but it's now 2 times in 13 years. It all goes back to talent evaluation. If you have that, then your plan is going to work. Draft, free agency, trades - they always seem to get it wrong.
    Consistently making the playoffs is one thing. Consistently qualifying as a 6th or higher seed, where your odds of breaking through and advancing in the playoffs increase exponentially, is another matter. And unless you are a mega free agency destination, 9 times out of 10 that involves assembling a roster with multiple top 5 picks and or parlaying such picks into solid cornerstone veterans.

    The Pacers are the only franchise I can think of that have rather consistently won while assembling Championship contenders with only one top 5 pick (Rik Smits) or former top 8 pick. In fact, they assembled three separate contending corps that way.

    But you have to admit they were very fortunate that 12 teams inexplicably passed on Reggie Miller; the Blazers were foolish enough to part with Jermaine O’Neal (sorry to bring that up, Kingspoint); the Bulls essentially handed them both Brad Miller and Ron Artest before he went postal and that Utah selected Hayward instead of Paul George.

    The Wizards also belong in this stuck in treadmill purgatory, if that, conversation. It’s simply criminal that they failed to build a legitimate contender around two future hall-of-famers in Wall and Beal in their primes. Then again, they recently flat-out fleeced the Lakers in the Westbrook deal and grabbed Porzingis for pennies-on the dollar, so perhaps times are a changin’ in the Nation’s Capital.

    Lastly, back to the Hornets, for as poor as this incarnation of this franchise has been overall with talent evaluation, let’s remember they have arguably been worse with player development. Granted, they have often reached for recognizable CBB players, but you have to figure any competent organization would have developed Cody Zeller into another Troy Murphy or Brad Miller; MKG into at least another Andre Iguodala and Malik Monk into, at the minimum, a poor man’s version of this generation’s Lloyd Free - the San Diego Clippers version.


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  20. #133
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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    Consistently making the playoffs is one thing. Consistently qualifying as a 6th or higher seed, where your odds of breaking through and advancing in the playoffs increase exponentially, is another matter. And unless you are a mega free agency destination, 9 times out of 10 that involves assembling a roster with multiple top 5 picks and or parlaying such picks into solid cornerstone veterans.

    The Pacers are the only franchise I can think of that have rather consistently won while assembling Championship contenders with only one top 5 pick (Rik Smits) or former top 8 pick. In fact, they assembled three separate contending corps that way.

    But you have to admit they were very fortunate that 12 teams inexplicably passed on Reggie Miller; the Blazers were foolish enough to part with Jermaine O’Neal (sorry to bring that up, Kingspoint); the Bulls essentially handed them both Brad Miller and Ron Artest before he went postal and that Utah selected Hayward instead of Paul George.

    The Wizards also belong in this stuck in treadmill purgatory, if that, conversation. It’s simply criminal that they failed to build a legitimate contender around two future hall-of-famers in Wall and Beal in their primes. Then again, they recently flat-out fleeced the Lakers in the Westbrook deal and grabbed Porzingis for pennies-on the dollar, so perhaps times are a changin’ in the Nation’s Capital.

    Lastly, back to the Hornets, for as poor as this incarnation of this franchise has been overall with talent evaluation, let’s remember they have arguably been worse with player development. Granted, they have often reached for recognizable CBB players, but you have to figure any competent organization would have developed Cody Zeller into another Troy Murphy or Brad Miller; MKG into at least another Andre Iguodala and Malik Monk into, at the minimum, a poor man’s version of this generation’s Lloyd Free - the San Diego Clippers version.
    Denver's on it's 5th straight top 6 without a top 5 pick (Gordon was a #4 pick, but not for the Nuggets who got him cheap after he spun his wheels in Orlando). Golden State didn't have any top 5 picks. Phoenix has only hit on one top 5 pick (Ayton). J-Valls was the only top 5 pick for the Raptors when they spent 7 straight seasons near the top of the East, and he got dealt during their title-wining season (for win connoisseur Marc Gasol). The only top 5 pick Milwaukee got turned out to be Jabari Parker. Miami hasn't seen a top 5 pick since Michael Beasley. OKC is on the up before it's one top-5 pick has arrived.

    Honestly, I think the deep tank is a real bad way to build a team. Partially because it's hard to stop being a wreck once you've purposefully created a wreck. Memphis, Boston and Cleveland have done well in the top 5, but they seem to find players via every other avenue too.

    I agree the Hornets are miserable at development as well, though I suspect Zeller was a dinosaur that was getting killed by the pace-and-space comet. It was fatal to Zellers and all but one Plumlee. I don't know about MKG. He was such a stiff by the time I started paying attention that I can't envision it. Yet no one seems to progress on that team. LaMelo and P.J. Washington are the latest examples. They haven't gotten one ounce better, arguably they've gotten worse.
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  21. #134
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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    I was hoping for a tight contest with the Celtics at the Kings. Especially wanted to see the crowd get amped up. Didn't happen because the Celtics went megaton. Their ball movement was superslick.
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  23. #135
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    Re: NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Denver's on it's 5th straight top 6 without a top 5 pick (Gordon was a #4 pick, but not for the Nuggets who got him cheap after he spun his wheels in Orlando). Golden State didn't have any top 5 picks. Phoenix has only hit on one top 5 pick (Ayton). J-Valls was the only top 5 pick for the Raptors when they spent 7 straight seasons near the top of the East, and he got dealt during their title-wining season (for win connoisseur Marc Gasol). The only top 5 pick Milwaukee got turned out to be Jabari Parker. Miami hasn't seen a top 5 pick since Michael Beasley. OKC is on the up before it's one top-5 pick has arrived.
    Fair points,

    But remember, I also qualified the argument with Top 8 picks, whether or not the contending team originally drafted them, and that also applies to Top 5 picks. But, for the sake of clarity, Top 10 picks or pre teen picks - the type you don't have access to draft-wise (not trading for them) by treadmilling - provide more context and better support my argument of building a realistic contender when you are not a mega free agent magnet, read: Miami or LA, to name a few. Examples: Golden State absolutely tanked to form their original core based around Curry; Likewise, OKC with Durant, Harden and Westbrook. Brook Lopez is a former Top 10 pick, and the Bucks aren't winning, much less contending, for a championship without him.

    Sure, you can argue it's possible to construct a contending core without at least one former Top 10 pick on your roster and/or utilizing such picks to add a superstar (See Toronto utilizing Derozen to acquire Kawhi - and I will fully admit that I was dead wrong utilizing Top 5 picks originally to prove my point - but it's highly, highly unlikely.

    Given that, it's still amazing to me that Indiana assembled three separate contending corps with only one top 5 pick (Smits) and one Top 10 (George), but they are definitely the exception, not the rule.

    Honestly, I think the deep tank is a real bad way to build a team. Partially because it's hard to stop being a wreck once you've purposefully created a wreck. Memphis, Boston and Cleveland have done well in the top 5, but they seem to find players via every other avenue too.
    That depends on the circumstance.

    For the circa '13 76ers to soldier on in a futile attempt to construct a contending core around Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner and Thad Young while owing multiple 1st round picks would have amounted to Hornets' level buffoonery. And Embiid is an example as to why you NEVER select inferior players simply because they are available right away.

    I think we can both agree that the cycling of assets stage is also critical and can delay the process of assembling a true contending core if bungled. See the 76ers post Hinkie until Morey assumed control.

    I agree the Hornets are miserable at development as well, though I suspect Zeller was a dinosaur that was getting killed by the pace-and-space comet. It was fatal to Zellers and all but one Plumlee. I don't know about MKG. He was such a stiff by the time I started paying attention that I can't envision it. Yet no one seems to progress on that team. LaMelo and P.J. Washington are the latest examples. They haven't gotten one ounce better, arguably they've gotten worse.
    Agree on LaMelo and Washington.

    Kind of a fun sup-topic, but I have to imagine the '12 and '13 drafts would have been conducted differently by several teams, including possibly the Hornets, were the pace-and-space era underway by then. Nevertheless, both Zeller and MKG, particularly Zeller, were both selected at least 5 spots higher than expected as recognizable, marketable College players. The selection of MKG, while it surprised the heck out of me at the time, actually made some sense if the choices were not Beal or Drummond, as his ceiling was considerably higher then that of Harrison Barnes.

    The selection of Zeller was another animal altogether, and he was a much better athlete than given credit for - see video from his days at IU - which was then compounded by the signing of Al Jefferson, whose talents overlapped Zellers and MKG instead of complimenting them, in an attempt to chase the 7th and 8th spot. They were successful doing that in '15, but at what cost? Anyway, I've mentioned this before but Zeller, while underwhelming for a number 5 pick, actually outperformed most of his draft class. But that's mostly a sad commentary on a notoriously weak class in which some of the best players (Robert Covington, for example) were not drafted at all.

    As a result, they failed to surround Kemba Walker with talent when they had ample opportunities to do so.
    Last edited by Revering4Blue; 03-22-2023 at 02:35 AM.
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