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Thread: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

  1. #16
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    The most ridiculous thing I've ever heard was someone I knew making a list of 10 Cd's he would take to a desert island, turns out he'd only actually HEARD a handful of them, the others were chosen because certain people he knew didn't like them so he knew they must be great

    People should like what they want to like and a merry take a hike to those who argue
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  3. #17
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    There are plenty of artisits who don't write their own music, and who's voice is their instrument. Elvis, for example, had most of his music written for him, IIRC. He may not be your cup of tea, but I think most people recognize that his ability to entertain people with his voice and style (dispite translating someone elses music) is worthy of appreciation.
    I think that today Elvis would be a lot like some of these pop stars. He probably would be just another star in todays world, not nearly the icon he was. That is just the nature of the beast with the way music is today. I'm not saying that that is bad, it is just something that, like you say, isn't my cup of tea. I appreciate all performers. It takes talent to perform. To some of them it is acting. Acting is a talent. Voices are an instrument, but instuments aren't the only reason I listen to music. I like artists who write and play music that is at least partly their creation. For instance, I hate cover songs for the most part. They may sound better than the original, but the cover songs loose the original emotion IMO. There was inspiration behind the first song. The second song may have inspiration, but if that inspiration can't be put in their own words, I don't want to hear it. Just one of my quirks.

    Also, most of these artists that you and OldRightHander speak of that play songs that have been written have the artistic vision that I would argue some of todays pop stars don't. Its comparing apples and oranges to me.

  4. #18
    SERP deep cover ops WebScorpion's Avatar
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    I agree that I see this love of obscurity for obscurity's sake in movies, music, and/or books. In fact, I see it everywhere...in all the little niche groups, wine connoisseurs, beer fans, dog lovers, cigar aficianados, even Trekkies. I think it's just a misinterpretation of the true appreciation of things...they equate knowledge of obscure minutiae with appreciation of the thing itself. It's not really that annoying until you couple it with an overly competitive outlook and then you get the "I am a bigger snarfblat fan because I know more about snarfblats than you do" attitude. This usually rubs me the wrong way and I try to avoid these types of people...because I am obviously better than them. <----- Sarcasm indicator

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  5. #19
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    <======== likes 50's and 70's pop music.

    Big Stephen King fan too.
    "Whatever you choose, however many roads you travel, I hope that you choose not to be a lady. I hope you will find some way to break the rules and make a little trouble out there. And I also hope that you will choose to make some of that trouble on behalf of women." - Nora Ephron

  6. #20
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission first." - Eleanor Roosevelt
    Quit trying to usurp RBA's gig!

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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    Quote Originally Posted by OldRightHander View Post
    Something has kind of bothered me for a few years now, not a major bother, but it still irks me sometimes. I have seen it on here to a degree, and also in workplaces I used to find myself in before I started driving. It's this idea that liking the more obscure is a sign of better taste, or the idea that liking the popular thing is somehow a sign of unrefined taste or at the least something to be ashamed of.

    You see it a lot when people are discussing music. My tastes can run into the obscure, but that's mainly from a style preference than anything else, but there are times while channel flipping on the radio that I will hear a popular song and think, "That sounds pretty good." Now I will never try to compare the musical quality of a pop song with something like Handel, but both have their rightful place and can be enjoyed. I might be off base a bit, but it just seems that in most musical discussions, there is almost this unwritten rule that anything mainstream is off limits. Don't get me wrong though. I will be the first to admit that most of the mainstream music is garbage, but there still seems to be a group of people who will despise anything mainstream just because it's mainstream, not necessarily because of the quality or lack thereof.

    I notice it as well is some of the literary circles I find myself in at times. Everyone seems to be reading only obscure out of the way authors or books and if you admit to reading, much less enjoying, something that might have been a bestseller, you're frowned upon. You had better not go on some of these sites and mention authors such as Clancy and Cussler unless you want to be laughed out of the virtual room by those who would never stoop low enough to read such fluff.

    If you were to come to my house and look at my bookshelf, you will see some volumes there that could be considered fine literature, a few non fiction books that are geared toward a more educated crowd, but you will also see a decent collection of rather popular novels that I am not ashamed to admit I enjoy. Sometimes you read for enlightenment, sometimes for enjoyment. Sometimes you listen to something that makes you thing, sometimes you just want to tap your feet and not think that much.

    I guess that the same things could be said about movies, tv programming, and any other medium out there that can be used for education or entertainment. There are some who will consider their tastes more refined than others because they stay away from the popular fluff and only partake in the finer offerings. What I see too much of though is an attitude that seems to boil down to obscurity=good taste, popularity=bad taste. That attitude just bugs me a bit. Anyone else?
    But if you like popular things, isn't your taste vindicated? I don't understand your annoyance. If other people's cultural tastes don't conform to popular culture, doesn't that prove the insufficiency of their taste? Pop culture, as the dominant culture, must be the most viable culture.

  8. #22
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    People just don't admit they like pop music and bestsellers.

    I bet you'd be surprised at what people could sing along too.
    "Whatever you choose, however many roads you travel, I hope that you choose not to be a lady. I hope you will find some way to break the rules and make a little trouble out there. And I also hope that you will choose to make some of that trouble on behalf of women." - Nora Ephron

  9. #23
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    I like some books and music that are legitimately good. The artistry is right there for anyone who cares to pay attention. There's some other books and music that are in the "great art" category that I can't stand.

    I also like some books and music that I know are complete crap from an artistic standpoint. I'm cool with that. The mass market churns out out generic, if pleasing, stuff. That's its function. It means things sell based on mass appeal, which often demands that lowest common denominators be found. People aren't looking to be challenged most of the time. They want something predictable, some disposable entertainment. There's nothing wrong with that.

    It means basic works with a good hook catch the popular imagination, while other, more challenging works, languish in obscurity. For instance, "Motherless Brooklyn" is a better book than "The Da Vinci Code". I'm not being a snob about that, it just is. Both are compulsive page turners. Both attempt to put some new twists into forumulaic genres (seedy New York and the international whodunit). Yet when you get down to the execution, Dan Brown writes incredibly basic sentences. He came up with a nifty premise and delivered it for a mass audience. He's rich for it and good for him. Meanwhile, Jonathan Lethem created a true original in the character of Lionel Essrog, a young Town Car driver with Tourette's out to solve the mystery of who murdered his boss. Brown wrote and incredibly popular novel. Lethem wrote an incredibly popular novel among the literary "in" crowd. The world makes space for both.
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  10. #24
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    My favorite song in 1997 was "Don't Go Chasing Waterfalls" by TLC.

    I still get flack for it to this day. Probably because I force everyone I know to listen to it at my house when they come over. "This is one of the greatest R&B songs EVER!" usually accompanies it.

    I also am a huge Hall and Oats fan. Girls love Hall and Oats.

    I think most people like some of everything. It's just getting them to admit to what they listen to when nobody is around that is the hard part. I learn a ton about myself and my musical tastes when I go on a long road trip with someone. Singing along to "Shine Sweet Freedom" or something with a good friend is almost as priceless as life itself.
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  11. #25
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    Quit trying to usurp RBA's gig!
    Poor man. Poor man's RBA.

    I don't think that quotes holds up in all contexts. Racism, for example, makes a pretty good case for any certain group of people to feel inferior, and when it's backed up by action, then it is downright criminal (though it's a criminal act being prosecuted, not the bringing on of an inferiority complex). (I just finished watching Law and Order.) But anywho, I'm just always perplexed when people become upset about others criticizing their taste. The validation of taste comes in the very definition of it. Taste is valid because it's yours, not because someone else says it's valid. The only way I think taste can be invalidated is if it's not genuine, if it exists to like something because you think it should.

    Now, there are entirely separate arguments about what is actually good, and this is more what M2 is talking about. This is usually an argument involving tastes backed up by facts, and to me an opinion backed up by fact is always stronger than opinion alone. In any given art form there is generally a set of technical criteria -- dramatic structure, technical composition, whatever. It doesn't mean that a strong piece of music or literature has to have those criteria -- some are very strong precisely because they deviate from them, but there's often at least an awareness of them. But not always. And people devote their entire lives to dissecting this kind of stuff, it can be tremendously fun. That's also why critical reviews are often in synch with each other, and why they often jive with the opinions of "experts" in any given field: if critics are doing their jobs correctly, they're judging something by a set of standard criteria that has probably been studied and is somewhat uniform. I suppose a good critic is able to use all those criteria and then step back and see what the whole entity of something made him feel. But it should never be based on what he feels alone. If that were the case, everyone'd be a critic. If someone's paid to give an opinion on something, he should know why it's good or bad, not just why he liked or didn't like it. Art has rules too.

    So if this is what you're referring to, ORH, if people are interested in hearing you defend your taste because they really want to hear why you like something, I recommend giving it a shot. It's likely not personal and you'll likely discover something about why you like something that may make you appreciate it even more. But if they're not interested in reasons, if you truly feel like you're being "laughed at" because what you like isn't "cool", then heed Eleanor Roosevelt and don't even bother. That clearly has nothing to do with you and everything to do with them seeking unfounded validation in their own tastes (which, again, cannot be validated by anything but their own existence). Time is so precious, it's totally beyond my comprehension why anyone would waste his time propping up someone else who doesn't deserve it. I have wasted enough time on that in ridiculous relationships, thank you. My tastes deserve better.
    Last edited by vaticanplum; 10-29-2007 at 07:29 PM.
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  12. #26
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    Journey rocks! And I'm not sorry.
    I've like Duran Duran since 1981 and have not backed down. I love to tell a story of going into Musicland for a Duran Duran single but decided to get some other music as well. Well I put the DD CD single on top of my bundle (which included Led Zep's box set and the Beatles Anthology #2). The clerk took a look at the Duran CD and stated "I can't believe anyone would buy this". : I calmly took all the music and put it back on the shelves and walked out the door (never to return). I did eventually get all the music except for the Beatles Anthology #2... I do have #1 and #3 tho'.
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  13. #27
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    Oh, I just thought of something else! A lot of this "taste" involves your hard earned money - is it wise to spend it on someone else's taste?
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  14. #28
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    Quote Originally Posted by WebScorpion View Post
    I agree that I see this love of obscurity for obscurity's sake in movies, music, and/or books. In fact, I see it everywhere...in all the little niche groups, wine connoisseurs, beer fans, dog lovers, cigar aficianados, even Trekkies. I think it's just a misinterpretation of the true appreciation of things...they equate knowledge of obscure minutiae with appreciation of the thing itself. It's not really that annoying until you couple it with an overly competitive outlook and then you get the "I am a bigger snarfblat fan because I know more about snarfblats than you do" attitude. This usually rubs me the wrong way and I try to avoid these types of people...because I am obviously better than them. <----- Sarcasm indicator
    Several years ago, George Will (I think) wrote a column about how, with '80s-style conspicuous consumption having gone out of style, people had simply transferred their snobbery to smaller things.

    But for most people, I don't think it's really about snobbery. There are certain things in life where people seem to want to fit in with the crowd and certain things where people want to stand out. By emphasizing what we like that's not what everyone else seems to like, we feel like we stand out more. Not a problem so long as we're being honest about it and not defining our likes based on what we think will impress others.
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  15. #29
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    My favorite Journey story, which I'm sure I've told here before, but I'm telling it again, involves music snobbery.

    I was at a record store in the winter of 1981 and there were two 17ish girls working at the place with a early 20ish manager who was trying to impress them (no doubt keeping the conversation well away from the fact that he surely lived with his parents). John Cougar had just scored the top two songs in the nation with "Hurts So Good" and "Jack and Diane", which Casey Kasem is informing us all as America's Top 40 plays over the store sound system.

    The manager then pipes up that he never thought he'd live to see the day that John Cougar had the top two songs in the nation. Why couldn't someone with some real talent have done it? Someone like Journey.

    That's where I broke out into hysterical laughter. Just started pointing at him and laughing, occasionally stopping for breath and to exclaim "Journey!" Then I'd laugh some more. My sides hurt I was laughing so hard.
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  16. #30
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    Re: Obscurity, popularity, and taste

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    My favorite song in 1997 was "Don't Go Chasing Waterfalls" by TLC.

    I still get flack for it to this day. Probably because I force everyone I know to listen to it at my house when they come over. "This is one of the greatest R&B songs EVER!" usually accompanies it.

    I also am a huge Hall and Oats fan. Girls love Hall and Oats.

    I think most people like some of everything. It's just getting them to admit to what they listen to when nobody is around that is the hard part. I learn a ton about myself and my musical tastes when I go on a long road trip with someone. Singing along to "Shine Sweet Freedom" or something with a good friend is almost as priceless as life itself.
    Didn't you criticize me for liking "The Middle" by Jimmy Eat World?

    Your credibility is now shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    My favorite Journey story, which I'm sure I've told here before, but I'm telling it again, involves music snobbery.

    I was at a record store in the winter of 1981 and there were two 17ish girls working at the place with a early 20ish manager who was trying to impress them (no doubt keeping the conversation well away from the fact that he surely lived with his parents). John Cougar had just scored the top two songs in the nation with "Hurts So Good" and "Jack and Diane", which Casey Kasem is informing us all as America's Top 40 plays over the store sound system.

    The manager then pipes up that he never thought he'd live to see the day that John Cougar had the top two songs in the nation. Why couldn't someone with some real talent have done it? Someone like Journey.

    That's where I broke out into hysterical laughter. Just started pointing at him and laughing, occasionally stopping for breath and to exclaim "Journey!" Then I'd laugh some more. My sides hurt I was laughing so hard.
    I recently saw a bright red Porsche 944 with the personalized license plate "JRNYFAN".
    Last edited by Johnny Footstool; 10-30-2007 at 12:06 AM.
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