Who is making the Reds in game decisions?

[mth123]

Who is to say? As Maddon states there is a place for analytics, but a manager with the know how to handle players, situations, etc. is needed. Nerds don't see any value in this, but most who have played at a high school level or above should understand.

I agree with this, but those guys will never be hired. If there is a Manager who has a vision or style that conflicts with what the organization wants to do, he'll never make it past the interview. The organization will need to revise its thinking first IMO before a Manager like that is brought in. This is why I think Krall needs to be the first to go. Then whoever replaces him should decide what to do about the Manager and Coaching staff.

Also, understand that major league baseball is not College or High School or even the minor leagues. A Manager's job in the big leagues isn't the same as a Manager at those other levels. Just the fact that the players are unionized means it all needs to be handled differently.

[LeatherPants]

I think Individual decisions are made by the Manager, but they are constrained by the organization's vision for players. For example, if the organization sees Benson as a long-term player who can provide offense platooning in the OF, I don't think Bell has the power to bench him against RHP. He can sit him for health reasons and decide whether to yank him or leave him in if the opponent brings in a lefty. This is the reason I don't think Managers matter. It's not that they don't make decisions, but given the constraints, any Manager would make most of the same decisions. Personally, I'm not a Bell fan, but I don't think firing him will make any difference, because the new guy will be a guy who shares the same vision as the organization and do all the same stuff.

It's less clear about the Bullpen. I don't know Johnson's exact title, but in theory he makes all the pitching decisions for the organization. I don't know if that only pertains to development or if it includes in game pitching changes. I'm sure he's consulted, and my guess is that Bell defers to him. There are also organizational constraints here as well. If the organization envisions Cruz as the fireman, he's getting the ball in those situations if he's available. I think Johnson decides who is available and the organizational constraints generally dictate who is used in what spot. This is another case where I think it's largely out of Bell's hands. I think Cruz should be optioned to AAA, but I don't think Bell has the power to do that. If he's stuck with him, he's going to have to use him.

I’ve been thinking about DJ’s status for awhile and that he probably outranks Bell as he has a front office position, probably makes more money too.

[RedsFanInMS]

I agree with this, but those guys will never be hired. If there is a Manager who has a vision or style that conflicts with what the organization wants to do, he'll never make it past the interview. The organization will need to revise its thinking first IMO before a Manager like that is brought in. This is why I think Krall needs to be the first to go. Then whoever replaces him should decide what to do about the Manager and Coaching staff.

Agree on Krall. I don't think that guy has a clue as how to run a successful organization.

[LeatherPants]

I agree with this, but those guys will never be hired. If there is a Manager who has a vision or style that conflicts with what the organization wants to do, he'll never make it past the interview. The organization will need to revise its thinking first IMO before a Manager like that is brought in. This is why I think Krall needs to be the first to go. Then whoever replaces him should decide what to do about the Manager and Coaching staff.

The proof of this is that Maddon doesn’t have a job anymore and AFAIK hasn’t interviewed anywhere since he was let go by the Angels.

You can probably count the guys who are big enough to make demands on the front offices on one hand at this point. Like, nobody is forcing Bruce Bochy to do anything he doesn’t want. He might be it really.


Edit: probably can add Craig Council, but he’s been working for very analytical organizations since he started, so he’s probably a good soldier.

[mth123]

The proof of this is that Maddon doesn’t have a job anymore and AFAIK hasn’t interviewed anywhere since he was let go by the Angels.

You can probably count the guys who are big enough to make demands on the front offices on one hand at this point. Like, nobody is forcing Bruce Bochy to do anything he doesn’t want. He might be it really.


Edit: probably can add Craig Council, but he’s been working for very analytical organizations since he started, so he’s probably a good soldier.

The Cubs adding Council certainly didn't make them any better or the Brewers any worse. More clues as to how unimportant a Manager is. Everyone on this board seemed to think that would be a real blow to the Brewers and that it made the Cubs an instant threat.

[wilbo71]

I'd really like to know everyone's opinion on what they think. I hear many on here say managers don't matter in today's game. Well, how are in game decisions made? By Krall? By the analytics department? A computer? Some secret Reds god of analytics? Bell and the coaches? A combination? A printed out paper before every game? What says the board?

Who’s making decisions for the Reds?

[LeatherPants]

Other than tradition why wouldn’t you want the front office running the team?

[goreds2]

[Tony Cloninger]

They shouldn’t be running the team on the field and how they try to win games 100 percent. You have to allow the manager some more say. To take it away and basically over correct from the days when the manager had all the power. That’s no better than the old traditional ways. But you can’t argue with statistics. You can’t argue with highly educated FO personnel when you’re a traditional old school player. And those guys are not around much anymore.

So the Reds Vision Quest from what I read is a happy clubhouse that feeds positive vibes and seems to have the patience of Jobe with a lot of players. I’ve already said this though. The Astros rebuild was worse when the losing was happening. No one trusts the payoff here will be the same. They don’t trust Krall and his FO to be a TB or CLE let alone what the Astros did. I can only hope that it does because it’s not going to be pretty if it doesn’t.

[RedsFanInMS]

Other than tradition why wouldn’t you want the front office running the team?

Why would you? Do they have a better insight on things than an actual manager and coaches? Again, most of these guys are nerds who've never swung a bat or hit a ball. Again, analytics has its place. I think it's waaaaaaaay overrated as far as how, who, and where to play guys. The pendulum swung way too quickly to this when it should've stopped in the middle.

[RedsFanInMS]

They shouldn’t be running the team on the field and how they try to win games 100 percent. You have to allow the manager some more say. To take it away and basically over correct from the days when the manager had all the power. That’s no better than the old traditional ways. But you can’t argue with statistics. You can’t argue with highly educated FO personnel when you’re a traditional old school player. And those guys are not around much anymore.

So the Reds Vision Quest from what I read is a happy clubhouse that feeds positive vibes and seems to have the patience of Jobe with a lot of players. I’ve already said this though. The Astros rebuild was worse when the losing was happening. No one trusts the payoff here will be the same. They don’t trust Krall and his FO to be a TB or CLE let alone what the Astros did. I can only hope that it does because it’s not going to be pretty if it doesn’t.

The difference in Krall and his staff vs the other teams you mentioned is that everyone of those front office staffs had experience as winners. The clown show running the Reds hasn't ever won squat. They've all been with this organization for 20 years. Yes, the Indians and Rays guys have both been with only those organizations, but they all had success there, then a rebuild, and more success. Of course, Luhnow of the Astros came from the Cardinals another hugely successful organization. The Reds need WINNERS running the show. People that have been winners. Instead, we have shifty eyes, yes man Krall.

[LeatherPants]

Why would you? Do they have a better insight on things than an actual manager and coaches? Again, most of these guys are nerds who've never swung a bat or hit a ball. Again, analytics has its place. I think it's waaaaaaaay overrated as far as how, who, and where to play guys. The pendulum swung way too quickly to this when it should've stopped in the middle.

“Nerds who have never swung a bat or hit a ball”?



I can’t even with this stuff. Next thing you’ll start with the “living in their mother’s basement”.

[RedsFanInMS]

“Nerds who have never swung a bat or hit a ball”?



I can’t even with this stuff. Next thing you’ll start with the “living in their mother’s basement”.

So, you think the Reds analytics staff were a bunch of ball players? No, they are statistical nerds. What's wrong with saying that? It is what it is and their information is useful, but is it the end all be all? You need some guys who've been there done that when the winning run is on 3rd with 2 outs making decisions also.

[Wonderful Monds]

Other than tradition why wouldn’t you want the front office running the team?

You just posted a link about recent World Series champ Dusty retiring due to front office meddling

I think they can have all the usage metrics in the world, but some of them (how much a guy has run in a game….?) will just never be able to replace a good manager’s intuition and feel for who’s on, who needs a day, who’s hot and who’s cold, who needs their buttons pushed in what way to get going etc.

He was pretty exceptionally good at this during the Reds last winning streak. Some things could’ve been nice to curtail with metrics (CF leadoff/SS second dude, closer always and only 9th inning 3 runs or less lead etc.)
But he pulled the strings pretty masterfully to get the Reds to best record in the NL in 2012 (I think? I’m too hungover to fact check this) when they lost Votto in the middle of him having a historic season.

[Roy Tucker]

I don’t think the Reds’ analytics team is calling down to the dugout to tell Bell what moves to make.

But I imagine there has been considerable analysis going on and it’s revewed extensively by Bell and the analytic team and the Reds brass. And that analysis and findings weighs very heavily when Bell considers what move to make next. And when he deviates from the prescribed moves and they blow up, I’m sure he is asked why he did what he did.