Would you bring Votto back?

[Sea Ray]

You keep saying that he does "nothing well". That was wrong the first time you said it, and it's still incorrect. And knowing that his BABIP is very low (.215) this season, counting on him for a .750 OPS isn't really the stretch you seem to think it is.

First of all I wouldn't "count on" a .750 OPS but even if he does reach that, it comes down to whether .750 is doing a job well. It's borderline to call it that yet you come across really strong with saying "that was wrong". I wouldn't necessary declare someone wrong if they said a part time .750 OPS doesn't reach the level of doing the job of hitting "well" especially if it's accompanied by a Mendoza line BA

[Big Klu]

Before the advent of the 13 man BP MLB teams regularly carried a guy who could bang off the bench. Most of the time these guys were older, or lacking speed, gloves and sometimes overall health.

Guys like Jerry Lynch, Smokey Burgess, Terry Crowley had those roles. It is essentially the role Jon Vander Wal was inked to. Roles like that shrunk as BP's grew, but I see them coming back with the proliferation of teams using multi position players, enabling them to move bodies more readily than in the past two decades. The way value is determined in the game is always shifting, don't get locked into a mind-set that says benches are this, bullpens are this, starters are this. Sometimes they are a little of this and little if that based on what you have on your roster.

A lot of people are locked into the 8 starters always, 7 inning pitchers, closers that get more than three outs, the Reds have no money and other longtime baseball norms. Could the Reds use a LH smasher off the bench that chewed up 5% of the teams PAs and could give you consistent good PAs? I think so, I also think that if we were talking about anybody but Joey and a far lower payroll hit then more than few naysayers might shift sides. It's a polarizing subject for certain.

Tony Perez was that guy for the Reds when he came back to the Reds from 1984 through 1986.

In 1985 as a 43-year-old backup 1B and PH, he hit .328/.396/.470/.866 in 207 PA's (183 AB's).

[westofyou]

Do you really consider this a LH smasher? "To those saying we need his power, only 1 time in the last 6 years has he hit over 15 home runs. So in his last 2604 at bats, he has 99 homeruns. Not what I would consider a real power hitter."

I agree, the payroll hit plays a big part

Who hit more HR's per PA on the Reds in 2023 than the injured Joey Votto?

Votto when healthy two years ago hit 36 HR's in the past two years the Reds have had two guys hit 20 + HR's Drurey and Steer. This team lacks power, especially LH power. Votto has power. That's undeniably true

[Sea Ray]

Mark Sheldon gives 4 reasons why the Reds should keep Votto.

(This came in an email, so there is no link)

Of those 4 reasons, zero dealt with his contributions on the field as a player. That's very telling

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Tony Perez was that guy for the Reds when he came back to the Reds from 1984 through 1986.

In 1985 as a 43-year-old backup 1B and PH, he hit .328/.396/.470/.866 in 207 PA's (183 AB's).

Now that's doing the job of backup 1B and PH well

[JCM11]

Mark Sheldon gives 4 reasons why the Reds should keep Votto.

And there still isn't a convincing on field argument to be had. The best one is leadership, and any of these guys could call or text Votto next year without him being on the team.

[villain612]

And the best indication of what could happen next year is what he’s done this year, which is be a league average bat.

Its certainly possible for him to come back and be a league average bat for sure.

And if we’re using recent history, its certainly possible that the shoulder is never the same and he misses close to 100 games again. These things get tricky with 40 year olds.

[SteelSD]

First of all I wouldn't "count on" a .750 OPS but even if he does reach that, it comes down to whether .750 is doing a job well. It's borderline to call it that yet you come across really strong with saying "that was wrong". I wouldn't necessary declare someone wrong if they said a part time .750 OPS doesn't reach the level of doing the job of hitting "well" especially if it's accompanied by a Mendoza line BA

If it helps, you're wrong too.

[LiferJim]

Who hit more HR's per PA on the Reds in 2023 than the injured Joey Votto?

Votto when healthy two years ago hit 36 HR's in the past two years the Reds have had two guys hit 20 + HR's Drurey and Steer. This team lacks power, especially LH power. Votto has power. That's undeniably true

I’ll give you that but you can’t overlook his power numbers the 3 previous years before his 36 Homerun year, as he was healthy then to.

He also admitted he was swinging for the fences earlier this year. How many HR’s has he hit since his return from the IL?

I don’t think the Reds can count on him to produce given his age and declining numbers. Players generally decline as they get older, not get better


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[Sea Ray]

If it helps, you're wrong too.

What makes you the arbiter of who's wrong?

[villain612]

Votto’s 2023 season:

June 19 - August 7th:
153 PA’s, 13 HR’s, .833 OPS, 116 wRC+

August 8th - now:
88 PAs, 1 HR, .600 OPS, 69 wRC+

He went back on the DL for the shoulder on August 24. Are the current numbers just a slump? Is it the shoulder? Is it Father time? Its a pretty big dropoff in power, which is the best argument to bring him back. I don’t know the answer.

Maybe the shoulder completely heals in the offseason. Maybe it doesn’t. But its a fair thing to consider.

[westofyou]

If it helps, you're wrong too.

Real live batting lines from the past two seasons

Player			   	        HR	BA	SLG
Kyle Schwarber				46	.218	.504
Pete Alonso				45	.217	.506
Kyle Schwarber				45	.196	.469
Max Muncy				36	.216	.486
Rowdy Tellez				35	.219	.461
Giancarlo Stanton			31	.211	.462
Cal Raleigh				27	.211	.489
Jack Suwinski				26	.220	.454
Patrick Wisdom				22	.206	.502
Gary Sánchez				19	.217	.492

[757690]

And there still isn't a convincing on field argument to be had. The best one is leadership, and any of these guys could call or text Votto next year without him being on the team.

I am less concerned about Votto’s production next season. If he’s not producing, he likely retires. I don’t care about the money, because it won’t prevent the Reds from adding whatever else they need.

[Slyder]

First of all I wouldn't "count on" a .750 OPS but even if he does reach that, it comes down to whether .750 is doing a job well. It's borderline to call it that yet you come across really strong with saying "that was wrong". I wouldn't necessary declare someone wrong if they said a part time .750 OPS doesn't reach the level of doing the job of hitting "well" especially if it's accompanied by a Mendoza line BA

Just to provide some perspectives.

A .750 ops would have been a God send for this franchise in 2012. A .750 ops would have put Votto in top half of all the starters from that year, and 2nd to a young Toddfather (min 20 abs and non catcher) on the bench. There's value if he can get that. This franchise is notorius for not providing a bench and leaving coaches handcuffed if someone is going to possibly miss a few days.

A .750 ops in 2013 would have put Votto 4th among the starting 8 ahead of Toddfather and Dat Dude. A .750 ops would have put Votto at the top of the bench (min 50 abs The Moustache ops .766 with 41 abs; Billy opsed .902 in 13 abs).

This franchise has never valued the bench players. Votto even at his reduced role still provides value. Until the franchise shows they're going to soup up the bench with legitimate hitters then so be it. As long as they continue to shuttle (insert AAAA guy with options here) operation for a bench then there's room for Votto.

[SteelSD]

What makes you the arbiter of who's wrong?

Well, you for attempting a semantic argument based on something I never actually said, for starters.

My position was, and is, that Votto's IsoD and IsoP both represent things he does "well"- plate discipline and power output. Those are real things and teams do make room for those on their benches.

[dubc47834]

He has been paid 225 million over 10 years. So maybe he was underpaid in his early years, but certainly not in his last 10 years. Look up his numbers the last 6 years and tell me he has been under paid at 22.5 million a year. I see that as him being overpaid, other than 2021. No reason to overpay him again. Winning puts more people in the stands than Votto. Plus as Redread pointed out, it handcuffs our bench having him as a bench player. Isn't winning more important than his farewell tour? I think it is

Look at LeatherPants post below your original post. Votto has been grossly underpaid over the duration of his contract. Winning is obviously more important than giving Votto a farewell tour, but we need to stop acting like we can't win if we keep Votto. Specially the statements that we don't have the money to do both, that's obsurd. Votto isn't an every day player, but the question was asked if I would bring back Votto, and that's a yes. I'm all about loyalty, and if I can be loyal to a HOF'er and long time fan favorite, I'm going to.

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I'm more interested in putting the best 26 guys on the field to win games. I don't care about what the franchise can afford, what will put butts in the seats or what Joey V did for this team in the past. I think a different 26th guy can better contribute to the team winning games

In our organization, Joey Votto is one of the best 26 guys.