Jonathan India Trade Talks

[mth123]

Of course, but how does someone "earn" the playing time without getting playing time? Do guys like CES or Marte have anything left to prove at AAA or Spring Training?

Even a 10th or 11th guy ends up with more than 300 PAs. Perform well in those and you earn more PT. It's been that way as long as I can remember. Some guys who were top prospects are gifted a spot. EDLC is an example. So was Senzel. McLain as well. I don't think anyone else on the roster fits that description. TJ Friedl wasn't gifted a position, but he earned one by taking advantage of his chances.

[MoneyInTheBank]

Even a 10th or 11th guy ends up with more than 300 PAs. Perform well in those and you earn more PT. It's been that way as long as I can remember. Some guys who were top prospects are gifted a spot. EDLC is an example. So was Senzel. McLain as well. I don't think anyone else on the roster fits that description. TJ Friedl wasn't gifted a position, but he earned one by taking advantage of his chances.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that EDLC (against RHP) and McLain didn't earn their spots. I feel like they did exactly what you claim you want them to do. CES earned playing time last season but certainly took a step back this season. Marte probably got too much rope when he came back from suspension (and probably should have spent time at AAA). They brought in competition with Candelario, it just so happens everyone got hurt and suspended.

[mth123]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that EDLC (against RHP) and McLain didn't earn their spots. I feel like they did exactly what you claim you want them to do. CES earned playing time last season but certainly took a step back this season. Marte probably got too much rope when he came back from suspension (and probably should have spent time at AAA). They brought in competition with Candelario, it just so happens everyone got hurt and suspended.

CES earned a chance by hitting well in the minors (thanks to a strong BABIP offsetting an ugly K/BB ratio). He did well with red flags last year (numbers propped up by a .336 BABIP offsetting an alarming 4.92 K/BB ratio). This year he came out and tanked just as those red flags warned he might. His K/BB ratio jumped to 8.75 to1 and his BABIP "luck" deserted him. IMO, that's enough to lose whatever he earned last year. Back to having to earn it again. That doesn't mean cut him or give him away. It means they should pursue production from outside and not let his presence stand in the way and if internal options are better, he needs to supplant them with his play.

In EDLC case, he also earned his chance with his play in the minors. He did relatively well as a rookie and earned more opportunity. Then the guys who may have been alternatives to him were injured (McLain, Arroyo) or suspended (Marte) so he got uncontested PT and took the next step and now he's a fixture and an All Star. CES, Benson and, so far, Marte have all gone backwards. So, they need to go back to competing for a job.

[RiverRat13]

Of course, but how does someone "earn" the playing time without getting playing time? Do guys like CES or Marte have anything left to prove at AAA or Spring Training?

I feel like I addressed both guys in previous posts (including CES in the post you quoted), but to state again, if CES starts as the 10th or 11th positional guy going into the season and can stay healthy, he's still going to see 400-500 plate appearances due to normal rotation and injury. India was everyone's 10th guy this spring and he's going to get 600+ plate appearances. Heck, Stuart Fairchild was probably the 15th guy and he's going to get 250-300 plate appearances. CES will get the chance to prove himself even if after the offseason he isn't slated to play every single day. What would be dumb is to pencil him in as the clear starter at 1B or DH without trying to acquire someone better. Even dumber would be to trade India in the name of "value" just to clear room for him.

Marte had a wRC+ of 105 at Louisville last year. He had plenty to prove. He wasn't exactly dominating AA, either (117 wRC+). And there were questions about his glove. I think people here assumed that because he started as a SS professionally that he'd automatically be a good glove at 3B. Meanwhile guys like Eric Longenhagen at FanGraphs doubted Marte's ability to stick in the infield altogether. I hope he finishes strong both offensively and defensively to where he's clearly the guy at 3B, but again, it's not that big of a deal if he starts at AAA. He'll only be 23 next year.

[MoneyInTheBank]

CES earned a chance by hitting well in the minors (thanks to a strong BABIP offsetting an ugly K/BB ratio). He did well with red flags last year (numbers propped up by a .336 BABIP offsetting an alarming 4.92 K/BB ratio). This year he came out and tanked just as those red flags warned he might. His K/BB ratio jumped to 8.75 to1 and his BABIP "luck" deserted him. IMO, that's enough to lose whatever he earned last year. Back to having to earn it again. That doesn't mean cut him or give him away. It means they should pursue production from outside and not let his presence stand in the way and if internal options are better, he needs to supplant them with his play.

In EDLC case, he also earned his chance with his play in the minors. He did relatively well as a rookie and earned more opportunity. Then the guys who may have been alternatives to him were injured (McLain, Arroyo) or suspended (Marte) so he got uncontested PT and took the next step and now he's a fixture and an All Star. CES, Benson and, so far, Marte have all gone backwards. So, they need to go back to competing for a job.

If everyone is healthy in the IF, there is EDLC, McLain, India, CES, Marte, Steer, Candelario, Espinal, France. Looks like you and the Reds are in perfect alignment

[MoneyInTheBank]

I feel like I addressed both guys in previous posts (including CES in the post you quoted), but to state again, if CES starts as the 10th or 11th positional guy going into the season and can stay healthy, he's still going to see 400-500 plate appearances due to normal rotation and injury. India was everyone's 10th guy this spring and he's going to get 600+ plate appearances. Heck, Stuart Fairchild was probably the 15th guy and he's going to get 250-300 plate appearances. CES will get the chance to prove himself even if after the offseason he isn't slated to play every single day. What would be dumb is to pencil him in as the clear starter at 1B or DH without trying to acquire someone better. Even dumber would be to trade India in the name of "value" just to clear room for him.

Marte had a wRC+ of 105 at Louisville last year. He had plenty to prove. He wasn't exactly dominating AA, either (117 wRC+). And there were questions about his glove. I think people here assumed that because he started as a SS professionally that he'd automatically be a good glove at 3B. Meanwhile guys like Eric Longenhagen at FanGraphs doubted Marte's ability to stick in the infield altogether. I hope he finishes strong both offensively and defensively to where he's clearly the guy at 3B, but again, it's not that big of a deal if he starts at AAA. He'll only be 23 next year.

Apologies for not understanding what you meant. The Reds didn't clear the decks for CES or Marte this year and I wouldn't expect them to do so next year. The labels just get very squishy to me when we talk about the difference between gifting a position and doling out PAs. I think I largely agree with where you are and expect the Reds to do the same

[mth123]

If everyone is healthy in the IF, there is EDLC, McLain, India, CES, Marte, Steer, Candelario, Espinal, France. Looks like you and the Reds are in perfect alignment

1. My base IF would be Steer, McLain, EDLC and as of now Marte, but if he keeps doing what he's doing, probably Candy.
2. India would be the primary DH. He'd play 2B when EDLC or McLain sit.
3. Assuming Marte sticks at 3B, Candy would be the super sub who gets 500 PAs. Plays 3B when Marte sits, Is DH when India sits or is playing 2B. He'd play 1b when Steer sits or plays OF.
4. CES would compete with Candy for the super-sub role. If Candy wins 3B, he'd compete with Marte for that job, but it's likely if Candy is named the 3B, Marte goes back to AAA.
5. France and Espinal would be non-tendered because they are too expensive. Espinal's hot streak means maybe they can trade him and get a token prospect who won't really matter much. They may keep him into Spring Training to make sure McLain is good to go.
6. The roles for Steer, Candy, India, CES and Marte would all be subject to change if the Reds acquire a clean-up hitter who plays one of the 1B/3B/DH positions. If one is available, their existence on the roster should not be an obstacle.

[RedTeamGo!]

He was batting .190 with 2 hr in a 120 abs. I would say that is pretty underwhelming especially for people claiming he was hitting 30 to 40 hrs and if you didn’t agree you were an idiot and i hated my dog shout out to KY for that great prediction. With his chase rate it was hard to imagine him succeeding once pitchers figured that out. He has to improve like Elly if he will ever be any good.

Couple things though, CES was playing hurt to start the year and we must have different definitions of the word “continues”

[Rdirtypirates]

Couple things though, CES was playing hurt to start the year and we must have different definitions of the word “continues”

Using semantics about the word continues is a weak argument. Anyone who thinks he was good or ready for the big leagues is crazy. Yes, he continues to disappoint. If you aren’t playing that to me is disappointing. We both know he wasn’t hurt at the beginning of the year. He was hurt on April 24th while batting .209. None of this is remotely true. I mean I know you hyped him up but come on he had approximately 20abs after getting hurt.

[Benihana]

1. My base IF would be Steer, McLain, EDLC and as of now Marte, but if he keeps doing what he's doing, probably Candy.
2. India would be the primary DH. He'd play 2B when EDLC or McLain sit.
3. Assuming Marte sticks at 3B, Candy would be the super sub who gets 500 PAs. Plays 3B when Marte sits, Is DH when India sits or is playing 2B. He'd play 1b when Steer sits or plays OF.
4. CES would compete with Candy for the super-sub role. If Candy wins 3B, he'd compete with Marte for that job, but it's likely if Candy is named the 3B, Marte goes back to AAA.
5. France and Espinal would be non-tendered because they are too expensive. Espinal's hot streak means maybe they can trade him and get a token prospect who won't really matter much. They may keep him into Spring Training to make sure McLain is good to go.
6. The roles for Steer, Candy, India, CES and Marte would all be subject to change if the Reds acquire a clean-up hitter who plays one of the 1B/3B/DH positions. If one is available, their existence on the roster should not be an obstacle.

Agree with this. I’ve always been skeptical of CES, even when many on here were ready to crown him as the next Votto. IF he can prove he deserves a starting spot next year I’d be fine moving Steer back to LF. But otherwise I agree with your base infield assumptions here. Marte has surprised and disappointed me this year, I’m hopeful that it’s just a lost year and he regains form and promise in the offseason/Spring Training.

Just curious mth who is your base OF with the above assumptions?

[mth123]

Agree with this. I’ve always been skeptical of CES, even when many on here were ready to crown him as the next Votto. IF he can prove he deserves a starting spot next year I’d be fine moving Steer back to LF. But otherwise I agree with your base infield assumptions here. Marte has surprised and disappointed me this year, I’m hopeful that it’s just a lost year and he regains form and promise in the offseason/Spring Training.

Just curious mth who is your base OF with the above assumptions?

Hopefully a new clean-up hitter in one corner and a new #5 hitter in the other corner with Friedl in CF. If they can only acquire one OF, then I'd play Fraley in the other corner against RHP and use Steer out their against LHP and use Candy at 1B.

The guys with huge K/BB ratios - Benson (4.09 to 1), CES (8.75 to 1), Hinds (12 to 1, 4.19 in AAA), Wiemer (4.5 to 1, 10.75 to 1 in AAA) - would all have to somehow improve significantly or be phased out of the plan. Anybody with a K/BB ratio above 3 is a suspect. EDLC has got his K/BB ratio down below 3 this year and IMO it is the reason we've seen him take a step forward. Candy's huge step backward also shows up there with a K/BB ratio of 3.85 to 1 but I think the Reds are stuck with his contract.

Marte is sitting at 12 to 1 this year and was 3.125 to 1 last year. Last year in AA and AAA he was 1.64 to 1 which, along with his age, is why I still have more hope for him than the others.

[Mitri]

You guys can wish and pray that CES earns his job back but I can guarantee you he is already penciled into next years lineup.

Same with Marte at 3B.

[LeatherPants]

You guys can wish and pray that CES earns his job back but I can guarantee you he is already penciled into next years lineup.

Same with Marte at 3B.

I agree, but it means that the Reds aren't trying to win in 2025, they're just hoping to. Which seems to be their strategy moving forward.

[LiferJim]

You guys can wish and pray that CES earns his job back but I can guarantee you he is already penciled into next years lineup.

Same with Marte at 3B.

Sadly you’re probably right. I do give CES a little more leeway, because he was probably playing hurt, though that shouldn’t have affected his pitch recognition. Hopefully he is currently spending a lot of time watching film and analyzing this years bad approach.

As for Marte, he is now roughly at 160 at bats counting his 49 at bats in Louisville and showing no signs of improvement. I like the kid, but going into next season with him penciled in at third, may be setting us up for yet another disappointing season.


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[UPRedsFan]

If everyone is healthy in the IF, there is EDLC, McLain, India, CES, Marte, Steer, Candelario, Espinal, France. Looks like you and the Reds are in perfect alignment

Pop quiz. Without looking, who from that group of infielders has been the Reds' best hitter over the last 30 days? And it's not even close.