Obscurity, popularity, and taste

[HumnHilghtFreel]

Musical talent is ability to sing and/or play an instrument. That's a pretty broad definition.

Saying poetry over a sampled beat doesn't meet that definition.

I'm not saying rappers aren't talented -- they have a great deal of talent. But they don't sing and don't usually play an instrument. They're entertainers -- artist, even -- but not musicians.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sFb9UqELX8w

I love The Roots a lot more than most "rap groups" simply for the fact that they play their own instruments and typically aren't overproduced.

[vaticanplum]

Musical talent is ability to sing and/or play an instrument. That's a pretty broad definition.

Saying poetry over a sampled beat doesn't meet that definition.

I'm not saying rappers aren't talented -- they have a great deal of talent. But they don't sing and don't usually play an instrument. They're entertainers -- artist, even -- but not musicians.

Well, to play the devil's advocate, "sing" has a pretty broad definition too. A lot of what constitutes a person's singing ability is personal taste too.

I would still say music has a broader definition for me than it does for you. Which is what still keeps it in the "taste" category to a degree.

[SunDeck]

I think the issue is not whether people purposefully gravitate towards the obscure, or whether they like what is popular, or whether there is some value inherent in those choices. Rather, I believe it is right to be annoyed about how people use those choices.

For instance, someone may have an in depth interest in film. This interest makes them no better or worse than anyone else. However, I have been annoyed to no end by people who believe a conversation about film really is a competition to see who knows more about the subject. On the other hand, I have had wonderful conversations with people who know comparatively little about film, yet who really like to talk about the movies they like. What is the difference? Usually the person who creates the more enjoyable conversation has as much or even more interest in the other person's opinions and experiences, thereby using the conversation to validate the other person, to draw them out and to establish a rapport. To put it simply, they are a good conversationalist. The other person, the one who annoys me, despite having a lot of knowledge that I would enjoy exploring, is a blow hard, a know-it-all, who is more content to hear himself speak than to participate in a conversation.

It's pretty simple. Nobody really cares what anyone else likes, but everyone wants to impress other people. Unfortunately, some people confuse the two so that they believe more people will be impressed by them if what they like (or what they know) is more impressive.

[M2]

Musical talent is ability to sing and/or play an instrument. That's a pretty broad definition.

Saying poetry over a sampled beat doesn't meet that definition.

I'm not saying rappers aren't talented -- they have a great deal of talent. But they don't sing and don't usually play an instrument. They're entertainers -- artist, even -- but not musicians.

I'll take Chuck D's voice over Steve Perry's any day of the week. Nelly, Ludacris, Queen Latifah, they've all got their own distinctive vocal styles. They're not talking. Rap songs have got choruses and vocal bridges and runs and everything you'd find in a pop song. I'm no huge rap fan, but I recognize that it's lyrical content (something that's akin what your standard travelling bard would have done in the Middle Ages).

On the musician end of things, I'd like it if more bands in that genre played instruments, but I understand why they don't. It's a lot easier to pay for two turntables and microphone than it is for a guitar, bass, drum set, keyboard and amps. Go back to doo wop or Motown and what you mostly had was acts that used their voices to musical effect. Rap isn't anything new in that regard and I'd argue that the production of the music in the background, while not your standard instrumentation, takes more than a fair amount of musical talent.

[Falls City Beer]

Rap isn't anything new in that regard and I'd argue that the production of the music in the background, while not your standard instrumentation, takes more than a fair amount of musical talent.

Some rhythm tracks on rap albums are flat-out byzantine in their complexity. Though, unfortunately, those tend to be awfully rare. Similarly, truly gifted free-stylers are rare.

Most hip-hop goofs hit the 4/4 button on their TR-808s, and chant, "Gimme some uh dat Tootsie Roll!" Sub-juvenile garbage.

Rap right now is flooded with crap. If that makes me sound like grandpa, so be it. There just ain't that much holding it together in the skill department.

[M2]

Some rhythm tracks on rap albums are flat-out byzantine in their complexity. Though, unfortunately, those tend to be awfully rare. Similarly, truly gifted free-stylers are rare.

Most hip-hop goofs hit the 4/4 button on their TR-808s, and chant, "Gimme some uh dat Tootsie Roll!" Sub-juvenile garbage.

Rap right now is flooded with crap. If that makes me sound like grandpa, so be it. There just ain't that much holding it together in the skill department.

That's the same with any genre though - country, pop, metal, punk. You've got the vast majority of acts following the formula and a small number doing something original. I don't listen to enough rap to know who's breaking new ground at the moment, which gets back to the obscurity part of this thread. Those who do pay close attention could steer me toward the good stuff if I were so inclined to seek it out and, in general, I'm glad there's folks to do the sorting and show us at times there's something worth hearing in what at times feels like an ocean of mass market crap.

[Falls City Beer]

That's the same with any genre though - country, pop, metal, punk. You've got the vast majority of acts following the formula and a small number doing something original. I don't listen to enough rap to know who's breaking new ground at the moment, which gets back to the obscurity part of this thread. Those who do pay close attention could steer me toward the good stuff if I were so inclined to seek it out and, in general, I'm glad there's folks to do the sorting and show us at times there's something worth hearing in what at times feels like an ocean of mass market crap.

I feel comfortable saying there are far more original works being created in rock right now.

And the "rap underground" right now is basically non-existent. The thing is that pretty much all the good rap that ever existed, the Dre-produced stuff, Tupac, Snoop, some Biggie, was huge--rap is pretty much designed NOT to be underground. There's no cachet in rap anonymity.

Go listen to this generation's leading lights: Lil Wayne, Kanye West, Diplomats, all that Dirty South nonsense. Pretty much all glitz crap. The genre needs a new zeitgeist, badly.

[M2]

I feel comfortable saying there are far more original works being created in rock right now.

And the "rap underground" right now is basically non-existent. The thing is that pretty much all the good rap that ever existed, the Dre-produced stuff, Tupac, Snoop, some Biggie, was huge--rap is pretty much designed NOT to be underground. There's no cachet in rap anonymity.

Go listen to this generation's leading lights: Lil Wayne, Kanye West, Diplomats, all that Dirty South nonsense. Pretty much all glitz crap. The genre needs a new zeitgeist, badly.

I don't pay enough attention to know how much original stuff is being created in rap these days.

That said, I know there's some real good French and Arabic stuff (MC Solaar and Salah Edin) coming from overseas. The Streets came out of Birmingham, England. Perhaps what rap needs is something like a British Invasion. My wife maintains that it hip hop works a lot better in French because the language has a more lyrical flow.

I'm told Boston's got an underground rap scene, don't know much more than that, just that it's there and supposedly it's backbeats are all coming from Danger Mouse wannabes. Providence has got Sage Francis, who did the hysterical Dance Monkey.

I was up at the Francophone music festival in Montreal two years ago and there were a number of decent or better hip hop acts, most doing crazy fusion stuff, lots of actual instrument playing involved.

Point being, there's more out there than the mass market stuff (which I find every bit of bereft of talent as you do).