09.04.06 Labor Day Game Thread: Giants @ Reds

[Matt700wlw]

Somewhere Paul Simon is singing...

"Slip Slidin' Away."

[WVRedsFan]

Let's hope John Allen has no say---its utimately Krivsky's decision.

Let's see the offense without Jr. They seem to play a little better when he's not in there.

Which makes no sense at all. If Junior goes 0-4 and his replacement goes 0-4 (which happened a lot when he was hurt earlier), but the Reds win, how did not having Junior in the lineup make a difference?

I'm going to do some very boring research because this is repeated over and over without substantiation.

[George Foster]

Which makes no sense at all. If Junior goes 0-4 and his replacement goes 0-4 (which happened a lot when he was hurt earlier), but the Reds win, how did not having Junior in the lineup make a difference?

I'm going to do some very boring research because this is repeated over and over without substantiation.

Just look at Griffeys first DL this year. We were like 9, 10 games over .500 before he came back.

[LincolnparkRed]

Just look at Griffeys first DL this year. We were like 9, 10 games over .500 before he came back.

by that logic you are right. but it is sad to say we are now hoping the reds turn it around with Griffey gone, saying he was one of the only ones performing at the plate over the last 2 weeks

[edabbs44]

Easy to say this. Who are this year's difference makers that were traded?

Maddux? Is it even possible that the REDS could have gotten him? Would he come to Cincinnati (same divison)? Who would the REDS have to give to get? 1000-1 odds that it could happen IMO.

Wells? Who do the REDS offer that will bring him?

Hillebrand is a 3rd baseman... not interested with EE.

Who else did the REDS have a legit shot of getting that makes a difference?

Once again... do the REDS trade a Homer Bailey type for a 1-year rental? Do we all go bonkers that a young "future player" goes to get someone for this year.

I think Lieber could have been had for a song and a dance. And if he could have kept his ERA in the 4s, it would have been a huge upgrade.

[RedFanAlways1966]

Seeing Bonds hit that HR (which was really uncalled for. In that situation, you do not give him the chance to hurt you) and Griffey having another freak injury was just too much.

I'll follow the Reds until I'm in the grave, but this fan is totally disappointed with our owner, manager, GM, and a lot of the players. Sad, but true. This season, regardless of talent level, could have been really special. It's turned into a nightmare.

Not picking on you, WV. Do you put the go-ahead run at the plate by walking Bonds in the 8th? There is an unwritten rule somewhere that says you do not do this. Does a "Barry Bonds" flip this unwritten rule upside-down? You have your best pitcher throwing w/out a ridiculous number of pitches on his back (and only 5H in 7.2 IP), have Bonds who did not look great in three previous ABs (although it is still BB)... then a very bad mistake pitch. Tough decision. But many cringe at the idea of putting the go-ahead run at the plate by walking the previous hitter. As it turns out (w/ the Bonds HR) the go-ahead run came to the plate anyway, but that should not factor into a manager's thinking ("what if they hit a 2R bomb to tie it?").

<soapbox> The ride has been frustrating lately. We must not forget that this team was picked to finish last in the division by many. Not many would have even bet that they'd be "only" 68-70 after 138 games this year... they'd have thought it would be worse. It doesn't make it feel any better, I know. Lots of REDS fans got the taste of blood in their mouths. That taste began for many when the REDS won Aug. 13 to pull w/in 1.5 games. Mid-August, only 1.5 back and heading for a 3-game series against the 1st place Cards (who just got swept by the Pirates). On Aug. 24 the "surprising" REDS beat the Giants in the first game of a dreaded 10-game West Coast trip. The win tied them for 1st place. Made them 68-61. Tied for 1st and comfortable in the Wild Card. Of course (George) we know the rest of the story.

The REDS are now 68-70. 138 games. Some seem to think it is over. Not me (division is over, WC is not yet). Even if it is, 138 games is better than:

2005: Division chances pretty much done May 4 (26 games!).
>> REDS lose to 1st Cards and fall 8.5 GB. 12.5 GB by end of May and 10 games under .500 (21-31). Never get closer than that. 27 GB at end.

2004: Division chances pretty much done July 7 (84 games).
>> REDS lose to 1st Cards and fall 8.0 GB. 10 GB by July 15 and below .500 (50-51) on July 27 and never get above .500 again. 29 GB at end.

2003: Division chances pretty much done July 10 (90 games).
>> REDS lose to 1st Astros (ends a 4 game sweep by HOU) and fall to 7.5 GB. Have a 40-50 record. 10 GB by of July 21. 19 GB at end.

2nd place may not mean post-season (2nd place: playoffs for 1 of 3 teams). But it exceeds any expert's pick for the 2006 season. They might drop to 3rd place. Still exceeding those experts and their picks. Heck, even 4th is better! Doesn't make it easy to swallow after that taste got in my mouth, but puts things into perspective a bit. Weak league? Sure. No problem for this fan that watched/suffered those above-mentioned seasons. Played above their heads for 138 games? Perhaps. Better than those previous REDS teams and more interesting.

Perspective. I keep trying to remind myself of this. Painful as it has been for the last 10 games... this year had some good times. As many or more than 2004 & 2005 combined.

[TheBigLebowski]

No doubt. Two under .500 and slipping proves whatever plan that the brain trust had, it didn't work. In fact it fell on its face. Defend them all you want, but he main goal is winning and we're not doing that and with the present slide, we could drop far down in the standings. As usual. All the many moves did nothing to put this team over the top. It's really depressing right now.

Seeing Bonds hit that HR (which was really uncalled for. In that situation, you do not give him the chance to hurt you) and Griffey having another freak injury was just too much.

I'll follow the Reds until I'm in the grave, but this fan is totally disappointed with our owner, manager, GM, and a lot of the players. Sad, but true. This season, regardless of talent level, could have been really special. It's turned into a nightmare.

I agree.

One thing I never thought I'd say and, this is no reflection upon the man but meant purely towards the player and the overall well-being of the franchise - I do not want to see JR in Cincy next season unless he is a corner OF and not our designated 3 hitter. That ship has sailed for him. He will continue to hurt us if we design our roster based on the 1997 version of KGJ and not the v.2007. He still has a place here when appropriately valued.

[WVRedsFan]

I agree.

One thing I never thought I'd say and, this is no reflection upon the man but meant purely towards the player and the overall well-being of the franchise - I do not want to see JR in Cincy next season unless he is a corner OF and not our designated 3 hitter. That ship has sailed for him. He will continue to hurt us if we design our roster based on the 1997 version of KGJ and not the v.2007. He still has a place here when appropriately valued.

And I'll add one more thing TBL. I wish he'd just go away. I love him, his personna, his home runs, his play, everything. It was the proudest day I've ever had as a Reds fan when he came home. I've loved what he's done here in Cincy, even though it has been cut short by injuries. I do not want to go through another season of people constantly saying that he can't play defense anymore, though he plays defense as well as most average CF's in baseball (any tough play that he misses is always because he is old or can't run anymore). I am so tired of the bashing him because he doesn't come through in the clutch when more favored players get a pass.

I'm tired of the lack of respect a hall of famer gets here that would not and did not happen with an aging Stan Musial in St. Louis, an aging Ted Williams in Boston, and an aging Hank Aaron in Atlanta. It's just a shame. And to even ever consider Ryan Freel as an adequate all-around center fielder to replace Junior is laughable. Yes, Ryan Freel will makes or at least try to make some plays Junior cannot, but in the long run, Ryan will make enough mental mistakes to negate the positives. And don't get me started on Denorfia. And for those who said today when Denorfia entered the game and made a good catch that we already had gained something with him in center rather than Griffey, just remember that comment. It will come back to haunt you.

My position since the middle of this season is this. Trade him to a place that will appreciate him. If you can't trade him, DFA him and pay him. Then the BS will stop and I can maybe settle down a little bit. It just burns me up.

And as for the "they always play better without Griffey" argument. I'm still researching this. I researching it mainly from his "replacement" players and how they did. So far, there is no corelation. It's just luck. Typical.

[REDREAD]

Man, I turned off the radio and went to eat my dinner with the Reds up 4-2 and feeling good.

I come back and I see this.. You guys let me down, how could you let the Reds lose this one.

Damn that Shea Hillandbrand.

[REDREAD]

I think Lieber could have been had for a song and a dance. And if he could have kept his ERA in the 4s, it would have been a huge upgrade.

Yeah, Lieber would've been a good pickup. We probably had plenty of options for players to pick up, considering we were willing to trade Kearns and Lopez.
It's defeatist thinking to say that Wayne couldn't have done better. He certainly could have. The team is WORSE off because of Wayne's midseason tweaks (as a whole).

[RedLegSuperStar]

Man, I turned off the radio and went to eat my dinner with the Reds up 4-2 and feeling good.

I come back and I see this.. You guys let me down, how could you let the Reds lose this one.

Damn that Shea Hillandbrand.

Oh.. so you lost us the game by leaving!

[MrCinatit]

During a time like this, I believe there is little the front office can do for this team. The responsibility of pulling the team out of a late season funk like this lies much on the shoulders of on-field management.
And that depresses me most.
I realize Narron is a nice guy. He looks like it. He really does.
But, we don't need a nice guy. We need a guy who can light a fire under some of these deadweights, to remind them day in and day out that they are in a playoff hunt, and that candle had almost again been blown out thanks to their own incompetence.
We need a guy whose passion shows at times - a guy who will even go to the extent of yelling at an umpire during the National Anthem after he has already been tossed from the game.
If only we could find the baseball equivelant of Marvin Lewis.

[RollyInRaleigh]

Truth be told, the responsibility lies on the players. Not the GM, not the field manager, not the coaches, not the equipment manager or bat boy. This is a pennant race. I don't think you need to motivate players to be passionate about winning in a pennant race. These guys are professionals and they know what is at stake. They are simply not getting it done.

[Moosie52]

This slide started shortly after Castelinni sent his "You guys have no quit" letter. He should never have brought that up.

[membengal]

This slide started shortly after Castelinni sent his "You guys have no quit" letter. He should never have brought that up.

True dat.

Guess they showed him...