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Thread: Hunter Greene Part 2

  1. #16
    Member Kingspoint's Avatar
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    He probably will, but he'll be arb eligible with one foot out the door by the time he does. I'd rather he do it without the clock ticking. As you say, they don't need him in the big leagues right now (well they do because they completely ignored adding competent starters, but that's all part of the same problem).

    As for the coaching I don't buy it. If the minor league coaches, who are way more important btw, aren't good enough, then get new coaches don't rush kids to the big leagues after 180 minor league innings because you don't trust the minor league coaches.
    They need to clean house and get rid of everyone who's been in the organization for more than five years, and then don't just hire retreads from other organizations, but get some young minds into the organization.

    There's clearly been organizational flaws for decades and decades in the REDS' organization.
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."


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  3. #17
    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    Greene lived heavily on his four-seam fastball and threw it 58 times overall, according to Statcast, while throwing 34 sliders and one changeup.

    https://www.mlb.com/reds/news/hunter...ss-to-phillies

    We've all known for some time that he needs a third pitch. So how is it possible that he can throw 93 pitches, and only one of them is a changeup?

    How does the coaching staff allow that to happen? He'll never develop it if he never throws it!
    Everything is perfect, but there is a lot of room for improvement. --- Shunryu Suzuki-roshi

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  5. #18
    Goober GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    He was excellent for his last like 10 starts or so last year right? And he started throwing the change up a lot more then too.

    No idea why he’s not doing so now, but he’ll adjust. I’m not remotely concerned.
    He threw 1 change-up in yesterday's game. He heavily relies on his four-seam fast ball (with less then half in K zone). We're simply watching a young pitcher learn-as-you-go, and taking the good with the bad right now. I just don't think, at this stage of the game, he has the confidence in his secondary pitches he needs to develop.

    Very erratic/inconsistent. He strikes out the side in the 1st (12 pitches/9 strikes). Then comes back with a disasterous 2nd (33 pitches, three straight walks including one with loaded bases). Gone after 4 2/3 innings (93 pitches). And it was pretty much the same scenario OD, yet it was the 3rd inning that basically sunk him.

    I'm not going to say "he'll be fine"; but at the same time not make too much out of it since it was only his second start, that got pushed because of weather, and 7 days between starts. I've always been of the mind-set that it takes several starts, during that first month of the season, for pitchers, the more they pitch, to get their arms "stretched out" better conditioning for the long season. So unless a pitcher is a disaster in April, I don't make too much out of it at this stage. Especially when dealing with youngsters.
    Last edited by GAC; 04-08-2023 at 06:23 AM.
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

  6. #19
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by malcontent View Post
    Greene lived heavily on his four-seam fastball and threw it 58 times overall, according to Statcast, while throwing 34 sliders and one changeup.

    https://www.mlb.com/reds/news/hunter...ss-to-phillies

    We've all known for some time that he needs a third pitch. So how is it possible that he can throw 93 pitches, and only one of them is a changeup?

    How does the coaching staff allow that to happen? He'll never develop it if he never throws it!
    This is from the Enquirer on the subject:

    https://www.cincinnati.com/story/spo...s/70092832007/

    There was good reason why Greene trusted his fastball. He struck out the side in 12 pitches during the first inning. Trea Turner, Kyle Schwarber and J.T. Realmuto whiffed on every swing they took against his fastball.

    It wasn’t just the velocity, throwing 17 fastballs above 100 mph Friday, but the way Greene located them at the top of the strike zone. Eight of the first 11 swings against his fastball were whiffs.
    “I know there is definitely some opportunities to throw some breaking balls,” Stephenson said. “If you’re going to live and die with your best pitch – nobody has even really sniffed it at all. I know (pitching coach Derek Johnson) always says be great (at what you’re good at) and triple down on your strengths. I know there was a big stretch. At the end of the day, it’s like if you throw a bad (slider), next thing you know, they hook something and double. Make them prove they can (hit a fastball) before giving them the opportunity.”
    Hoping to change my username to 75769023

  7. #20
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I want the Reds to first prove that they can develop starting pitchers before worrying about their service time. I guess they did with Castillo, but he came from another organization. Mahle is the best they've developed since Cueto, but for the most part, the Reds have not proven that they can do it consistently.
    We had a throw away tear last year snd this year is the same. Greene is throwing 1-2 pitches and has no third pitch as of yet. That is exactly what minor league is for

    Just more reds stupidity last year Greene was a mess until last few starts (which could have been a simple September call up) What we are doing isn’t developing….just running out Greene as we can afford him on flint skin payroll

  8. #21
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    Mario Soto needs to be his mentor and be in his ear about the change up. But it still bothers me he is not being pitch effective. You can't keep throwing fastballs and not expect the hitters to adjust. Especially if your fastball is more straight and doesn't have slight movement. An Ace doesn't keep throwing 90 pitches by the top of the 5th inning..

  9. #22
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfan6272 View Post
    Mario Soto needs to be his mentor and be in his ear about the change up. But it still bothers me he is not being pitch effective. You can't keep throwing fastballs and not expect the hitters to adjust. Especially if your fastball is more straight and doesn't have slight movement. An Ace doesn't keep throwing 90 pitches by the top of the 5th inning..
    Maybe Mario isn’t a good teacher or coach. Not everyone can do that.
    Hunter is a smart kid. I’m confident he’ll get it figured out.

  10. #23
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    They need to clean house and get rid of everyone who's been in the organization for more than five years, and then don't just hire retreads from other organizations, but get some young minds into the organization.

    There's clearly been organizational flaws for decades and decades in the REDS' organization.
    Obviously everyone would like a roster/FO full of the sharpest, freshest minds and bodies, but no franchise can truly claim that. All fans agree that stocking a big-league roster with Stricklands and Luke Maile-types doesn't get you out of fifth place.
    I think the Reds current strategy is to build from the bottom up, and that's a fairly quick turnaround in philosophy from 2019 when they went with lightning in a bottle with Nick C., Moose and Bauer.

    Meanwhile, you have to keep agents happy and that's why you sign players like Chad Pinder, even if he isn't anything but a transaction. Agents need to be paid.

    Why? Because they control all the players. Eventually, you have to deal with them. All the same, this isn't tabletop sports. All franchises need veterans and all of them have those players. It's that the Reds recently have depended on these guys. In the future, the FO is saying the makeup of the team will be born in the organization, players they drafted or guys they got in the Mahle-Castillo trades.

    The house is being cleaned. It won't happen right away and it will continue to be painful.

    The truth is, as a fan from the middle 50s, seeing this franchise go a lot of directions over the decades and landing on only a couple of successful short-term eras, this is the second time I've seen them fully commit to youth. The first time was right after the 1961 pennant. It took a few seasons but the BRM eventually emerged. The 2020's will never allow that to happen again, but the idea is the same.

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    Old school 1983 (04-08-2023),texasdave (04-08-2023)

  12. #24
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by malcontent View Post
    Greene lived heavily on his four-seam fastball and threw it 58 times overall, according to Statcast, while throwing 34 sliders and one changeup.

    https://www.mlb.com/reds/news/hunter...ss-to-phillies

    We've all known for some time that he needs a third pitch. So how is it possible that he can throw 93 pitches, and only one of them is a changeup?

    How does the coaching staff allow that to happen? He'll never develop it if he never throws it!
    He came into spring talking about how much he worked on his changeup too. Wasn’t expecting Johan Santana, but I don’t understand why they’re letting it completely fall out of the mix again.

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    malcontent (04-08-2023)

  14. #25
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Maybe Greene should have been at AAA last year. It’s an arguable point with the benefit of hindsight. But not now.

    Greene is sufficiently advanced to now break in against the big boys. That’s what he’s doing and I think he’ll be fine. Growing pains, sure, but Reds are a non-contender so I wouldn’t fret about them.
    I don't think sending him back to the minors at this point makes any sense, but he was a guy with less than 200 minor league innings under his belt and was thrown into a big league rotation by default last year. He wasn't dominant in the minors, his pitches weren't developed, and neither was his ability to handle the load. So, last year was a developmental year and this year will be another. Next year he'll probably have his innings base under him and hopefully have better command of his secondary stuff and eventually I still think he'll be the Cy Young contender we expect him to be. I just think some of that development should have been done without the clock ticking so the reds could enjoy four or five seasons of Cy Young caliber Hunter Greene. The route they've gone means maybe they'll get one or two before he's too expensive to stay in Cincinnati.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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  16. #26
    Goober GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    I wouldn't think of sending him down until he shows that he needs to be sent down. But then again - what did/didn't they teach him while he was in the minors? That's what concerns me. Where was the emphasis when it came to his game? Lets see what happens as we continue to move forward. Isn't this PC Johnson's forte?

    And I think the Reds have shown, over the last 10+ years they can develop pitchers. It's just not that easy of a task.
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

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  18. #27
    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    “I know there is definitely some opportunities to throw some breaking balls,” Stephenson said. “If you’re going to live and die with your best pitch – nobody has even really sniffed it at all. I know (pitching coach Derek Johnson) always says be great (at what you’re good at) and triple down on your strengths. I know there was a big stretch. At the end of the day, it’s like if you throw a bad (slider), next thing you know, they hook something and double. Make them prove they can (hit a fastball) before giving them the opportunity.”

    Gibberish. Now if he said, "make them prove they can foul off and occasionally straighten out the FB while Greene is throwing 24 straight", I'd say he had the makings of a point. Because MLB hitters will, every time. Johnson is supposed to be a pitching guru. I just don't see that he's actually helping Greene out when he'll never let him develop his changeup.

    On top of that, Stephenson sounds like they don't even trust his slider enough.
    Last edited by malcontent; 04-08-2023 at 05:26 PM.
    Everything is perfect, but there is a lot of room for improvement. --- Shunryu Suzuki-roshi

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    GAC (04-09-2023)

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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    Who?

  21. #29
    Member fondfoat's Avatar
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    Shouldn't have come up until he had three pitches. Too late now.

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    mth123 (04-09-2023)

  23. #30
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    Re: Hunter Greene Part 2

    Um ... next up after Greene is Chase Anderson and Randy Wynne.


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