Joe Nuxhall No Longer Recognized As The Youngest Player In MLB History

[RedTeamGo!]

How much research did you do here, or do you have links to any studies you've read?

What made the white NL/AL players so good that only a percentage of the black players would be good enough to play in the NL/AL?

No major variation occurred in the racial composition There of the national population between 1940 and 1950. was a slight decrease from 89.8 percent to 89.5 percent in the proportion of white persons in the total population. The percentage of African Americans in 1950 was 10.0 in contrast to 9.8 in 1940.

Pretty simple math, the MLB was drawing from a much larger sample size of humans than the negro leagues. And that is just whites. IIRC the majors were bringing players from Caribbean at the time.

[Wonderful Monds]

I can agree with this. In a sport that fetishizes statistics to the degree that baseball does, it’s just gonna be weird.

I don’t like telling Negro League players their stats don’t count either. There’s really no good solution here.

I would create maybe like a “North American pro baseball” category that combines them, and then from there still have the distinction between MLB and the negro leagues

[Sea Ray]

I can agree with this. In a sport that fetishizes statistics to the degree that baseball does, it’s just gonna be weird.

I don’t like telling Negro League players their stats don’t count either. There’s really no good solution here.

They count, they just don't count as part of a league they didn't compete in. They were not part of the MLB. That is a fact, this their stats are not MLB stats. If one wants to call it a professional league stat or whatever, fine but they weren't part of MLB

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I would create maybe like a “North American pro baseball” category that combines them, and then from there still have the distinction between MLB and the negro leagues

Exactly. That's exactly what they should do

[LeatherPants]

They segregated out a league that had to pull from a smaller portion of population given that they are a demographic minority. If the argument is that the Negro Leagues matched the talent of the MLB at the time, that’s a pretty bold claim that carried a big burden of proof.

Josh Gibson would not have hit 962 home runs in the MLB. Just kinda take it from there and that’s the level of competition the best players were playing against

And Babe Ruth doesn't hit 714 if he has to face black pitchers, so that argument doesn't really fly either.

I'm not saying that everyone that played in the Negro League would have been able to play in the NL/AL, but I am asking where Keef came up with those numbers, which doesn't seem like an unreasonable thing to ask.

[dragonoffrost]

They segregated out a league that had to pull from a smaller portion of population given that they are a demographic minority. If the argument is that the Negro Leagues matched the talent of the MLB at the time, that’s a pretty bold claim that carried a big burden of proof.

Josh Gibson would not have hit 962 home runs in the MLB. Just kinda take it from there and that’s the level of competition the best players were playing against

Not sure where you get that HR total for Josh Gibson. He only has 174 on MLB.com

[LeatherPants]

Guys who played in the Federal League other Major Leagues have those stats as part of their MLB career stats, so I'm not sure how this is any different.

Several other early defunct baseball leagues are considered major leagues, and their statistics and records are included with those of the two modern major leagues. In 1969, the Special Baseball Records Committee of Major League Baseball officially recognized six major leagues: the National League, American League, American Association, Union Association (1884), Players' League (1890), and Federal League (1914–1915).

In December 2020, Major League Baseball announced its recognition of seven leagues within Negro league baseball as major leagues: the first and second Negro National Leagues (1920–1931 and 1933–1948), the Eastern Colored League (1923–1928), the American Negro League (1929), the East–West League (1932), the Negro Southern League (1932), and the Negro American League (1937–1948).[52] In 2021, baseball reference website Baseball-Reference.com began to include statistics from those seven leagues into their major-league statistics.[53] In May 2024, Major League Baseball announced that it was "absorbing the available Negro Leagues numbers into the official historical record."[54]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball

[Wonderful Monds]

And Babe Ruth doesn't hit 714 if he has to face black pitchers, so that argument doesn't really fly either.

I'm not saying that everyone that played in the Negro League would have been able to play in the NL/AL, but I am asking where Keef came up with those numbers, which doesn't seem like an unreasonable thing to ask.

It’s just kind of a guessing game, can’t really quantify it. But there’s an order of magnitude difference between Ruth hitting idk let’s say 50 fewer HRs, and Gibson hitting a couple hundred fewer.

[Wonderful Monds]

Not sure where you get that HR total for Josh Gibson. He only has 174 on MLB.com

It’s all over the place. His HOF plaque for example says he hit 800.

[LeatherPants]

Hall of famer Bid McPhee of the Reds played half of his career when the Reds were in the American Association and not the NL, but all those stats count as MLB stats because the AA was a Major League. Someone please explain to me how this is any different?

[Sea Ray]

Hall of famer Bid McPhee of the Reds played half of his career when the Reds were in the American Association and not the NL, but all those stats count as MLB stats because the AA was a Major League. Someone please explain to me how this is any different?

No comparison. The American Association played the National League in a kind of World Series back in the day. Furthermore the teams were so comparable that AA teams like our Reds were incorporated into the NL. Nothing of this sort was done with the Negro Leagues. They weren't at all comparable

[TRF]

If Campanella were white, He and Nuxhall might have been battery mates.

I don't care if it is called MLB, Pro Baseball or Canada. Don't care, doesn't matter. What does, is that Campy was 15, a catcher, and was good enough to play professionally.

But if the uproar over labelling puts a lens on the Negro League players so more learn about them, all the better.

[dragonoffrost]

It’s all over the place. His HOF plaque for example says he hit 800.

In league and "Independent" baseball.... Independent isn't recognized.

[LeatherPants]

No comparison. The American Association played the National League in a kind of World Series back in the day. Furthermore the teams were so comparable that AA teams like our Reds were incorporated into the NL. Nothing of this sort was done with the Negro Leagues. They weren't at all comparable

OK, so what about the Federal League or the Players League? Those stats count as major league stats too, and no pseudo World Series against the NL/AL either.

[M2]

Welcome to the "but equal" portion of "separate but equal." Nuxhall will remain the youngest to play for an official MLB club, but Campanella will be the youngest to play in what's considered a top tier league. Such is life. Both will get mentioned. That's the opposite of erasing history. It's recording the full context of history.

In basketball, Don Buse holds the official single-season record for most steals per game with the 1975-75 Indiana Pacers of the ABA. There's probably some NFL records that were set in the AFL. Matt Kilroy holds the MLB record for most strikeouts in a single season with 513 despite the fact that he played in American Association. Pretty sure WHA stats count as NHL stats. No one's clamoring to ignore the Houston Aeros. We've done variations of accepting the stats from not the official current top league in every major sport.

[KeefeCato]

How much research did you do here, or do you have links to any studies you've read?

What made the white NL/AL players so good that only a percentage of the black players would be good enough to play in the NL/AL?

It's just my opinion from reading several books on white and black baseball from the 30s 40s etc.
It's not a set in stone guarantee that I'm right or even close in the percentages.
That's why I said "Likely" the negro league had players that had they played their entire careers in MLB would have been first ballot HOFers.
They had players who would have been stars or hall of the very good.
They had players who would have played in the majors as mostly reserves.
They also had players who were more minor league caliber players.
I think everyone would agree with this about the overall talent level.