UK Basketball 2024-2025: Can It Get Any Worse?

[Bourgeois Zee]

'25 PG Jasper Johnson, a 5 star recruit originally from Kentucky and son of former UK football player Dennis Johnson is pretty much down to UNC and Alabama.

This one hurts. Johnson and Moreno were two in state talents Pope I really thought needed to lock down.

This was entirely foreseeable and is what happens when you choose guys with a history of recruiting at the lower end of recruiting lists.

Pope will have to win-- and win pretty-- for most elite recruits to take notice. That's going to be a process.

Kentucky's not going to get the elite guys you're used to seeing. The talent level is going to drop precipitously. You guys claims that Pope will be able to coach through that. I say the Cats are likely going to go through about a series of 10-loss seasons wherein the offense is fun to watch, the players stay four years, and the losses pile up. They might win a game or two in the NCAAs, so that's something. But the days of being at the forefront of the college basketball conversation are over for awhile.

[WVRed]

This was entirely foreseeable and is what happens when you choose guys with a history of recruiting at the lower end of recruiting lists.

Pope will have to win-- and win pretty-- for most elite recruits to take notice. That's going to be a process.

Kentucky's not going to get the elite guys you're used to seeing. The talent level is going to drop precipitously. You guys claims that Pope will be able to coach through that. I say the Cats are likely going to go through about a series of 10-loss seasons wherein the offense is fun to watch, the players stay four years, and the losses pile up. They might win a game or two in the NCAAs, so that's something. But the days of being at the forefront of the college basketball conversation are over for awhile.

I get that but at the same time you would think Pope would have a legit shot at what is essentially a legacy recruit.

I somewhat agree with you on Kentucky no longer being a national power. The reason though is NIL, although that and Cal leaving go hand in hand.

I wasn't crazy about the Pope hire when it happened but if you look at what Duke and UNC did they went with an alum. With NIL and coaches changing hats more than players as long as Pope wins you know he will be set here for as long as he wants to coach.

Ive posted this elsewhere but I don't see Cal coaching out his contract at Arkansas. If Sam Pittman gets fired and Cal underachieves (which could very well happen), all the NIL money that was going to basketball will be directed to a new football coach. And you and I both know Arkansas will get a good name coach.

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[Boston Red]

Fire Pittman and turn it over to his offensive coordinator...Bobby Petrino.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I get that but at the same time you would think Pope would have a legit shot at what is essentially a legacy recruit.

I somewhat agree with you on Kentucky no longer being a national power. The reason though is NIL, although that and Cal leaving go hand in hand.

Elite recruits aren't going to pull the trigger on Kentucky until Pope wins no matter who their daddies played for. Pope has to have the horses to win in the SEC. That's a vicious circle that you wouldn't have had with Calipari.

The NIL has nothing to do with it-- though that is a convenient excuse for those who were desperate for Calipari to leave or get fired. Kentucky has enough deep-pocket boosters to be competitive with anyone.

[WVRed]

Elite recruits aren't going to pull the trigger on Kentucky until Pope wins no matter who their daddies played for. Pope has to have the horses to win in the SEC. That's a vicious circle that you wouldn't have had with Calipari.

The NIL has nothing to do with it-- though that is a convenient excuse for those who were desperate for Calipari to leave or get fired. Kentucky has enough deep-pocket boosters to be competitive with anyone.

It does when boosters withhold money. Kentucky essentially starved Cal out to where he had to leave. When Pope was hired the money started coming back in.

But to add numbers, Kentucky ranked 36th in terms of how much money was donated by boosters:

https://www.aseaofblue.com/2023/8/25...ions-2005-2022

This was the year to make the break from Cal. Looking at the team we would have had this year it's pretty underwhelming (sub Travis Perry, Somoto Cyril and Jayden Quaintence for Johnell Davis, Jonas Aidoo, and Trevon Brazille, Kentucky would not have had the latter three)

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[Bourgeois Zee]

It does when boosters withhold money. Kentucky essentially starved Cal out to where he had to leave. When Pope was hired the money started coming back in.

But to add numbers, Kentucky ranked 36th in terms of how much money was donated by boosters:

https://www.aseaofblue.com/2023/8/25...ions-2005-2022

This was the year to make the break from Cal. Looking at the team we would have had this year it's pretty underwhelming (sub Travis Perry, Somoto Cyril and Jayden Quaintence for Johnell Davis, Jonas Aidoo, and Trevon Brazille, Kentucky would not have had the latter three)

They shouldn't have broken with Calipari at all. They'd have had a top 10 team had he stayed, with talent enough to win a national championship. Some boosters and fans are happy that he's gone. They prefer three- and four-year guys over team success, seemingly. I can't agree with that.

You can't say that Davis, Aidoo, and Crazille wouldn't have signed with UK with any degree of certainty. While NIL may matter (some), so does exposure and playing for the right coach. Calipari undoubtedly has had success in developing outstanding pros. His kids make more money than any other program, by a factor of at least two. That matters to recruits (and is, IMO, the primary reason why Pope will struggle to recruit). Even were we to accept that only, say, Davis would have been added, that (plus Petty, Cyril, and Quaintence) would have been a much more talented squad.

[WVRed]

They shouldn't have broken with Calipari at all. They'd have had a top 10 team had he stayed, with talent enough to win a national championship. Some boosters and fans are happy that he's gone. They prefer three- and four-year guys over team success, seemingly. I can't agree with that.

You can't say that Davis, Aidoo, and Crazille wouldn't have signed with UK with any degree of certainty. While NIL may matter (some), so does exposure and playing for the right coach. Calipari undoubtedly has had success in developing outstanding pros. His kids make more money than any other program, by a factor of at least two. That matters to recruits (and is, IMO, the primary reason why Pope will struggle to recruit). Even were we to accept that only, say, Davis would have been added, that (plus Petty, Cyril, and Quaintence) would have been a much more talented squad.

A top ten preseason team that would finish with eight or more losses with 18 year old kids going up against 23-24 year old super seniors and losing in the first or second round of the SEC and NCAA Tournament. That's been Kentucky basketball the past five years.

I can say it with certainty because Perry, Cyril, and Quaintence were already signed. Cal could have taken them but it means Wagner or Theiro likely transfers out, among others. They didn't follow Cal to Arkansas so the three spots were open there that wouldn't have been open here.

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[cumberlandreds]

Doesn't matter who Cal was signing because he hasn't won anything since before the pandemic. It was time to move on.

[WVRed]

Doesn't matter who Cal was signing because he hasn't won anything since before the pandemic. It was time to move on.

Exactly.

The game has changed. Cal hasn't (and won't). He's just got a bigger bag of NIL money to work with but if he has the same returns he had here that will dry up.

Only thing I hate is Cal staying in the SEC. Doing like Tubby would have been more palatable but I think outside of the Tyson connection he likely has contacts still in Memphis which isn't far away. Would have rather seen him take Ohio State if it would have opened up.



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[Bourgeois Zee]

Exactly.

The game has changed. Cal hasn't (and won't).

Calipari's offense was among the best in the game last season when he moved to a four-out/ five-out system focusing on jump shooting.

That's real change.

[cumberlandreds]

Calipari's offense was among the best in the game last season when he moved to a four-out/ five-out system focusing on jump shooting.

That's real change.

And they still lost in the first round to Oakland. That's the reason for change.

[WVRed]

Calipari's offense was among the best in the game last season when he moved to a four-out/ five-out system focusing on jump shooting.

That's real change.

And in spite of that, two things happened:

1. Same result in the postseason.

2. After leaving for Arkansas, the coach credited with that system change, John Welch, left to coach with Vance Wahlberg (creator of the DDMO) at Fresno State.

What did Cal do? Brought back Kenny Payne instead. Just going back with what he knows.

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[Bourgeois Zee]

And in spite of that, two things happened:

1. Same result in the postseason.

2. After leaving for Arkansas, the coach credited with that system change, John Welch, left to coach with Vance Wahlberg (creator of the DDMO) at Fresno State.

What did Cal do? Brought back Kenny Payne instead. Just going back with what he knows.

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You said Cal never changes.

He changed.

He's changed several things over the past five seasons.

1. He went to a more veteran team, trying to add insta-starter transfers through NIL.
2. He recruited lesser, but still veteran talent on the transfer market, hoping to field a veteran team.
3. He eschewed defense for more mobile, then better shooting bigs.

In a one-loss-and-you're-out tournament, things happen. But the canard that Calipari didn't change is flat-out wrong.

[Bourgeois Zee]

And they still lost in the first round to Oakland. That's the reason for change.

Partly.

Partly, it's that boosters weren't happy with Calipari's penchant for taking credit or money and ignoring them. Partly, it's that Calipari cared/ cares more about his players than his university. (That's a big one for many of you fans.)

They say the opportunity to replace him and took it.

[Ky Fried Redleg]

And they still lost in the first round to Oakland. That's the reason for change.

Reed Sheppard and DeJuan Wagner with 3 points between them. Neither guy could do squat. Can't blame Cal for that. If either guy shows up at all, KY and Cal might have made a deep run. A lot of fans wanted Cal gone for a long time. We'll see how long it is before they are wishing he was back.