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Thread: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

  1. #1216
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    Yeah. Imagine that. Terry Ryan was forced to start taking chances and comes out ahead while Wayne Krivsky sits in his comfort zone and ends up with a team that's won consecutive games once in the past 30 days.
    Standing ovation.


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  3. #1217
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    They made Ponson into a decent pitcher and he was crap the last few years.


    Ponson...62.2 IP, 78 H, 39 ER, 25 BB, 29 K, 5.60 ERA, 1.64 WHIP, .318 BAA

    I know we've suffered some through some pretty bad pitchers here over the past few years, but I wouldn't describe Ponson as "decent".

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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    Not sure what you mean by "What?".

    Jerry Narron and Wayne Krivsky are responsible for the current constitution of the rotation and bullpen.

    Don't particularly care how much time they've had to get things in order. But I do care about what they've done with the time they've had.
    I think you know what I meant. To be unhappy with the bullpen situation is universal. To tie that to the recent contract extensions would not be much different than pointing out the extensions when Narron's strategy failed on the squeeze play. Yes, Krivsky has yet to construct a viable bullpen and Narron does not pick the reliever I would in certain situations. No, I do not think that raises red flags that either does not know what he's doing and that contract extensions are totally unwarranted on that basis.

    There are certainly different things that could be done with the bullpen, but I do care about the time factor and that it seems every opponent except the White Sox and Mets have the same byline--"like the Reds, they're having their own bullpen troubles." Derrick Turnbow was selected to the All-Star Game as one of the top relievers. When they flashed his numbers Monday, he had a 4.04 ERA and he has showed that is not inflated by a few bad outings in this series and it is pushing 5 by now (of course, my mouth dropped when I heard he was chosen, anyhow).

    I also suspect if the young guys were brought up here, we would be looking at Mike Burns-type efforts at this point. As much as I'd like to see a Brad Salmon get a chance and send David Weathers packing, I have a sinking feeling that if it was a no-brainer that he could get major league hitters out, he would be up here. Same with David Shafer or any of the other young guys who are getting minor league hitters out. I would imagine with the state of bullpens across the league, if we were holding some young guys back or undervaluing some youngsters, some other teams would be plucking them in minor trades.

    In other words, unrealistic expectations and an unreasonable evaluation standard seem to trigger your disdain.
    Last edited by traderumor; 07-06-2006 at 09:58 AM.
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  5. #1219
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    I think you know what I meant. To be unhappy with the bullpen situation is universal. To tie that to the recent contract extensions would not be much different than pointing out the extensions when Narron's strategy failed on the squeeze play. Yes, Krivsky has yet to construct a viable bullpen and Narron does not pick the reliever I would in certain situations. No, I do not think that raises red flags that either does not know what he's doing and that contract extensions are totally unwarranted on that basis.
    Ah, so Krivsky hasn't demonstrated he's yet capable of finding help and Narron has issues with both construction and usage. But no red flags. Right.

    There are certainly different things that could be done with the bullpen, but I do care about the time factor and that it seems every opponent except the White Sox and Mets have the same byline--"like the Reds, they're having their own bullpen troubles." Derrick Turnbow was selected to the All-Star Game as one of the top relievers. When they flashed his numbers Monday, he had a 4.04 ERA and he has showed that is not inflated by a few bad outings in this series and it is pushing 5 by now (of course, my mouth dropped when I heard he was chosen, anyhow).
    Spring Training wasn't yesterday. We're now over halfway through a season in which the Reds entered with a bullpen that looked to be bad, nothing has been done to make it any better, and the issues have been compounded by Narron's inability to use the right options at the right time.

    I also suspect if the young guys were brought up here, we would be looking at Mike Burns-type efforts at this point. As much as I'd like to see a Brad Salmon get a chance and send David Weathers packing, I have a sinking feeling that if it was a no-brainer that he could get major league hitters out, he would be up here. Same with David Shafer or any of the other young guys who are getting minor league hitters out. I would imagine with the state of bullpens across the league, if we were holding some young guys back or undervaluing some youngsters, some other teams would be plucking them in minor trades.
    In Management You Trust. Sorry, not me. They have to earn it. And I've yet to figure out how calling up a currently successful minor league who isn't guaranteed to get MLB hitters out is a worse option than bringing in chaff like Joe Mays and Esteban Yan- who've already demonstrated they can't get MLB hitters out. If the tradeoff is a coin-flip proposition versus a near-100% chance of suckage, I'll take the coin flip every single time.

    In other words, unrealistic expectations and an unreasonable evaluation standard seem to trigger your disdain.
    No. Doing nothing to correct a glaring problem triggers my distain. My expectations and standards are perfectly reasonable: Do something positive to help fix what's broken. And you'll have to pardon me for not playing the excuse game when there's nothing stopping the Reds from taking action.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

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  6. #1220
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    No. Doing nothing to correct a glaring problem triggers my distain. My expectations and standards are perfectly reasonable: Do something positive to help fix what's broken. And you'll have to pardon me for not playing the excuse game when there's nothing stopping the Reds from taking action.
    On the other hand, there are maybe 4 pitchers in the entire staff that can retire batters on a somewhat-consistent basis (Arroyo, Harang, Ramirez and Coffey). The number of moves that would be required to fix the mess makes it cost-prohibitive to do much of anything about it.

    If this team was a starter away or a set-up man away, maybe I'd be upset -- but this team is a starter, a set up man, and 2 middle relievers away from being competitive on a nightly basis. How much does that cost to get? Probably more than the prospect-starved Reds can afford to give up.

    There are two schools of thought at work here: School 1 says that you only stay healthy and get off to a good start every so often, and you've got to pull out all the stops to win right now when you have the chance. School 2 says that you should never mortgage tomorrrow just because you're riding a hot streak today. I fall firmly into school 2.

    The one point I do agree with you about is dipping down to the minors. As bad as Weathers, Mercker, and Yan have been this year, there is no reason why Calvin Medlock or Jon Coutlangas haven't been at least given a chance to hold a spot down in middle relief.
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
    On the other hand, there are maybe 4 pitchers in the entire staff that can retire batters on a somewhat-consistent basis (Arroyo, Harang, Ramirez and Coffey). The number of moves that would be required to fix the mess makes it cost-prohibitive to do much of anything about it.

    If this team was a starter away or a set-up man away, maybe I'd be upset -- but this team is a starter, a set up man, and 2 middle relievers away from being competitive on a nightly basis. How much does that cost to get? Probably more than the prospect-starved Reds can afford to give up.

    There are two schools of thought at work here: School 1 says that you only stay healthy and get off to a good start every so often, and you've got to pull out all the stops to win right now when you have the chance. School 2 says that you should never mortgage tomorrrow just because you're riding a hot streak today. I fall firmly into school 2.

    The one point I do agree with you about is dipping down to the minors. As bad as Weathers, Mercker, and Yan have been this year, there is no reason why Calvin Medlock or Jon Coutlangas haven't been at least given a chance to hold a spot down in middle relief.
    And that doesn't bode well for the short or long term outlook if true. But I don't think it is cost-prohibitive. The Reds have chips at the MLB level. And I'd have no issue cashing some in for long-term help. In fact, I'd have zero issue if cashing in meant we see a small step backwards in the short term because this team, as currently composed, has little chance of reaching the brass ring at any point in the forseeable future.

    To me, the schools of thought are to stay the course and hope something can be done in the offseason or get cracking right now. The former isn't going to offer the Reds much hope of winning this season but the latter might produce the necessary effect while also solidifying the Reds window over the next few seasons.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

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  8. #1222
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    To me, the schools of thought are to stay the course and hope something can be done in the offseason or get cracking right now. The former isn't going to offer the Reds much hope of winning this season but the latter might produce the necessary effect while also solidifying the Reds window over the next few seasons.
    If the on field performance doesn't change soon, then Krivsky can get cracking now as you say and won't have the fan fallout from giving up on a potential playoff spot to deal with.

    And I simply can't see how things on the field are going to get markedly better.

  9. #1223
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    Would some of you give these guys (Kriv and Cas) a chance for cryin' out loud?

    I'm losing more patience with the fans then this management.

    I apologize now for the following statement - but some of you act like spoiled children that no matter what you hand them it's still not enough.

    Yes - Krivsky has made some moves that are doubtful and skeptical.

    I'm sorry he hasn't raised himself to the level of "perfection" that so many on here seem to have attained when it comes to the game of baseball; but his positive moves have far exceeded those skeptical moves.

    Finally - we have no idea what this guy is doing "behind the scenes". But for the most part, and from what I have seen so far, yes, I do trust the guy.
    Sorry GAC - but aren't you the same guy who told everyone to give Lindner a chance time after time in the beginning?

    And aren't you the same guy who stated time and again that Boone was doing a decent job and we just needed to give him time?

    And aren't you also the one who claimed that O'Brien needed time and he couldn't possibly be as bad as Bowden - and we needed to give O'Brien time to right the ship?

    And weren't you also the one who preached time and patience for Miley?

    Seems to be that maybe your trust, historically, may have been misplaced.
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Puffy
    Sorry GAC - but aren't you the same guy who told everyone to give Lindner a chance time after time in the beginning?

    And aren't you the same guy who stated time and again that Boone was doing a decent job and we just needed to give him time?

    And aren't you also the one who claimed that O'Brien needed time and he couldn't possibly be as bad as Bowden - and we needed to give O'Brien time to right the ship?

    And weren't you also the one who preached time and patience for Miley?

    Seems to be that maybe your trust, historically, may have been misplaced.
    So what's the answer. Go the old Steinbrenner route and run people out of town after 3 months?

    This organization has been awful for 5 years; how do you turn it around in one day? Reading this board after a few losses, it seems as though there are quite a few candidates that believe they could step into WK's shoes and guide this team to the world series this year.

  11. #1225
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Why do people equate criticism of a current move as being a call for WK to be fired? Again, why the absolutes?

    I can state unequivocally that I think that WK spit the bit with his roster move bringing in Castro and being forced to mothball EE for far longer than necessary without calling for him to be fired. I hope he does it differently next time, and will be critical as hell if he doesn't do it differently next time, but don't want him fired either. Why does genuine disagreement with a move somehow mean that I (or others that disagree with something he has done) want him gone?

  12. #1226
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal
    Why do people equate criticism of a current move as being a call for WK to be fired? Again, why the absolutes?
    That's the conclusion I drew from the post to which I responded. All the people mentioned in that post were eventually fired (or sold the team in the case of Linder).

  13. #1227
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by NJReds
    That's the conclusion I drew from the post to which I responded. All the people mentioned in that post were eventually fired (or sold the team in the case of Linder).
    Well, it was the wrong conclusion.

    So many people on here are throwing out the In Wayne we Trust that when people question one of Wayne's moves its "he's done well so far" or "he got us Phillips and Arroyo."

    My point was the guy is batting around .500 and doesn't deserve the demigod status that some afford him on here. But no where did I mention anything about firing anyone.
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  14. #1228
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Puffy
    Well, it was the wrong conclusion.

    So many people on here are throwing out the In Wayne we Trust that when people question one of Wayne's moves its "he's done well so far" or "he got us Phillips and Arroyo."

    My point was the guy is batting around .500 and doesn't deserve the demigod status that some afford him on here. But no where did I mention anything about firing anyone.
    He definitely doesn't deserve demigod status. But he can't build a pennant-winner in a couple of months, either.

    I apologize if I came to the wrong conclusion. But reading that post, it sure comes across as though you were calling out GAC for defending WK based on his preaching patience for a bunch of people who were eventully fired and are considered incompetent.

  15. #1229
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    So here's the plan for Narron.

    1. We'll start by giving you a bullpen that is garbage
    2. Then, take away your pitching coach
    3. Give you 3 decent starters.....

    and then expect you to work miracles by magically using them in the right situations to produce optimal results?
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  16. #1230
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    Re: 7-5 vs Brew Crew -- NEED A WIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by VR
    So here's the plan for Narron.

    1. We'll start by giving you a bullpen that is garbage
    2. Then, take away your pitching coach
    3. Give you 3 decent starters.....

    and then expect you to work miracles by magically using them in the right situations to produce optimal results?
    I don't know what the question is, but the answer most assuredly doesn't involve any combination of the following gentlemen:

    1.) Kent Mercker
    2.) David Weathers
    3.) Chris Hammond
    4.) Rick White
    5.) Joe Mays
    6.) Eric Milton
    7.) Esteban Yan
    8.) Jason Standridge
    9.) Brian Shackleford in anything other than a LOOGY capacity
    10.) Mike Burns

    There's an answer to be found, though. Just that these guys aren't it. You can keep answering the question incorrectly, or you can try something else and hope to get it right. If Krivsky is playing for 2007/2008, then I understand just dogging it this year, not making an rash moves, and rebuilding the club in the offseason -- but if he's playing to win this year, he's doing a damned strange job of it when it comes to making a pitching staff.
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