Agreed. Definitely that's the right pond to go fishing in. Radke's liable to cost the most out of the group so he's the least likely to go to a smaller market team (unless of course the Twins keep him).Originally Posted by guernsey
Agreed. Definitely that's the right pond to go fishing in. Radke's liable to cost the most out of the group so he's the least likely to go to a smaller market team (unless of course the Twins keep him).Originally Posted by guernsey
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
Of course his pricetag went up after '04, just as Dunn knew it would. He had absolutely no reason to sign a LTC following his worst professional season ('03). He had hit 50 HRs in a season before, and he knew he was good enough to do it again. Going from Dunn saying he would like to sign a long term deal to Dunn signing a long term deal that would cost him millions is a leap in logic that's far too long to be reasonable.
"People that frequent Internet forums resemble the cast of One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest!" - C. J. Cregg, The West Wing
The Indians, Rangers, A's and Blue Jays all have managed to sign very good young players to long-term contracts. Yet somehow the Reds can't?Originally Posted by guernsey
That reeks of excusifying to me.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
Again, did Dustin hold his own in AAA? yep. Was he a good pitcher in AAA. Nope. But that is why he will be going back to prove just that. All I said was that his experience in AAA will help him understand what he needs to tackle to be a good pitcher this season in AAA ball, a cup of coffee minor league style. Enough of the sob stories how the awfull Reds organization never gave poor little Dustin the chance to succeed. To me he is a success with the talent he has.Originally Posted by M2
He is 30, making it somewhat risky. He had been injury free until the end of this seasonOriginally Posted by M2
True but I think the Reds will be hesitant to invest long term with that money to Jr sitting out there in 2007 and 2008. It makes them unlikely to sign any FA who they will owe money to in those years.Originally Posted by M2
The only way a small market team can successfully use free agency is to plug a hole. Even if the Reds were to sign a free agent starter it will take a LOT more than to make them competetive in 2005. They would still need big years from a number of the young pitchers.
For the Reds to have any asuurance of competing in 2005 they would need to sign 4-5 free agent pitchers for the rotation and the pen.
The Griffey contract is going down as one of the worst disasters in Reds history. 12.5 million of dead payroll :dflynn:
You could have a 60 million dollar payroll and it would only really be 47.5. A 70 million dollar payroll and it would only be 57.5.
Bowden should be real proud of himself.
Dumb handling is dumb handling. They haven't set up Moseley for success and they're likely to reap the harvest of what they've sown.Originally Posted by Aronchis
There's no reason why Moseley couldn't be as good as Ryan Madson, the current poster boy for sane handling and gradual development. There's another way to do it and that other way can work. What the Reds have been doing, that doesn't work.
DanO's fault is that he hasn't taken appropriate steps to start addressing the problem. I don't blame him for what he inherited. Though if you recognize that the 2004 staff was organized on a San Andreas Fault, then I will suggest carbon copying the model in 2005 is pretty boneheaded.Originally Posted by Aronchis
Last edited by M2; 10-19-2004 at 11:09 AM.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
Interestingly enough, the Griffey contract- at the time- was a real value. The Larkin deal (the one that Bowden didn't want), was a killer because it assumed that a 37-year old Shortstop would be in the upper echelon of MLB players at his position.The Griffey contract is going down as one of the worst disasters in Reds history. 12.5 million of dead payroll
You could have a 60 million dollar payroll and it would only really be 47.5. A 70 million dollar payroll and it would only be 57.5.
Bowden should be real proud of himself.
Small market teams can deal with 10+ million dollar mistakes (see: Dye, Jermaine)- if they can draft and develop pitching internally. But they can't a 10+ million dollar mistake AND a 9 million dollar mistake.
Bowden's legacy is his inability to draft and develop pitching- not the Griffey contract.
And now we have Dan O'Brien. Considering his acquisitions and draft strategy, is there a singular reason that we perceive he's going to revitalize the Reds' organization during his tenure?
He had an entire offseason to bring in talent- both high and low priced talent. He gave us Cory Lidle (who was horrible), Todd Jones (who was good), and an additional bunch of crud. He failed to convert a career below-average MLB pitcher to anything (Wilson) at the trade deadline. He presided over one of the worst pitching staffs in Reds history- even though he had enough time to incorporate dramatic influences. And, according the the Reds, O'Brien had the PayFlex to do it after the salary purge of 2003.
As M2 aptly stated, I don't blame O'Brien for the performance of what he inherited. What I blame him for is an inability to make the Reds better via his mechanizations. Right now, you blame Bowden for his perceived failures. But the fact is that Dan O'Brien is living off Bowden's successes while doing nothing to put his positive stamp on the organization.
And frankly, considering that he inherited 9M in unspent PayFlex from the cessation of the 2001 Larkin deal, that's saying a lot.
"The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer
"The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
--Ted Williams
I've never cricitized Bowden for the Griffey contract. At the time the Reds signed Junior he was a 30 year old Gold Glove centerfielder who had hit 49, 56, 56 and 48 HRs in his four most recent seasons. Except for the 1995 season he had been virtually injury free. Nobody expected his body to collapse. I would have made the trade too.Originally Posted by Aronchis
The Reds front office, be it Bowden, Lindner, Allen or O'Brien, have had many failures and stupid moves, including signing the soon to be 37 year old Barry Larkin to a three year, $27,000,000 contract in 2000 and the inability and/or refusal to sign or develop any starting pitching, but the Griffey acquisition was a bad move only with 20-20 hindsight.
"Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."
You should. Giving Griffey a 9 year contract was really stupid, even for Bowden. Not only would Griffey be really old at the end of his contract, but signs of physical decline were there in 1999. At best Bowden should have submitted that by Griffey's mid-30's, he may have been finished.Originally Posted by RedsBaron
The contract has hurt the Reds because since 2001 because they have alot of dead payroll to deal with every year without the returned production of a "superstar" to pay it off. A lesser contract would have the light at the end of the tunnel at least near.
the question I have would be: are you a Reds fan because you're defeatist, or are you defeatist because you're a Reds fan?Originally Posted by guernsey
and why do I have to be a Reds fan?
Another thing to consider about Clement though.
Don't you think that if the Reds signed Clement, it would bring a barrage of
ticket sales, similiar to Vaughn?
Reds' fans aren't stupid. They know Clement will make a big difference in the W-L.
It probably won't be enough to make the Reds contend in 2005, but it brings them closer.
Gives them some legitimacy. And M2 is right, it is financially feasible.
Now I disagree with trading Jimmeniz unless we get a real good return (and I doubt he
would fetch such a return), BUT if that gives us money to make a Clement deal work, sign
me up.
This team made a ton of money this year. They have the means to sign Clement to a 3-4 year
deal if they wanted to. It seems like the easiest (and relatively cost efficent way) to
finally get the #1 pitcher we need.
And if the Reds could somehow get a solid #2/legit #3 type and a couple bullpen arms, they
at least have a chance to be in the 'if all stars align, we'll contend' scenerio.
As the team stands now, there's a zero chance of contending next year.
[Phil ] Castellini celebrated the team's farm system and noted the team had promising prospects who would one day be great Reds -- and then joke then they'd be ex-Reds, saying "of course we're going to lose them". #SellTheTeamBob
Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!
I'd say no because offense sells here, not pitching. Attendance in 1999 wasn' that great until September. The Vaughn trade may have temporarily spiked ticket sales but it was more likely people who would have bought tickets eventually.Originally Posted by REDREAD
Heck, when the Reds were doing well this past season, the fans were coming out in droves.Originally Posted by Chip R
Regarding ticket sales in 1999... my take (right or wrong) is that fans were still extremely disgruntled about the strike. Had that 1999 team been playing just as sucessfully in 2004, I think you'd have seen a huge spike in attendance much earlier in the season.
"Enjoy this Reds fans, you are watching a legend grow up before your very eyes" ... DoogMinAmo on Adam Dunn
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