Welcome Ty France to Cincinnati

[mth123]

Your rightful proposal that the REDS are going to chase that sunk cost of Candelario, making an addition of France one that doesn't make sense added to Candelario is probably the correct assumption.

Candelario was a 120 OPS+ guy in 2023 when France was dropping off the planet. There is reason to believe Candelario could bounce back just like everyone seems to think France will. He's been banged up much of the year, he was, unwisely IMO, brought in as the highest paid guy on the team to be an impact acquisition and was pressing to justify it. Since they have to pay him anyway, I guess if was going to gamble on a comeback, I'd gamble on the one I've already paid for.

If they could dump Candelario, I'd be in favor and taking what's behind door #3 and not bet on either guy making a comeback, but I think that's a far-fetched option.

[Kc61]

France can play 1B or DH.

Candelario can play 3B-- and was slated to play there until CES was injured, fwiw.

India may not be at DH-- last season, until McLain was hurt, he was slated to play all over the field, including OF.

France is hitting like a cleanup hitter currently and did two years ago too.

France may be a spare part-- and he may not.

The Reds have plenty of cash to spend on France, spare part or not.

His bat is not on a four-year decline, and his WAR is only lower because he played much less at 2B and 3B (and much more at the less-demanding position, 1B) in 2022 than 2021. Too, this year, he's better than he was last season offensively.

To paraphrase your argument in the India/ Steer discussion, the Reds have very few guys who are OPS+ing 138+, as France is for them. Why get rid of that bat?

You can’t have a good baseball team constructed with so many first basemen/DHs. I don’t want Candy at third, he isn’t good there. Reds have to find a solution that allows them a well rounded team with hitting and defense.

I have nothing against France but I have trouble seeing the fit. I’d rather the Reds spend the money to fix the outfield.

[CaiGuy]

Lots of recency bias and personal preference here. I am not a huge fan of Candelario's game, but France is even more limited defensively and even further removed from having an above average season (going back to 2023 Candelario is the superior hitter and defender).

Honestly Candelario is likely the surer choice, and that's before remembering the fact that his contract is garenteed and France's isn't.

The money that would go to France would be better spent on someone who can hit and play the OF.

[Kingspoint]

Lots of recency bias and personal preference here. I am not a huge fan of Candelario's game, but France is even more limited defensively and even further removed from having an above average season (going back to 2023 Candelario is the superior hitter and defender).

Honestly Candelario is likely the surer choice, and that's before remembering the fact that his contract is garenteed and France's isn't.

The money that would go to France would be better spent on someone who can hit and play the OF.

France is not more limited Defensively.

Attachment 21864

[Kingspoint]

Candelario:

Attachment 21865

[Kingspoint]

France is a Plus Defender at 1B.

Candelario shouldn't be playing Defense anywhere on a baseball field. REDS need to be smart and pay out whatever is necessary to get rid of this terrible baseball player.

I can't in any way, shape or form make a positive case for Candelario to be on any major league team next season, yet alone the REDS.

Attachment 21866

[Kingspoint]

And all of these Defensive Metrics are about as far off from measuring the true value of someone's Defensive play as the wide chasm that makes up the Grand Canyon.

For every measurable Defensive stat that can be applied to a player, there are half a dozen mental errors that aren't accounted for. They effect the outcome of games by those who make the errors and by those who don't make these errors. There are also positive decisions that a good defensive player makes that also aren't measurable by any stat. There are half a dozen of these for every one that is measurable.

Over the course of a season, the difference in runs scored (part of this is the confidence and non-confidence each gives to a pitcher on the mound) is about 50 runs between Candelario and Espinal if each played every day. That's less than a run every 3 games, and it may be more than 50. It's not measurable. Defensive Stats are a joke. They are pretty meaningless. The eye-test is all that matters and Candelario has no idea what he's doing Defensively on the field. When he's at 1B, it's like watching an 8-year-old play his first game ever in baseball.

[herbdizzle]

I think its a decent bet both Candelario and France can be solod contributors next year but it depends on whether they adequately address RF. One possibility could be adding a guy like Kepler

1B - France
2B - McLain
SS - Elly
3B - India
DH - Candy
LF - Steer
CF - Friedl
RF - Kepler
C - Stephenson

Thats a lineup without a true thumper but could be positive WAR at each spot.

[OldFashionedRed]

I think its a decent bet both Candelario and France can be solod contributors next year but it depends on whether they adequately address RF. One possibility could be adding a guy like Kepler

1B - France
2B - McLain
SS - Elly
3B - India
DH - Candy
LF - Steer
CF - Friedl
RF - Kepler
C - Stephenson

Thats a lineup without a true thumper but could be positive WAR at each spot.

Seems whoever the Reds pick up will be some guy that is already on the downslope, or heading there, and looking for that last big payday. I would be head over heels if they just went out and got 2-3 really good hitters, and a great starter, and called it a day. Won't happen.

[Kc61]

If one looks at France’s numbers for the last couple of years, offensively, defensive metrics, they’d wonder what the fuss is all about. He’s had a nice late season stint with Reds, maybe they keep him, maybe not.

Not sure he is an answer to any of the big questions surrounding the ball club.

I certainly wouldn’t take a financial hit on Candy’s contract to accomodate him. Candy had a subpar year but he hit 20 homers and had injuries. CES is still one of Reds’ better prospects, bad start to the season but also injured.

If there’s a reasonable plan that keeps France, fine, no complaint here, but he’s not a difference maker and I wouldn’t tie the team in knots to keep him.

[Bourgeois Zee]

If there’s a reasonable plan that keeps France, fine, no complaint here, but he’s not a difference maker and I wouldn’t tie the team in knots to keep him.

This is, I suspect, where most of us are. Keep him? Cool. They'd then, I assume, deal others for parts they can use more effectively.

Deal him? Sure. Find something good to use more often.

The issue is that the Reds are positively loaded with players of that ilk. EDLC, McLain, Stephenson, and Friedl are really the only guys who need to be kept-- everyone else should be available. (This includes Spencer Steer, who many seem to give a pass for his season.)

I suspect France will come far cheaper than his proposed artbitration number and that others could be dealt for more. (And I suspect he'd be amenable to a deal in Cincinnati.)

[757690]

I suspect France will come far cheaper than his proposed artbitration number and that others could be dealt for more. (And I suspect he'd be amenable to a deal in Cincinnati.)

I am rather certain that if France was a free agent, he’d easily get his proposed arbitration number. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was offered a multi year deal in that range, something like what Brandon Drury got.

He’s showing what many suspected, that he needed to get out of Seattle and their pitcher’s park. In his stint with the Reds, he’s reverting back to the 2021-22 Ty France. Even if not, at his worst, he’s been a league average bat. That alone, even at 1B, is worth around $8M.

That’s why I want the Reds to keep him. His a valuable asset with an affordable contract. Worst case scenario, they can trade him for a C prospect.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I am rather certain that if France was a free agent, he’d easily get his proposed arbitration number.

Nah.

He's the middle class guy that gets squeezed out in order to save owners millions on payroll.

He'll get nontendered or sign a below-market two- or three-year deal with someone and provide solid production as either a 1B/DH or as a utility guy.

[Mitri]

Reds should and will non-tender France. I don't really see how he fits on next year's roster with CES, Candelario, Steer and India (and even Espinal and Stephenson) all options at the position he plays. They need to focus on good outfielders and a better backup catcher, not another first-baseman.

Eating Candelario's money (or finding a way to dump his contract) to bring back France is about the worst idea I've seen on this board in a while. Yes, Jeimer has been disappointing but he'll get a chance to reset on his Reds tenure next year since they're paying him either way.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Reds should and will non-tender France. I don't really see how he fits on next year's roster with CES, Candelario, Steer and India (and even Espinal and Stephenson) all options at the position he plays. They need to focus on good outfielders and a better backup catcher, not another first-baseman.

Eating Candelario's money (or finding a way to dump his contract) to bring back France is about the worst idea I've seen on this board in a while. Yes, Jeimer has been disappointing but he'll get a chance to reset on his Reds tenure next year since they're paying him either way.

France = Candelario = Steer = India

You deal a couple, mix and match a couple, and hope you get lucky, IMO.