8/28/06: Reds @ L.A. Game Thread

[Tony Cloninger]

I have no problem with your observation....and how it all stops at the top....and the manager and gm are ultimately responsible.

I will call out the manager when he makes bad decisions.....leaving in Arroyo at 110+ pitches.....PH for EE......his sometimes strange decisions on relief pitchers.....things like that...when they happen on a game by game basis.

But to me it feels like people are searching for anything to get on this manager about....even when there are 3-5 more blatant reasons why they will lose a game on a certain night.
Every time.....they find a way to finger Narron...and while he is certainly not someone i think of as a good manager...it get's a little disturbing that he is seen as more of the reason this team is not as good as people think they should be. THIS team is not as good as they seem to be for a reason.....beacuse they are not. No one expects anyone here to be happy about it......but it does need to be accepted, even if it hurt's your feelings.

Last night this team lost beacuse of more reasons to do with certain players....then 1 call on the manager's part that involved a pitch that The Hat did not even have to swing at. We do not know who called the steal...and we certainly do not know if someone told Scott to protect the runner.
I would even venture to say that the catcher....even if Scott does not swing....does not even try to throw the ball in that situation, with 2 outs and the tying run on third base.

This idea that Narron has to will or lead these guys to a victory......sorry, but while he can make the difference in the moves he makes, and he does make some bad ones, i am going to go on a game by game basis as to who to access the blame on a loss. And blaming Narron for this loss is fine...but you have better take about more than half the lineup and a relief pitcher with you.

It is not a loser attitude to not want to blame 1 person...loss after loss.
I don't make excuses for Narron.....or any players....i just do not have a hatred, or intense dislike for anyone on the team really, so i think it allows me not to get carried away with looking to always blame the same person every night. Tonight people were reaching for a way to blame Narron....i think people got carried away, when there was more evidence that the blame lay elsewhere.....for this game at least.

Bad decisions or Bad play should not be overlooked....but when they focus on the same person every day....even when it's the equivalent of looking for a needle in haystack....then you just have to say to yourself that no matter what, you just do not like that person....no matter what that person does....and any focus of frustration will be leveled on that person, ligit or not.

[westofyou]

Tony's right... and I don't even have to look back into the GT to see what or who he's talking about.

"Baseball is a simple game. If you have good players and if you keep them in the right frame of mind then the manager is a success."

Sparky Anderson

[SteelSD]

Last night this team lost beacuse of more reasons to do with certain players....then 1 call on the manager's part that involved a pitch that The Hat did not even have to swing at. We do not know who called the steal...and we certainly do not know if someone told Scott to protect the runner.

I didn't see anyone (myself included) cite that poor decision (the Freel SB) as being the sole reason the Reds lost. It was what it was- a poor decision that contributed to the end result.

Freel's actions on the basepaths fall within the realm of managerial responsibility. If Freel has a standing "green light", the manager can take that off by having his coaches flash the "red light" sign. If Freel doesn't have a standing "green light" to steal whenever he wants, he'd need someone to call for that stolen base. Not flashing the red light isn't any different than calling for that steal. The former is an error of omission and the latter is an error of action. There's only one guy in the dugout who can make either mistake and his name is Jerry Narron.

I'm not sure why commentary about a single game event ended up with you claiming that Narron is being unfairly criticized when Narron is the guy who drives that action one way or another. If we can't talk about that stuff rationally without hearing sweeping indictments about poster intent then we might just as well close the game threads down.

[Ltlabner]

True and to further that the Reds have done a POOR, POOR job making any type of adjustments at the plate. It's no secret the Reds get taken advantage of in key situations because they are simply unprepared. :thumbdown You just can't show up for BP and expect the game to be the same everyday. The Reds have two of the worst Advance Scouts in the Major Leagues. It shows....over and over and over... :thumbdown Hopefully they will not continue to be so cheap that they will not hire a scout to watch their own team. I know of 7 teams that do. As of today 5 are in the playoffs 1 is within 2 games of the division or WC and one has a good enough record that if they were in the NL Central they would be in.

TC, this is something that has become blatently obvious this year. How many times have we been completely baffled by a pitcher with less than stellar stuff while other teams come to town and seem to know just how to approach the pitcher. Where's our scouts giving the team "the goods" on the opposing team?

Somewhere on the rather large "to-do" list Kriv has this off-season, I hope addressing advance scouting and "team scouting" will be found.

[WVRedsFan]

I have no problem with your observation....and how it all stops at the top....and the manager and gm are ultimately responsible.

I will call out the manager when he makes bad decisions.....leaving in Arroyo at 110+ pitches.....PH for EE......his sometimes strange decisions on relief pitchers.....things like that...when they happen on a game by game basis.

But to me it feels like people are searching for anything to get on this manager about....even when there are 3-5 more blatant reasons why they will lose a game on a certain night.
Every time.....they find a way to finger Narron...and while he is certainly not someone i think of as a good manager...it get's a little disturbing that he is seen as more of the reason this team is not as good as people think they should be. THIS team is not as good as they seem to be for a reason.....beacuse they are not. No one expects anyone here to be happy about it......but it does need to be accepted, even if it hurt's your feelings.

Last night this team lost beacuse of more reasons to do with certain players....then 1 call on the manager's part that involved a pitch that The Hat did not even have to swing at. We do not know who called the steal...and we certainly do not know if someone told Scott to protect the runner.
I would even venture to say that the catcher....even if Scott does not swing....does not even try to throw the ball in that situation, with 2 outs and the tying run on third base.

This idea that Narron has to will or lead these guys to a victory......sorry, but while he can make the difference in the moves he makes, and he does make some bad ones, i am going to go on a game by game basis as to who to access the blame on a loss. And blaming Narron for this loss is fine...but you have better take about more than half the lineup and a relief pitcher with you.

It is not a loser attitude to not want to blame 1 person...loss after loss.
I don't make excuses for Narron.....or any players....i just do not have a hatred, or intense dislike for anyone on the team really, so i think it allows me not to get carried away with looking to always blame the same person every night. Tonight people were reaching for a way to blame Narron....i think people got carried away, when there was more evidence that the blame lay elsewhere.....for this game at least.

Bad decisions or Bad play should not be overlooked....but when they focus on the same person every day....even when it's the equivalent of looking for a needle in haystack....then you just have to say to yourself that no matter what, you just do not like that person....no matter what that person does....and any focus of frustration will be leveled on that person, ligit or not.

Good points. I hope you didn't think I was jumping on you personally. It was your post that just set me off and I apologize for dumping on you.

Narron deserves a lot of criticism, and he usually gets more than he deserves, but to excuse him of any blame would be wrong. I personally felt like Freel was on his own there. And it's no secret that I think Freel is a sparkplug 50% of the time and a real downer 50% of the time.

[Falls City Beer]

I didn't see anyone (myself included) cite that poor decision (the Freel SB) as being the sole reason the Reds lost. It was what it was- a poor decision that contributed to the end result.

Freel's actions on the basepaths fall within the realm of managerial responsibility. If Freel has a standing "green light", the manager can take that off by having his coaches flash the "red light" sign. If Freel doesn't have a standing "green light" to steal whenever he wants, he'd need someone to call for that stolen base. Not flashing the red light isn't any different than calling for that steal. The former is an error of omission and the latter is an error of action. There's only one guy in the dugout who can make either mistake and his name is Jerry Narron.

I'm not sure why commentary about a single game event ended up with you claiming that Narron is being unfairly criticized when Narron is the guy who drives that action one way or another. If we can't talk about that stuff rationally without hearing sweeping indictments about poster intent then we might just as well close the game threads down.

I don't see how you can boil a loss down to one out made on the basepaths considering they spent the entire evening pissing away opportunities like cheap wine.

And by saying this I'm agreeing with your point above.

[VR]

I don't see how you can boil a loss down to one out made on the basepaths considering they spent the entire evening pissing away opportunities like cheap wine.

And by saying this I'm agreeing with your point above.

He didn't make an out did he?

[Falls City Beer]

He didn't make an out did he?

I don't know--I thought you were talking about an out being made. Never mind.

[Reds Nd2]

Tonight people were reaching for a way to blame Narron....i think people got carried away, when there was more evidence that the blame lay elsewhere.....for this game at least.

I sincerely hope this entire post was born of frustration from the general tone of the overall board lately. If it is, then I'm in total agreement with you. If it's based soley on the last few pages of discussion concerning Ryan Freels stolen base, then well, I don't know what to say. It was a very good discussion of the change in game dynamic before and after the play. I wish more game threads were of the quality of the last few pages.

[Tony Cloninger]

Yes....my post was borne out of frustration that a single play......insignificant to me in why the team ended up losing.....ends up being the focal point it seems...above all the other more blatant reasons....as to why this team lost last night.

It was still good analysis by everyone.......and I never try to say or imply....that Narron does not need to be bashed for what he does wrong...or that we have to close these threads if they become to negative.

The discussions were rationale......i just did not agree with it.
I thought i made a rationale retort to them......borne more out of my opinion...than actual proof that i am correct, or incorrect.

AND i post this after watching another situation where the Reds cannot blow a game open....with yet another opportunity to do so.

IF the Reds lose tonight it will be probably beacuse of that inning with bases loaded and 0 outs....... a struggling EE ( You K 2 times against that LHP, you are slumping! ) a confused Griffey ( why was he upset....he swung at a ball a couple inches outside and tired to pull it....what did you think was going to happen?).....and then a shot by RA finds another glove.

[Reds Nd2]

Yes....my post was borne out of frustration that a single play......insignificant to me in why the team ended up losing.....ends up being the focal point it seems...above all the other more blatant reasons....as to why this team lost last night.

There were alot of reasons the Reds lost last night, no doubt. Alot of bad baseball played by the Reds too. That had to be one of the worst rundowns I've seen. I don't think the stolen base became the focal point of the Reds losing though and only one person commented that it was the defining moment of the game. I do think it was the point the game thread actually began discussing the play on the field in an entertaining manner. There was plenty to be frustrated about this game thread long before page 21 when the stolen base discussion began.

It was still good analysis by everyone.......and I never try to say or imply....that Narron does not need to be bashed for what he does wrong...or that we have to close these threads if they become to negative.

The discussions were rationale......i just did not agree with it.
I thought i made a rationale retort to them......borne more out of my opinion...than actual proof that i am correct, or incorrect.

I agree. I thought it was very good analysis, but I didn't get the feeling anyone was actually bashing Narron at that point. In fact, I thought my comment about playing for the win on the road because it's in the book was the snarkiest of the comments made during the discussion. I can't speak for Steel about closing the threads, but he does have a point. If we can't have a "rational" discussion with "good analysis", what's the point of even having a game thread?

I missed your retort last night because I went to bed right after the game ended, but disagreement is a good thing. It leads to better discussions. I've learned alot about baseball from disagreeing with people here.

There is so much more to be frustrated about the discussions on RedsZone than the last five pages of last nights game thread IMO.

IF the Reds lose tonight it will be probably beacuse of that inning with bases loaded and 0 outs....... a struggling EE ( You K 2 times against that LHP, you are slumping! ) a confused Griffey ( why was he upset....he swung at a ball a couple inches outside and tired to pull it....what did you think was going to happen?).....and then a shot by RA finds another glove.

If the Red lose tonight, they won't, but if they do it will be because they are really a sub .500 team playing above their heads and those teams end up losing games in the most frustrating ways with plenty of blame to go around.

[Tony Cloninger]

Well.......Lose they did......but you can name more than just the inning i described above. Why Narron has to be Gene Mauch JR.......and invite the ridicule that he does...is beyond me. Do not take out DUNN!!.....when he is hitting like he was.

You made the best point......that this team is barely, if that......a .500 team.
That's the bottom line....they are not that good.....some think they are, i think with more tweaking they can be...but unless BC goes a little crazy in the FAmarket, next year might be even worse. A regression.