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Thread: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

  1. #31
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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    I wonder if Burrow's contract he just signed is effecting his play?

    All of a sudden, he's got a quarter of a billion dollars to figure out what to do with it.
    I think that's a very fair question too.


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  3. #32
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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    I wonder if Burrow's contract he just signed is effecting his play?

    All of a sudden, he's got a quarter of a billion dollars to figure out what to do with it.
    I think the debilitating injury and lack of practice is probably a bigger factor in Burrow's poor start . Burrow was already set for life financially. This new contract is not a distraction


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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed View Post
    Something to consider:

    Outside of Reid and to a lesser extent McVay offensive minded coaches are usually a flash in the pan in the NFL. Shanahan might get a pass because he is basically running a suped up version of his dad's offense. Outside of Andy Reid the lifespan for an offensive minded head coach on one team isn't very long for this reason.

    Using Zac as an example, teams have seen his bag of tricks. Defenses have already started to adjust and the Bengals have struggled. I think this would also be true if Burrow wasn't hurt again.

    I look at Zac the same as Pete Carroll, John Harbaugh, or Mike Tomlin (God help me on the last two). He's rebuilt the culture taking the Bengals from being the NFLs version of the Jailblazers to a team who drafts based on character and leadership and it has paid off in getting them to the Super Bowl. That said he's only as good as his assistants and right now I think he would be better served to bring in an offensive coordinator who could inject some life into the offense.

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    Both coaches in each of the last 4 SBs have been offensive coaches. The lifespan of any coach in the NFL is short. Offensive coaches are no more a flash in the pan than any others.

    Last year teams adjusted to the Bengals, and then the Bengals adjusted to that and dominated. Every team is going to deal with some bumps. The Patriots did, the Chiefs looked very mediocre for a while a couple years ago as teams went 2 high on them. But great teams adjust, and for 2 years in a row Zac has figured out how to do that.


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  6. #34
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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    I think some here are conflating Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator positions.

    Zac Taylor certainly is...

    I think Taylor is a fine HC. As an Offensive Coordinator though, I think there's a lot of coaches out there that could do more with less, and the only reason why Taylor has either job right now is because he hit the jackpot with a generational QB.
    "Lemonade requires a significant amount of sugar. Otherwise, you've just made lemon juice."

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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    I think some here are conflating Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator positions.

    Zac Taylor certainly is...

    I think Taylor is a fine HC. As an Offensive Coordinator though, I think there's a lot of coaches out there that could do more with less, and the only reason why Taylor has either job right now is because he hit the jackpot with a generational QB.
    Some darn good takes on this subject.

    I'll also add that we know some of the limitations on offense with the OL, etc but that's part of the coaching staff's/organization's own fault too. We were lucky with Hurst's production but the early returns from Smith aren't great. Still early though.

    And, we also made an awful pick with Jackson Carman which pretty much everyone questioned to begin with.

    Our offense was the reason we didn't win a Super Bowl or the AFCCG last year. The defense is the reason we made both those runs.
    Last edited by Todd Gack; 09-27-2023 at 09:26 AM.

  9. #36
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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    Occam's Razor - the quarterback is physically unable to drop back, so the under center packages that were worked on in OTAs are not viable.

    I don't see Zac as an innovative coach, but he's shown to be good at adapting and stealing from the true innovators. If Burrow gets healthy enough, I think we'll see some new stuff in the offense. If he's going to be hobbled all season, then it's probably going to be 100% from the shotgun, which certainly limits what they can do.

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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    Another point I want to make about Burrow's injury is what I heard Rocky Boiman talk about this morning on 700WLW. He stated he sprained his MCL in his left leg in his 3rd year. He continued to go through practice and do everything a normal non-injured player would do. However, he ended up blowing out his calf muscle after about a month because he was using his right leg to support this body during that time.

    I fear Joe's injury is going to lead to another bigger inury. It's like a ticking time bomb.

  12. #38
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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    We are up to 15 heads coaches who also call plays - https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...-mike-mccarthy

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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    Another point I want to make about Burrow's injury is what I heard Rocky Boiman talk about this morning on 700WLW. He stated he sprained his MCL in his left leg in his 3rd year. He continued to go through practice and do everything a normal non-injured player would do. However, he ended up blowing out his calf muscle after about a month because he was using his right leg to support this body during that time.

    I fear Joe's injury is going to lead to another bigger inury. It's like a ticking time bomb.
    I take what Rocky Boiman says with a grain of salt. But what he says makes sense, with a weaker body part, it stresses the other parts. I don't know how much a strained calf muscle is related to a MCL sprain. I also don't know if a fringe, special teams player who must get by on all out hustle really applies to your franchise QB.

    I think there are things the Bengals are doing right now because Burrow is limited, but I don't think they are putting him at further risk. And to be honest, a guy like Rocky Boiman is easily replaceable in the NFL. Guys like Joe Burrow aren't, and they aren't going to put him out there if there is additional risk.

    There is going to be a portion of the fan base who thinks what they are doing with Burrow is wrong, regardless of what they do. That is fine, its pretty much accepted practice among NFL fans. I think Burrow is in a place where the calf is going to be a nagging issue, it probably will heal slowly with treatment, but he is going to play through the injury. I doubt there is additional risk that he is taking on, or he wouldn't be playing. I think the hope is he is able to push through the injury until the bye week and hopefully he will be in a better place outside of the bye week.

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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat13 View Post
    Occam's Razor - the quarterback is physically unable to drop back, so the under center packages that were worked on in OTAs are not viable.

    I don't see Zac as an innovative coach, but he's shown to be good at adapting and stealing from the true innovators. If Burrow gets healthy enough, I think we'll see some new stuff in the offense. If he's going to be hobbled all season, then it's probably going to be 100% from the shotgun, which certainly limits what they can do.
    Last game stole some motion from what the Dolphins have been doing. Also, for people complaining about an inability to scheme guys open, Chase is 5th in the NFL in "open" or "wide open" targets this year.
    Last edited by Hillsdale87; 09-27-2023 at 11:20 AM.

  17. #41
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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    I think some here are conflating Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator positions.

    Zac Taylor certainly is...

    I think Taylor is a fine HC. As an Offensive Coordinator though, I think there's a lot of coaches out there that could do more with less, and the only reason why Taylor has either job right now is because he hit the jackpot with a generational QB.
    Again, they finished 2022 4th in Offensive DVOA after starting the season very poorly. I don't know where the Bengals offensive personnel ranks in the league, but it's certainly near the top. WRs + QB are top 3, but the offensive line certainly causes them to drop. From a personnel standpoint, they're probably in the category of KC, Philly, and Buffalo, and that's right where they finished last year. At worst the offense is living up to realistic expectations. I don't think he's an incredible OC. He's certainly not wowed me, although I feel like we have to grade his OC performance as incomplete until Burrow can actually run the full offense, but he's coordinated a very good offense.

  18. #42
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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    Some darn good takes on this subject.

    I'll also add that we know some of the limitations on offense with the OL, etc but that's part of the coaching staff's/organization's own fault too. We were lucky with Hurst's production but the early returns from Smith aren't great. Still early though.

    And, we also made an awful pick with Jackson Carman which pretty much everyone questioned to begin with.

    Our offense was the reason we didn't win a Super Bowl or the AFCCG last year. The defense is the reason we made both those runs.
    One thing to note with the OL... It does seem like it's in a much better place so far this year. It's not an elite unit, but I was pretty impressed with the play against the Rams. It would have been ideal for the OL to be better in 2021, but that team probably was 1 or 2 years ahead of schedule. Nobody anticipated that a team coming off a 4-11-1 season with a QB recovering from a torn ACL was going to make a run to the Super Bowl. That's a credit to the coaching staff and of course the players. But I don't think that team was structured with Super Bowl in mind. If they could have seen into the future, they probably would have spent more time on the OL.

    It's a bit similar to the Reds this year where most thought this team would be terrible, and then almost everybody played above expectation. Had the organization been able to forecast the kind of production they got from the rookies, they probably would have done some different things in the offseason to shore up the team (or at least hopefully they would have - nothing about this season has changed my low confidence in ownership).

  19. #43
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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hillsdale87 View Post
    Last game stole some motion from what the Dolphins have been doing. Also, for people complaining about an inability to scheme guys open, Chase is 5th in the NFL in "open" or "wide open" targets this year.
    I don't know where that stat comes from and I'm only going by what the angles on TV show but I'm not seeing many guys open. I'm seeing Burrow throwing into really tight windows

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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    Good chart showing Burrow's struggles so far. He's a warrior to play through this, but he's completely lost the elite part of his game. Fortunate to be 1-2 considering the QB limitations, and hopefully he will continue to improve every week




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  22. #45
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    Re: 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Part III: De Ja Vu?

    Dehner has a nice article in the Athletic about the offense and the early struggles...

    Complex issue without 1 direct cause...
    Dropped passes (more than double what they had this time last year)
    Dumb penalties (Mixon, Boyd false starts)
    Run game (25% efficiency rating)
    Burrow health (Callahan said it was a cop out to use as an excuse but it does need to be acknowledged...Joe is not able to create on the run.)

    I think a lot of that gets fixed soon...but I do think having a training camp and preseason with the starters more involved may help work that out in the long run.
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