How's that process working for the Pirates, Brewers, Royals, etc.?Originally Posted by Ltlabner
Not that I'm agreeing to sell the farm, but it's time to get off the treadmill and start actually running the race for a change.
FWIW, I don't think WK would've just let this club slow build either. I think he had to realize, as many do, that they're close enough to warrant a big deal to bring 1 or 2 'help now' guys in for 2009.
Cincinnati Reds: Farm System Champions 2022
Yep. My take exactly. I too hoped there was more to this than we were hearing, but I'm afraid there isn't.
Castellini just sacked a fine man, a career baseball man who worked very hard to make the organization better.
Only time will tell if it was the right move. I don't need any more time to know that the method and timing were terrible.
We'll go down in history as the first society that wouldn't save itself because it wasn't cost effective ~ Kurt Vonnegut
Or the Braves, A's or St. Louis. I don't mean slow build like 12 years, and agree that with a few big/slick moves they could really be in the thick of things. But what got them to that point? It wasn't trading away all the tallent and trying to make a big splash. It was a serries of smaller moves that in isolation looked insignifcant, but in total has made an impact.
Wayne wasn't perfect, but I prefer his approach to hyperkentic trading just so we can win one world serries and suck for 3 years after that.
Agree 100%. Woke up this morning feeling like yesterdays move may/may not help the Reds but reflected horrably on BCast.
Well, when the standard MO around RZ is to be down about most any Reds transaction, when someone fails, it always leads to an "I told you so".
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No, I'm with you - I was excited the day Walt got the adviser position. Everyone knew it was eventually going to lead to some form of leadership position. The problem for me is this notion that WK didn't provide Cast a winner. To think that this turnaround was going to be a two year process is ludicrous. Despite some of the deficiencies on the current roster, there did seem to be a plan in place. A consistent winner did seem to be on the not too distant horizon.
Just sixty days ago on February 24 an article was posted, they were saying quite a bit of positives that reflected highly on Krivsky, and yesterday they said something completely different.
Just sixty days ago :
“What Jocketty thinks of the job Krivsky has done could decide Krivsky's future with the Reds. Jocketty gives Krivsky high marks so far.
"My first early impression - I told Bob this - I was impressed with the number of quality arms, young arms," Jocketty said. "I think they're very fortunate to have the guys they have. Not just guys we've all been talking about like (Homer) Bailey, (Johnny) Cueto, (Matt) Maloney and (Edinson) Volquez. You look at (Josh) Roenicke and (Marcus) McBeth and some of the other guys. It's impressive.
"I haven't seen the position players that much. But the talent is good. It bodes well for the long-term future of this organization."
Walt, what changed your mind so quickly? If Bob was taking your advice then what happened to your assessment here?
Interesting if you type in Castellini in search what you will find from previous discussions and in print and that many of you were correct long before the final outcomes existed.
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...ght=Castellini
A brain for the Reds' trust
Reds insider: Jocketty's tenure as an adviser is open-ended; Krivsky's may depend on this season
BY JOHN FAY | JFAY@ENQUIRER.COM
SARASOTA, Fla. - When Walt Jocketty was hired, a lot of people assumed that time was ticking on Wayne Krivsky's tenure as Reds general manager.
But six weeks into Jocketty's tenure as special adviser to the president and CEO, Jocketty says it's possible the current arrangement could last well into the future.
"I kind of look at my role as like Gerry Hunsicker has in Tampa Bay: try to help mentor and advise and add whatever input we can," Jocketty said.
Hunsicker, the former Houston GM, is a vice president of baseball operations for the Rays. Andrew Friedman holds a similar title, but he runs the day-to-day operations as a GM.
So Jocketty could stay on in a role between the GM and CEO Bob Castellini.
Whether that GM will be Krivsky depends on what happens this season. Krivsky's in the final year of his contract. This is very much his team.
Castellini is not patient when it comes to winning. The Reds came close to winning in Krivsky's and Castellini's first year when the club went 80-82. The Reds regressed to 72-90 last year.
If the Reds had continued to improve last year, there's a chance that Jocketty would not be here.
But he was available after parting ways with the St. Louis Cardinals after 13 years as GM. Jocketty's tenure included six division titles, two National League pennants and a World Series title.
Castellini knew Jocketty from Castellini's days as a part owner in St. Louis. Castellini says a guy with Jocketty's résumé was too good to pass up, so he created a job for him.
"He's a sounding board, a terrific sounding board," Castellini said. "Baseball is very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses."What Jocketty thinks of the job Krivsky has done could decide Krivsky's future with the Reds. Jocketty gives Krivsky high marks so far.
"My first early impression - I told Bob this - I was impressed with the number of quality arms, young arms," Jocketty said. "I think they're very fortunate to have the guys they have. Not just guys we've all been talking about like (Homer) Bailey, (Johnny) Cueto, (Matt) Maloney and (Edinson) Volquez. You look at (Josh) Roenicke and (Marcus) McBeth and some of the other guys. It's impressive.
"I haven't seen the position players that much. But the talent is good. It bodes well for the long-term future of this organization."
Krivsky inherited Bailey and Cueto, but Krivsky acquired Maloney, Volquez and McBeth in trades. Roenicke was selected in Krivsky's first draft.
Krivsky said his job has not changed since Jocketty came in.
"Not at all," he said. "Certainly I keep Walt informed, so he's in the loop. But I still report directly to Bob."
Jocketty is easing his way into the operation.
"It's different making adjustments when you're in one situation as long as I was," Jocketty said, "then changing and coming over to a new organization. You never know what to expect or anticipate."
He's liked what he's seen.
"I've really been impressed with the people in this organization," he said. "Everyone's treated me well. There's definitely some quality people here in the front office. It's an organization on the move up. They work hard. They made me feel welcome right away, which is important."
Krivsky and Jocketty have spent a lot of time together.
"It's all about communication," Krivsky said. "We've been out to eat a lot - sometimes with a group of people. He wants to know everybody."
The Jocketty-Krivsky relationship is key if this arrangement's going to work.
"I've spent a lot of time with Wayne and I'm trying to help wherever I can with him," he said. "I've been through everything he's going to experience.
"The main thing I'm doing right now - Bob has asked me to observe and offer assistance when I can."
Jocketty will continue to evaluate both the major-league and minor-league operations.
The bottom line of the analysis will be: Can we win?
"Bob wants this organization to be successful as soon as possible," Jocketty said.
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...OL09/802240419
Last edited by Spring~Fields; 04-24-2008 at 08:37 AM.
At this point, I'd prefer AN approach. I'm not sure this FO really has one. End the losing is pretty ambiguous as visions go when it comes to implementation.
Anyway, the point is that it's a little scary to wonder if there is really a plan here. Have we all assumed too much (or to put it another way, does ownership have a clue)?
Last edited by jojo; 04-24-2008 at 08:51 AM.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
And here is where we disagree.
Austin Kearns, at the time of the trade, had lost his starting job to Ryan Freel. The Reds wanted Freel's speed and his "table-setting" abilities in the lineup every day. Dunn and Griffey weren't going to sit, and Krivsky had just brought in Phillips to play 2B. Encarnacion made the team as the 3B out of spring training that year. So that left Freel in the OF, and also left Kearns as the odd man out. It makes no difference that Austin was a former first round pick. His numbers were getting worse by the day, and his trade value was plummeting faster than Hillary Clinton changes hair-do's.
It hurts our pride to admit it, but I seriously doubt any GM in baseball valued Austin Kearns as highly as Reds fans think he should have been valued. And I don't believe a single word of those reports from "anonymous" baseball officials who claim, "We offered a better deal than Bowden." Let's face it, Krivsky traded a 4th OF, a SS who SHOULD have been a bench player, and a "head case" minor league pitcher, for two relief pitchers, whose numbers at the time indicated the Reds were getting immediate help for the bullpen, and a minor league pitcher.
On the day of "The Trade", Majewski had pitched 160+ innings (spread over three years) at the major league level. He had a lifetime 3.28 ERA. I call that "better" than average. His lifetime WHIP at the moment of the trade was 1.38. While a 1.38 WHIP isn't awe-inspiring, it's not too shabby considering that at the same point in his career (2.5 years) Aaron Harang had a lifetime WHIP over 1.77.Actually, Majewski had been had been only average or slightly better than average before the trade and has always lacked the ability to make hitters miss bats in a good ratio the the number of free passes he allowed. Which brings me to the pharse, 'Based on all of the information at his disposal....' This one point stands out like a nudist at an Amish house raising. Krivsky simply failed to do his due diligence. It doesn't matter who he was dealing with, it is a basic when making a trade: get the latest medical records! It may have been a rookie mistake but it was, nonetheless, a major mistake on Krivsky's part and always will be. We'll never know but, had Wayne done the prudent thing maybe 'the trade' would have never been made and things may have turned out better for all concerned. (shrug)
I do agree that Krivsky bears direct responsibility over the medical reports. Sure he should have checked the dates on the reports, But I wouldn't put it past JimBo to "mix up" medical reports in some manner, if he thought it would land him Austin Kearns and FeLo.
“I think I throw the ball as hard as anyone. The ball just doesn't get there as fast.” — Eddie Bane
“We know we're better than this ... but we can't prove it.” — Tony Gwynn
Listening to the presser, it was clear that this move was initiated by Castellini's impatience and not by some negative evaluation from Jocketty. Jocketty only learned it was coming on Tuesday night when he got a phone call from Castellini offering him the job.
/r/reds
Well, not to be snide, but with another loss under our belt, I wonder when the losing is actually going to stop. Is Bob's inpatience going to rear it's head again? Oh well.
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I think that concern is unfounded. The in-game interview he gave on TV showed that he greatly values the farm system. He emphasized setting up this team to win in the longterm and that's exactly what he did in St Louis. They still haven't had a really down year. The only way you win in the longterm is by emphasizing the farm system
I see it the opposite way. Jocketty is the most qualified GM we've had here in a long, long time. In fact he's the first GM we've hired with some experience since the pre Jim Bowden years.
I praise Cast for having the guts to make this tough decision. This team can't afford any more Corey Patterson or Bronson Arroyo contracts...
In all fairness, the improvements Wayne has made have not translated to the W-L record improving, other than 2006. 2007 was a pretty big regression, and I think that's what put Wayne on thin ice. Cast wants to see progress. He doesn't want to see an 80 win team (2006) turn into a 72 win team (2007). Wayne was given one final chance to right the ship, but the team's bad start doomed him. Also, if you analyze this team objectively, it is not even a 500 caliber team.
Wayne brought in some good players, no doubt. He also brought in a bunch of bad ones (or extended bad ones). Let's look at how the team was contructed on the day he left. As the 2008 season started, let's look at the impact Wayne has made, by looking at the net result of his changes?
looking good:
Volquez, Phillips, Cordero, Keppinger
Questionable (might be good, might be bad):
Arroyo, the rest of the bullpen (although some less questionable than others),
Patterson,
Bad:
AGon, 3 catchers, Castro, Stanton
Considering that Cordero is here simply because he went to the highest bidder, Wayne's "Rebuilding" is not that impressive, especially considering that he made many poor decisions that cost a lot of money and extended guys like Freel that shouldn't have been.
I think if Jr was let go and Wayne had another 11 million to spend after this season, he'd probably spend it poorly. Wayne has had plenty of money to play with in the offseason, but made poor choices
I honestly think 2007 sunk Wayne. Last year was a disaster and Wayne didn't give Cast any hope that 2008 would be any better. Wayne had plenty of money and plenty of prospects to trade. I'm not saying he should've raped the farm system, but he could've traded Homer or someone that is in the minors now and improved the offense/defense. That's one of Wayne's biggest faults. He is so focused on getting pitching that he largely ignored the position players. His comment after the trade about how he didn't care about who played SS is very telling.
[Phil ] Castellini celebrated the team's farm system and noted the team had promising prospects who would one day be great Reds -- and then joke then they'd be ex-Reds, saying "of course we're going to lose them". #SellTheTeamBob
Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!
my suspicion has always been that Cast meddled from day 1. Krivsky was brilliant at times, but also made some "now" moves that reeked of pressure from a win-now owner tempered by a GM that wanted to build the infrastructure. Cast was the Whirlpool, and Wayne was the Big Rock. It made for some turbulent navigation.
Didn't like some of the major league relievers that were traded for or signed? Didn't like how quickly a certain wunder-arm was called up? That's not going to change, IMO, because THAT instigator hasn't fired himelf. He gave Krivsky only a 2 year deal, which was goofy, praised a 2006 team that really had no chance, and cut on a 2008 team that's really quite interesting. That guy is staying.
I'm confident that Cast is a guy who would have fired any really good GM that didn't win quickly, from Billy Beane to Mark Shapiro to Branch Freaking Rickey. Joy.
What we've lost is the one that fixed farm, development, rotation, and middle infield in very, VERY short order. I would have given Krivsky more influence, but instead Cast has been increasing his own role since the end of 2006.
A Bruce/Bedard deal probably would have saved his job. THAT'S how goofy things are in Cincinnati.
to me, Krivsky was the right GM for Cincinnati, just not the right GM for Cincinnati's owner.
I know Jocketty very well. Unlike Wayne, he has no skill with the minors. Finding and developing young arms? it's problematic. Like Wayne, he seems to have some people problems, and like Wayne is good at finding undervalued major league talent. however, his Cardinal teams underachieved their talent level for years-- just couldn't win the big one. for years, I started numerous threads on how Cards had the talent again, but would have to fall short because they still lacked heart. Then, Jocketty finally made the big heart acquisition: David Eckstein (a signing that I believe was trashed by all but one poster, moi, who said that at LAST the Cards would win a World Series under Jocketty). oh yes, I know Jocketty well.
So I predict an increase in talent, a pretty good record for a small market, but underachievement and an eventual decay of the farm system that seemed to be getting things together.
he's probably the right GM for this owner. He should last longer. But, you never know.
Last edited by princeton; 04-24-2008 at 09:34 AM.
I think Krivsky gets just a little too much credit for the state of the farm. Just as he's laid the foundation for Jocketty, DanO, and to a lesser extent JimBo laid the foundation for him. Votto was JimBo's pick, Cueto, Bailey and Bruce were DanO picks/acquisitions.
But it was more than that. Dano had some really goofy ideas, take a pitch, tandem starter, but the fact is the major arm issues went down in his two years. A lot of the minor leaguers he acquired, Krivsky traded off for sometimes decent, sometimes not so decent acquisitions. But the fact is he had chips to trade because of DanO and the regimes before him.
That said, while I'm none to pleased with Krivsky's 1st rd. selections, his picks after the first round have been very good. His policies for development of minor leaguers were more refined than DanO's, but netted a similar result in that surgeries again stayed low, and players have begun to thrive under his watch.
I think this whole situation was handled piss-poor.
Dubito Ergo Cogito Ergo Sum.
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