Marte Un-Appreciation Thread

[jimbroznan]

Reds are going to have to figure out the money. If not France then somebody else. The lack of depth hurts them every year. They may have to suspend the sticker shock for one off-season and go a little deeper into the pocketbook.

They are also going to have to factor in $60 million from Bally will be gone. I doubt they will net anything close to that if they go direct streaming.

[mth123]

Marte,IMO gives a "I don't give a darn attitude" and it shows in his play.

Exactly why he should be ticketed for AAA next year, at least to start. I still think he can be a good player, but he needs to grow-up. Let Espinal hold it down with great defense and pesky bottom of the order offense. When Marte figures it out, he can slide right in and Espinal can become a utility player.

[Tuff Nut]

If the Reds decide to keep Marte, I hope he gets work in RF during the off-season. Some posters that follow the minors closely say that CES is more than capable of playing 3B. I also think he needs to earn that spot, whether there or 1B, and if some time in AAA is needed, so be it. I do like Espinal as UTL that can still get his ABs. Like most, a power bat is of significant importance.

[HokieRed]

I think he's destined for the OF eventually, but he made a fine play on that foul line drive today.

[Slyder]

Thank you for starting this thread. This all but assures that Marte will finish the season on a hot streak

or turns into Paul O'Neill after being traded for very little.

[chicoruiz]

Depth at 3B is almost ridiculous. I mean, there’s:

Steer
Espinal
Rosario
Candelario
Encarnacion-Strand
De la Cruz
India (potentially)

Given that, there’s just no reason to have Marte around at this stage of his development…

[westofyou]

Depth at 3B is almost ridiculous. I mean, there’s:

Steer
Espinal
Rosario
Candelario
Encarnacion-Strand
De la Cruz
India (potentially)

Given that, there’s just no reason to have Marte around at this stage of his development…

Steer doesn't play 3rd anymore and if Candy was healthy he's who'd I like there the rest of the year

[Mitri]

I like Candy at 3B too. I’d give Marte reps in the OF and 3B but still look for a big bat. Depending on the move, Marte could become fungible, but I’m not looking to give him away.

Guessing one of India, Steer or Marte will be traded this offseason, with Espinal returning as the bargain veteran utility man.

[RiverRat13]

I like Candy at 3B too.

He was bad defensively there this year, but if the Reds want to make that contract have any kind of value, they need entertain trying him at 3B again next year.

[CaiGuy]

It's certainly not time to give up on Marte or shoot him into the sun or anything, but if the Reds plan to be good at all next season he needs to be pushed down the chart into AAA.

This is different to being setback by a freak injury...he made a conscious decision hurt his career and potentially the team (though it remains to be seen if he would have been any good anyways).

He's 22 so he has plenty of time to prove himself again, and as we all know spots open up all the time. Wanting to send him down doesn't equate to giving up on him at 22, but the team can't afford an extended tryout in the MLB-lineup. If he is good he will tear up AAA and be right back up.

I'd like to see at least one of Marte and CES pushed to AAA to start the year, if not both of them. But I would lean towards Marte as he is younger and CES might have been impacted by an injury.

Either way they'd still get plenty of chances and there is no reason to send eithere out of the organization.

[mth123]

It's certainly not time to give up on Marte or shoot him into the sun or anything, but if the Reds plan to be good at all next season he needs to be pushed down the chart into AAA.

This is different to being setback by a freak injury...he made a conscious decision hurt his career and potentially the team (though it remains to be seen if he would have been any good anyways).

He's 22 so he has plenty of time to prove himself again, and as we all know spots open up all the time. Wanting to send him down doesn't equate to giving up on him at 22, but the team can't afford an extended tryout in the MLB-lineup. If he is good he will tear up AAA and be right back up.

I'd like to see at least one of Marte and CES pushed to AAA to start the year, if not both of them. But I would lean towards Marte as he is younger and CES might have been impacted by an injury.

Either way they'd still get plenty of chances and there is no reason to send eithere out of the organization.

This exactly!

[Dave C]

So... I watched a lot of Marte in the minors last year... a lot of CES and Elly before they came up as well. I see no reason for CES to start in the minors with little chance of making the team. I don't think we've had a prospect in recent memory that hit like he did in the minors. Given a shot at the MLB level next year and if he doesn't improve you move on. Candy should be traded IMHO. He's essentially what people say about CES but for a whole lot more money.

Marte is a completely different player to me. He's lost (or had it taken away) a lot of athleticism. His lateral movement is much slower in the field and his bat seems much slower as well. I'm thinking, at least until he shows otherwise, that his prospect status was probably based, at least partially, on his use of PEDs. He showed nothing in his short AAA stay this year and hasn't shown anything at the MLB level either. He's had a month at the MLB level outperforming his best minor league numbers by 30%. I'd love the .315 Marte at 3rd but that may have been a combination of a September mirage and enhancements.

I'm sure the decisions are above Bell, but pushing him into the daily lineups has given us a hole in the lineup during the stretch that could have made a difference. Not saying it's on him... but he didn't help. It seems he should have stayed at AAA until he showed he was similar to last year. Instead, we've got a kid that's been given a chance that not many get and he's failed.

[mth123]

So... I watched a lot of Marte in the minors last year... a lot of CES and Elly before they came up as well. I see no reason for CES to start in the minors with little chance of making the team. I don't think we've had a prospect in recent memory that hit like he did in the minors. Given a shot at the MLB level next year and if he doesn't improve you move on. Candy should be traded IMHO. He's essentially what people say about CES but for a whole lot more money.

Marte is a completely different player to me. He's lost (or had it taken away) a lot of athleticism. His lateral movement is much slower in the field and his bat seems much slower as well. I'm thinking, at least until he shows otherwise, that his prospect status was probably based, at least partially, on his use of PEDs. He showed nothing in his short AAA stay this year and hasn't shown anything at the MLB level either. He's had a month at the MLB level outperforming his best minor league numbers by 30%. I'd love the .315 Marte at 3rd but that may have been a combination of a September mirage and enhancements.

I'm sure the decisions are above Bell, but pushing him into the daily lineups has given us a hole in the lineup during the stretch that could have made a difference. Not saying it's on him... but he didn't help. It seems he should have stayed at AAA until he showed he was similar to last year. Instead, we've got a kid that's been given a chance that not many get and he's failed.

But the question isn't whether CES can hit in the minors. The question is whether he can hit in the big-leagues and he showed pretty clearly that big league pitchers have him baffled. He has no idea when to swing and when to take, so he usually swings. He hit well in AAA, he came up and hit well to start, the league adjusted and he was completely overmatched. His scouting reports basically showed him with a well below average hit tool (35 on the 20 to 80 scale) and that's exactly what we saw this year. None of that has anything to do with his old injury. It was something he didn't know he had, it wasn't bothering him and I don't see how it affected him at the plate. It's certainly not the reason he was swinging at pitches over his head and in the opposite batters box.

He needs to go down and play. I don't see a spot for him in the big-league line-up unless the Reds completely pass on any acquisitions. He's better off playing every day, re-establishing himself and being ready when a spot opens.

[LiferJim]

But the question isn't whether CES can hit in the minors. The question is whether he can hit in the big-leagues and he showed pretty clearly that big league pitchers have him baffled. He has no idea when to swing and when to take, so he usually swings. He hit well in AAA, he came up and hit well to start, the league adjusted and he was completely overmatched. His scouting reports basically showed him with a well below average hit tool (35 on the 20 to 80 scale) and that's exactly what we saw this year. None of that has anything to do with his old injury. It was something he didn't know he had, it wasn't bothering him and I don't see how it affected him at the plate. It's certainly not the reason he was swinging at pitches over his head and in the opposite batters box.

He needs to go down and play. I don't see a spot for him in the big-league line-up unless the Reds completely pass on any acquisitions. He's better off playing every day, re-establishing himself and being ready when a spot opens.

I don’t know. He did struggle in 116 at bats this year, but in 222 at bats in 2023, he hit the ball pretty well. Yes the league makes adjustments, but in this day and age, with scouts and cameras everywhere, does it really take the league 222 at bats to figure out a players strengths and weaknesses? I think his problem this year was more so his approach and I’m just hopeful he returns to his 2023 numbers/approach. I think he started off slow, in a year many including myself were expecting big things and started pressing. Heck, with the lofty expectations, he may have been pressing from day one. Another reason I think it’s imperative, the Reds get a good middle of the lineup hitter, to take some of the pressure off our younger players.


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[mth123]

I don’t know. He did struggle in 116 at bats this year, but in 222 at bats in 2023, he hit the ball pretty well. Yes the league makes adjustments, but in this day and age, with scouts and cameras everywhere, does it really take the league 222 at bats to figure out a players strengths and weaknesses? I think his problem this year was more so his approach and I’m just hopeful he returns to his 2023 numbers/approach. I think he started off slow, in a year many including myself were expecting big things and started pressing. Heck, with the lofty expectations, he may have been pressing from day one. Another reason I think it’s imperative, the Reds get a good middle of the lineup hitter, to take some of the pressure off our younger players.


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It could be pressing causing some of it. I think that's more likely than the injury having anything to do with it. Seems like all the more reason to start in AAA and see how he does. If he does well, bring him up with a head of steam and a bunch of confidence before throwing him into the deep end.