What do you people want??

[Puffy]

What do you people want??



Oh, and world peace.

[Redsfaithful]

For instance, is Joe Randa a better 3B option than Ryan Freel?

I still don't think these are all the right questions.

Is Ryan Freel a better bench option than whoever would have taken the last spot previously?

Is Ortiz better than Josh Hancock, who would have been our fifth starter with no signings?

I think the answer to both of those questions is yes. Therefore, I think the team is better than it was a week ago.

Seems to me that for the Reds to do better in 2005, players already with the team will have to step up. The new acquisitions don't strike me as having a lot of impact.

I agree. But I think the impact they do have will be positive.

[Boss-Hog]

Yes, the team is "improved", I suppose - as I said, marginally. However, most of us are not happy with improvement that will, at best, lead to a few extra games gained in the standings - not when there was (and still is) a need for major improvements.

[M2]

I still don't think these are all the right questions.

Is Ryan Freel a better bench option than whoever would have taken the last spot previously?

Is Ortiz better than Josh Hancock, who would have been our fifth starter with no signings?

I think the answer to both of those questions is yes. Therefore, I think the team is better than it was a week ago.

Name for me a team that's been reliant on the last guy on the bench. Doesn't work that way. Last guy on the bench is a fungible item. What wins you games is the quality you get from the guys who play the bulk of the time.

And the contention of the rf30's post was that the Reds had improved the team over last season. Lidle was the guy in the shoes Ortiz has filled. As for upgrading Hancock, IMO the Reds could go scrapheaping in a few weeks and get a pitcher every bit as good as Ortiz (in whom I have no faith) for cents on the dollar.

Using your definition, every team improves in the offseason because every move is an addition to the current mix.

[redsfanmia]

The signings/trades have made this team much better than last year. Randa is a quality major league third baseman unlike Freel who cant field the position. Freel is a bench player and a pretty good bench player but thats his best role.
The bullpen atleast has major league pitchers now unlike Padilla and Norton, i think the bullpen is much improved. Plus Acevado was lights out in the bullpen last year so i think he could be a very good set up man.
Ortiz is an upgrade over Lidle and having Hudson for the entire year is going to be a plus, he looked pretty good last year. Claussen had a few good starts and he could be a good solid 3 starter.
People want to trade Kearns or Pena, I think we should maybe deal Casey, his value is high and lets face it last year is probably as good as he gets so lets deal him and put either Griffey or Dunn at first!

[RosieRed]

Why compare Weathers to Van Poppel? He's replacing Todd Jones. Will he do better than Jones did last year? I wouldn't bet on that.

Weber may or may not be healthy. He'd be replacing Riedling if he is, but until we know he's ready to pitch and capable of pitching well again, it's empty speculation as to whether this helps the team.

Why would anyone be compared to Juan Padilla? The Reds will call up some journeyman next September to pitch a dozen innings, probably not well, and that's who's replacing Padilla.

Ortiz replaces Lidle, who was a bust, and doesn't profile as being any better.

Mercker does replace Norton, so the Reds have identifiably improved their primary LH reliever (assuming Mercker doesn't go all gopherball like he did a few years ago). So the Reds have improved roughly 55 IP worth of a 1,450 IP season.

I don't disagree with you M2, but I think it's worthy of looking at the bullpen as a whole at this point. Obviously, signing Weathers, Weber and Mercker means Van Poppel and Norton won't be in the bullpen, regardless of which pitcher they specifically replaced.

The bullpen around the start of the season last year was who?
Danny Graves
Todd Jones
Phil Norton
Brian Reith
John Reidling
Todd Van Poppel
Ryan Wagner

And now we have:
Danny Graves
Ryan Wagner
Kent Mercker
David Weathers
Ben Weber
TBA
TBA

Which sounds better than what we started with last year. Though I'm not going to argue it's a great staff.

[redsfan30]

Lots of false choices being offered here.

For instance, is Joe Randa a better 3B option than Ryan Freel? Are the extra outs Randa gets with the glove worth the extra outs he makes at the plate? No reason to compare him to Brandon Larson.

Why compare Weathers to Van Poppel? He's replacing Todd Jones. Will he do better than Jones did last year? I wouldn't bet on that.

Weber may or may not be healthy. He'd be replacing Riedling if he is, but until we know he's ready to pitch and capable of pitching well again, it's empty speculation as to whether this helps the team.

Why would anyone be compared to Juan Padilla? The Reds will call up some journeyman next September to pitch a dozen innings, probably not well, and that's who's replacing Padilla.


Ortiz replaces Lidle, who was a bust, and doesn't profile as being any better.

Mercker does replace Norton, so the Reds have identifiably improved their primary LH reliever (assuming Mercker doesn't go all gopherball like he did a few years ago). So the Reds have improved roughly 55 IP worth of a 1,450 IP season.

Seems to me that for the Reds to do better in 2005, players already with the team will have to step up. The new acquisitions don't strike me as having a lot of impact.

There will be injuries in the outfield. Ryan Freel can play five different positions servicably. Are you going to tie him down to one position all year? No. Randa had better BA/HR/RBI totals last year in an injury plagued year. I know his other numbers are alittle lower...but let's let Ryan Freel play an entire Major League career before making these judgements. I don't think 1 1/2 years is a good sample size compared to 10 years.

I would argue that if healthy, Weber will replace Jones. Mercker will be replacing Norton. The one out of all those guys that can go four or five innings if need be out of the pen is Weathers. Not saying that he will only be used in that role. But he is the most equipped for it. And yes, I think Weathers will be good in that role.

If healthy, Weber will be the best pitcher in the bullpen. Mark it down. If he's not totally healthy, that's another story. But if he's not, surely the Reds would not have given him a deal basically promising him a spot on the 25 man roster.

Padilla personifies some of the crap they ran out there last year. It seems at some point all year, they had some journeyman in the bullpen who did nothing but smell. That's why I compare to Juan Padilla.

Are these moves going to put the Reds at the top of the division, no. But it is a step in the right direction.

[M2]

Rosie, iirc, folks were pretty high on the Reds bullpen heading into last season. There was a widespread love affair with Wagner (me included). Lots of folks believed Riedling was closer material. Reitsma was in the mix until the very end of ST and then Jones stepped in. You also didn't have to search too hard for folks who'd toss a bouquet at Van Poppel or Norton. And Danny Graves was a "proven closer."

I remember folks catching flak for suggesting the Reds bullpen was headed for a sharp downward turn. IMO, this group still doesn't have the makings of a good pen. Maybe it will be better than last year's group (that's a real low bar to clear), but it's not anything near the terminator units that were common in the JimBo regime.

[wheels]

I just hope that these signings won't cause a guy with real stuff and potential like Todd Coffey to have to hang around in the minors.

Let's shake these boys down and see what they've got.

That's what's really exciting to me.

I wanna hear that mitt pop and soon after batters walking away shaking their collective heads.

I miss that.

I think Wagner turned a bit of corner near the end of last season, and I hope he's not an afterthought.

I just don't agree with backloading a staff with vets if you've got young turks with something to prove.

[RosieRed]

Rosie, iirc, folks were pretty high on the Reds bullpen heading into last season. There was a widespread love affair with Wagner (me included). Lots of folks believed Riedling was closer material. Reitsma was in the mix until the very end of ST and then Jones stepped in. You also didn't have to search too hard for folks who'd toss a bouquet at Van Poppel or Norton. And Danny Graves was a "proven closer."

I remember folks catching flak for suggesting the Reds bullpen was headed for a sharp downward turn. IMO, this group still doesn't have the makings of a good pen. Maybe it will be better than last year's group (that's a real low bar to clear), but it's not anything near the terminator units that were common in the JimBo regime.

I agree, with all that. Especially the low bar to clear part, and bullpens of the past being much better than what we have today.

But come Opening Day this year, I'll probably even be saying that this current bupllen will be a good one, everyone will have a great year, etc. Because when it comes time to play ball, I want to believe the Reds can win, so I just choose to think it's possible.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think it's fine for a fan to think, at the beginning of the year, that Riedling is closer material, Wagner will be great, etc. Then you go through the year, and realize "hmm, not so great as I thought." So in the offseason, when the FO gets some new players who (on paper at least) look better than some of the players we had, the whole process starts all over again. I'm at least going to allow for the possibility that the bullpen could be markedly improved by the new additions.

(Yes, okay, I realize I'm trying to convince myself now. )

[redsfan30]

I wanna hear that mitt pop and soon after batters walking away shaking their collective heads.

I miss that.

Amen, brother. There's alot of disagreement in this thread, but I think that is something we could all agree on.

[pedro]

what about a Monkey Butler? would that be too much to ask?

[tom browning]

I want a starting pitcher with an ERA below 4.00.


If Ortiz wins 15 and has an ERA below 4.00 , THEN I'll call him a good pitcher. Pardon me if I dont pass out the punch and cookies in the mean time.

[Redsfaithful]

Name for me a team that's been reliant on the last guy on the bench.

The Reds, both of the past two seasons, due to injury.

[Caveman Techie]

If Ortiz wins 15 and has an ERA below 4.00 , THEN I'll call him a good pitcher. Pardon me if I dont pass out the punch and cookies in the mean time.

2002 Ortiz had 15 wins 9 loses with an ERA of 3.71. So we'll be waiting for your punch and cookies or does it only count now that he's in a Reds uniform?