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Thread: Could Bell be fired this season?

  1. #286
    Member mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ky Fried Redleg View Post
    Accountability? Interesting concept...never really thought about that. lol
    It's such a great concept, that no one can describe what it means. Here's an idea. A player performs terribly and keeps his job, his money his lifestyle and his Manager gets fired. That's not accountability. That's skating by while someone else suffers the consequences. I agree that the players should be held accountable. I just disagree with the proposals for how.

    Here is an example. Jonathon India sucks. Doesn't hit and can't really do anything else at a major league level on a baseball field. Cut his arse. That would accountable. That would be the GM's job, as would getting some one for the roster to replace him with. If that isn't feasible, than maybe the GM needs to be held accountable.

    Please describe what you want Bell to do to hold these guys accountable. I'll wait.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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  4. #287
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    So what does "holding them accountable" look like? When a guy goes 0 for 20, is that Bell's fault? Should Bell replace the player? Did the GM give him alternatives to replace him with? The whole organization fails when the team stinks. Replacing the Manager and leaving everyone else in place is not holding them accountable.

    If you want a change to emphasize accountability, firing the Manager is a cosmetic move. Make multiple organizational changes or you really aren't doing anything. IMO, Krall is the guy who needs to be held accountable.
    When a player like Steer has a stretch like this, he should lose playing time. It’s not about getting angry and throwing chairs. And I know the roster is thin… but literally any professional baseball player (including some pitchers) could go 13 for 90 with 5 extra base bits. DB treats these guys like they’re established vets who’ve earned the right to hit their way out of slumps. They’re not. They’re kids with a microscopic track record. Bench them and play mediocre AAAA veterans.

    Also… use openers. For Martinez and Ashcraft at least. Stop using Diaz as a traditional closer. Play matchups more in high-leverage spots instead of the rigid Sims-Cruz-Diaz trope.

    Stop leaning in so hard to “versatility.” Let guys cook in their regular defensive position and spot in the batting order. If they struggle - replace them.

    I guess… man… I just like a very “new school” approach to pitching. Forget defined roles. Forget starting pitchers. Forget closers. Deploy pitching in the most advantageous way, even if it’s the 2nd inning.

    And I like an “old school” approach to offense. Bat the same guys in the same spot in the order as often as possible. Don’t try to make everyone Ben Zobrist.

    And DB is the EXACT opposite. He uses a very new age analytical approach to lineup constitution, and he turns in to Dusty Baker when managing the pitching staff. I want the opposite of that as an organization philosophy.

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  6. #288
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    Straight up, when do you think a manager should ever be fired?

    Bryan Price didn’t put together the ungodly terrible 2018 team. Should we have kept him around instead of firing him when we did?
    If the intent is to improve the team's record, I think Manager's should be fired when an organization decides the plan isn't working and is fired in conjunction with multiple other organizational changes. Simply changing Managers is just scapegoating and letting the rest of the organizational failure off the hook. I could care less if Bell is fired or not, but I want the team to improve and simply firing the Manager, no matter who it is, in and of itself isn't going to make that happen.

    My opposition to firing Bell isn't because I like or feel sorry for Bell. I just don't want to let the rest of these jerks off the hook. Some players need to be gone and a change at the top should be seriously considered or at least be made clear in no uncertain terms that if these changes don't improve things, the GM or President of Baseball Operation or whatever the title du jour is, will be replaced after the season.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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  8. #289
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfan9988 View Post
    When a player like Steer has a stretch like this, he should lose playing time. It’s not about getting angry and throwing chairs. And I know the roster is thin… but literally any professional baseball player (including some pitchers) could go 13 for 90 with 5 extra base bits. DB treats these guys like they’re established vets who’ve earned the right to hit their way out of slumps. They’re not. They’re kids with a microscopic track record. Bench them and play mediocre AAAA veterans.

    Also… use openers. For Martinez and Ashcraft at least. Stop using Diaz as a traditional closer. Play matchups more in high-leverage spots instead of the rigid Sims-Cruz-Diaz trope.

    Stop leaning in so hard to “versatility.” Let guys cook in their regular defensive position and spot in the batting order. If they struggle - replace them.

    I guess… man… I just like a very “new school” approach to pitching. Forget defined roles. Forget starting pitchers. Forget closers. Deploy pitching in the most advantageous way, even if it’s the 2nd inning.

    And I like an “old school” approach to offense. Bat the same guys in the same spot in the order as often as possible. Don’t try to make everyone Ben Zobrist.

    And DB is the EXACT opposite. He uses a very new age analytical approach to lineup constitution, and he turns in to Dusty Baker when managing the pitching staff. I want the opposite of that as an organization philosophy.
    I actually agree with almost all of this. I just don't think most of those things are David Bell's decisions. I think the organization wants "versatile mix and match" players and has forced fed them onto the roster. It's one of my biggest issues with this roster design that I keep talking about. I think the organization wants to ride the guys they see as key, and I believe Steer is one of them. I think the organization has deemed Diaz the closer and that's the guy that they've provided Bell to use in that role. I just don't think he has the discretion to do the things you are saying here.

    I agree about the opener for Martinez and whether he relieved an opener or started was left in too long today and I think that falls squarely on Bell and Johnson (I actually think Johnson has final say in most pitching decisions).

    I think Bell has the approaches he has because that is what the organization wants and probably why they hired him to be the Manager - because he is on the same page as the organization. As I keep saying, if you want change as you describe, firing the Manager isn't enough. There needs to be organizational change for it to matter. Simply firing the Manager is placing the blame of him for all the things the organization has done wrong, but doesn't change the organization's edicts.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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  10. #290
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I actually agree with almost all of this. I just don't think most of those things are David Bell's decisions. I think the organization wants "versatile mix and match" players and has forced fed them onto the roster. It's one of my biggest issues with this roster design that I keep talking about. I think the organization wants to ride the guys they see as key, and I believe Steer is one of them. I think the organization has deemed Diaz the closer and that's the guy that they've provided Bell to use in that role. I just don't think he has the discretion to do the things you are saying here.

    I agree about the opener for Martinez and whether he relieved an opener or started was left in too long today and I think that falls squarely on Bell and Johnson (I actually think Johnson has final say in most pitching decisions).

    I think Bell has the approaches he has because that is what the organization wants and probably why they hired him to be the Manager - because he is on the same page as the organization. As I keep saying, if you want change as you describe, firing the Manager isn't enough. There needs to be organizational change for it to matter. Simply firing the Manager is placing the blame of him for all the things the organization has done wrong, but doesn't change the organization's edicts.
    I think there’s room in there somewhere for an organization to say, “okay, we’ve drafted and developed, and signed some guys… we have a fair amount of aggregate roster talent… but our organizational philosophy for player deployment is a failure - and we need to fire that whole department and replace it with people who can more efficiently deploy the MLB players we have”

  11. #291
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    Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfan9988 View Post
    When a player like Steer has a stretch like this, he should lose playing time. It’s not about getting angry and throwing chairs. And I know the roster is thin… but literally any professional baseball player (including some pitchers) could go 13 for 90 with 5 extra base bits. DB treats these guys like they’re established vets who’ve earned the right to hit their way out of slumps. They’re not. They’re kids with a microscopic track record. Bench them and play mediocre AAAA veterans.

    Also… use openers. For Martinez and Ashcraft at least. Stop using Diaz as a traditional closer. Play matchups more in high-leverage spots instead of the rigid Sims-Cruz-Diaz trope.

    Stop leaning in so hard to “versatility.” Let guys cook in their regular defensive position and spot in the batting order. If they struggle - replace them.

    I guess… man… I just like a very “new school” approach to pitching. Forget defined roles. Forget starting pitchers. Forget closers. Deploy pitching in the most advantageous way, even if it’s the 2nd inning.

    And I like an “old school” approach to offense. Bat the same guys in the same spot in the order as often as possible. Don’t try to make everyone Ben Zobrist.

    And DB is the EXACT opposite. He uses a very new age analytical approach to lineup constitution, and he turns in to Dusty Baker when managing the pitching staff. I want the opposite of that as an organization philosophy.
    Great post! I know just like other teams, there have been lots of injuries, but it’s the managers job to get the most out of his players. Clearly that isn’t happening. How many times have we seen starters left in three batters to many, when even us casual fans can see they have nothing left. That last sentence rings very very fresh in my mind.

    No one is going to convince me ALL these players are that bad.

    I know they aren’t going to fire the front office mid season, even though they’ve stunk, but Bell and the hitting coach should be gone asap.


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    Last edited by LiferJim; 05-22-2024 at 11:14 PM.
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  12. #292
    Member mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfan9988 View Post
    I think there’s room in there somewhere for an organization to say, “okay, we’ve drafted and developed, and signed some guys… we have a fair amount of aggregate roster talent… but our organizational philosophy for player deployment is a failure - and we need to fire that whole department and replace it with people who can more efficiently deploy the MLB players we have”
    I'm on board. That's a lot different than "Fire David Bell!" It probably includes firing David Bell, but simply changing Managers isn't the answer.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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  14. #293
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I'm on board. That's a lot different than "Fire David Bell!" It probably includes firing David Bell, but simply changing Managers isn't the answer.
    There’s a whole slew of guys that need to go


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  15. #294
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiferJim View Post
    There’s a whole slew of guys that need to go


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    and several of them are players on the roster.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

  16. #295
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    If the intent is to improve the team's record, I think Manager's should be fired when an organization decides the plan isn't working and is fired in conjunction with multiple other organizational changes. Simply changing Managers is just scapegoating and letting the rest of the organizational failure off the hook. I could care less if Bell is fired or not, but I want the team to improve and simply firing the Manager, no matter who it is, in and of itself isn't going to make that happen.

    My opposition to firing Bell isn't because I like or feel sorry for Bell. I just don't want to let the rest of these jerks off the hook. Some players need to be gone and a change at the top should be seriously considered or at least be made clear in no uncertain terms that if these changes don't improve things, the GM or President of Baseball Operation or whatever the title du jour is, will be replaced after the season.
    So you would not have fired Bryan Price when they went 3-20 in April 2018 or whatever it was

  17. #296
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I'm on board. That's a lot different than "Fire David Bell!" It probably includes firing David Bell, but simply changing Managers isn't the answer.
    I like David Bell. I think he’s a good person. I think he has a future as a baseball coach - or maybe even a manager. He’s just in over his head with this organization. The 2019-2021 “window” was a pretty big disappointment in hindsight. Yeah… there was COVID, and yeah… there were flawed rosters (‘19 and ‘20 teams couldn’t hit; ‘21 team had no bullpen). But there was enough talent on those rosters to do better than they did. 2022 was a mulligan. 2023 showed promise. 2024 has had significant obstacles, but this team isn’t close. There are at least 3 players who are trending towards 6 WAR (Elly, Greene, Abbott). And despite the star power and a decent supporting cast with Lodolo, Ashcraft, Montas, Sims, Cruz, Stephenson, Candelario, etc they’re absolutely non-competitive l. We’re the Rockies. Unacceptable.

  18. #297
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    and several of them are players on the roster.
    Absolutely!!!


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  19. #298
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    So you would not have fired Bryan Price when they went 3-20 in April 2018 or whatever it was
    Not if the organizational plan and some of the roster issues weren't addressed at the same time, If you don't do that, firing the Manager is just scapegoating.

    They needed to fire the guy who designed that rotation. And they did redesign the make-up of the rotation and the team got better until they tore it down again. Had nothing to do with the Manager. It had a lot to do with replacing Matt Harvey and Sal Romano with actual, productive big league starting pitchers.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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  21. #299
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfan9988 View Post
    I like David Bell. I think he’s a good person. I think he has a future as a baseball coach - or maybe even a manager. He’s just in over his head with this organization. The 2019-2021 “window” was a pretty big disappointment in hindsight. Yeah… there was COVID, and yeah… there were flawed rosters (‘19 and ‘20 teams couldn’t hit; ‘21 team had no bullpen). But there was enough talent on those rosters to do better than they did. 2022 was a mulligan. 2023 showed promise. 2024 has had significant obstacles, but this team isn’t close. There are at least 3 players who are trending towards 6 WAR (Elly, Greene, Abbott). And despite the star power and a decent supporting cast with Lodolo, Ashcraft, Montas, Sims, Cruz, Stephenson, Candelario, etc they’re absolutely non-competitive l. We’re the Rockies. Unacceptable.
    I disagree on the supporting cast. They regularly play Jonathon India at 2B and Spencer Steer in LF. They have guys like Benson playing against LHP. They lean heavily on career minor leaguers like Ford and Martini and they are built with about 5 guys who's only role should be DH and 3 of those guys don't actually hit enough to be a DH. They have a roster design that allows teams to exploit Benson, Fraley and EDLC by stacking LH against them. I do like the rotation and they've done surprisingly well there. I think the Bullpen will improve as guys get more regular roles. Guys like Diaz and Cruz are sporadically used because the team doesn't have leads, so they sporadically combust. Much of this is due to injuries, but a lot is philosophy. So either a lot of people need to be fired because the philosophy sucks or its all due to injures and everyone should be off the hook. I personally think the roster is flawed even if healthy, but having McLain and Friedl would probably make a lot of these issues less important.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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  23. #300
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    Re: Could Bell be fired this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    If the intent is to improve the team's record, I think Manager's should be fired when an organization decides the plan isn't working and is fired in conjunction with multiple other organizational changes. Simply changing Managers is just scapegoating and letting the rest of the organizational failure off the hook. I could care less if Bell is fired or not, but I want the team to improve and simply firing the Manager, no matter who it is, in and of itself isn't going to make that happen.

    My opposition to firing Bell isn't because I like or feel sorry for Bell. I just don't want to let the rest of these jerks off the hook. Some players need to be gone and a change at the top should be seriously considered or at least be made clear in no uncertain terms that if these changes don't improve things, the GM or President of Baseball Operation or whatever the title du jour is, will be replaced after the season.
    Ultimately, we as fans don’t get exposed to much of the day to day interactions. We are basing opinions off of perceptions, anecdotes, player performance.

    I see two things:
    1. A lot of offensive player under performances. Why is this and how do you fix it?

    2. Bell is a players coach. It’s a style I normally sway towards, but I don’t perceive him as a hard ass.

    I don’t know Jack about the day to day routines of the players. The coaching and advice they get. The checks and balances in place.

    At some point, the results speak for themselves and there isn’t anything to lose by making a switch. The current talent of the roster and injuries are clearly bigger factors than anything Bell related.


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