Its' not about who get's the glory. Jocketty's going to ride the coattails of those who came before him when the Reds win. Just as Krivsky would have rode O'Brien's success. It's all about giving credit where it's due. Something that's sorely lacking on RedsZone.Originally Posted by Matt700wlw
"...You just have a wider lens than one game."
--Former Reds GM Wayne Krivsky, on why he didn't fly Josh Hamilton to Colorado for one game.
"...its money well-spent. Don't screw around with your freedom."
--Roy Tucker, on why you need to lawyer up when you find yourself swimming with sharks.
I hope that there's more to this than Castellini's impatience. But I fear that's what caused this. It's April. What could he possibly found out about Krivsky now that he couldn't have figured out by last October?
I wish Wayne well. I didn't agree with everything he did, but he did a lot more good than harm.
Stick to your guns.
So then I assume that you give Krivsky credit for for not checking medical records in the case of 'the trade'. And I assume that you give Krivsky credit for giving out overpriced, overextended contracts like Stanton, Castro and Freel. And I assume that you give Krivsky credit for bidding against himself as recently as 8 weeks ago by giving Corey Patterson $3M when he was sitting at home with no one else wanting his services.
I'm not seeing a real good learning curve there.
There are two sides of the ledger in any accounting.
Rem
Your points are superb, but Krivsky did do some astonishingly good things:
-He brought the Reds farm system from a 27th BA ranking to 4th in MLB in only two years.
-He acquired Hamilton (and in turn Volquez) and Brandon Phillips for almost nothing. Their value alone more than offsets the Castro, Stanton, and Freel money combined.
-He stole a top closer from a division rival. Not easy to do in this world of loose lips.
Yet, I think he had to go for this one reason: when charged with patching a specific hole in the team immediately during the season, he was unable to effectively go out and get the players to do so. The Reds are at a stage where they can make a run at the division and they need their deficiencies dealt with in short order. Good call by Castellini.
"Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill
I haven't posted anything up until now, but put me in the group of "shocked."  Literally, it's the last thing I would've expected to see.  I honestly had to make sure I was awake when I read it. 
Truthfully, I don't like the move, at least not at this juncture.  It just doesn't make sense to me.  I guess I can't say that completely, since it was clear that Walt was his guy all along.  Unfortunately, I don't think Krivsky was given a fair shot to fail or to succeed.  He inherited a really awful team.  It's almost like he cursed himself because he struck lightning in a bottle his first year and nearly took the Reds to the playoffs.  The arc wasn't built over night and to have a winner immediately (given how bad of shape the organization was in) was just not realistic unless you wanted to wipe out the farm system.
People can debate the moves he made and whether the good outweighed the bad in terms of both personnel and contracts, but the one thing I noticed is it did seem like Krivsky began to make smarter decisions the further he got into his tenure.  I didn't think any of the moves he had made this last offseason were bad at all, and yes, that includes signing Fogg.  He was signed before spring training started and nobody could've predicted the emergence of the youngsters.  Patterson may have been overpaid, but I seriously doubt he would've taken a contract for $500K (I don't even think with union rules that would've been possible anyhow).  Don't get me wrong though, Krivsky wasn't perfect.  He seemingly struggled to assemble much of a bullpen and was often times weak at assessing (and fixing) immediate problems.  I think one of the things that may be overlooked the most about Krivsky was what he did with trades.  Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make.  He was getting blasted a lot during the offseason for not picking up another starting pitcher, but it seemed like in all scenarios, the pricetag was astronomical and now all of a sudden, it was looking like he made the right choice. 
I do think this move is going to have a pretty big impact on BCast's legacy in Cincinnati.  It's either going to look really smart or really stupid.  We won't know for quite some time, but it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.   There's no doubt that Walt is a smart guy and has credibility, but the big question is, what will he do differently to produce a winning product?  Is he going to mortgage the farm to put a winner on the field now? 
Lastly, the proper people are rarely (if ever) credited for their work.  Jimbo drafted Votto, Kullman and (the guy is escaping me) traded for Harang, DanO drafted Bailey and Bruce, Krivsky signed a lot of players as well...the current roster (and farm system) really has been a collaborative effort between a lot of people.
Last edited by fearofpopvol1; 04-24-2008 at 03:29 AM.
Jocketty changed his answer from I want some time to regroup to yes I'll take the job. IMO that explains the timing and the reason for the change. All the rest of this makes for a nice retrospective, but the impetus of change was Cast wanted Jocketty or some other familiar name all along and was just biding his time with WK until one came available that would agree to take the job.
As for WK, I continue to believe that he is a really good scout who can seek out and target undervalued talent and bring it in under the radar. That talent has moved the franchise forward immensely. Guys like Phillips, Hamilton (i.e. Volquez), Keppinger etc have solidified the foundation. But that does not make him a good GM IMO. A GM's primary job is to put a team together. The on-going saga of the bullpen and the mis-cast collection of pieces on this team's bench are examples of his problems with assembly. I'd love to see him stay on with the authority to do what he does best, but I'm glad we have a proven team builder as the actual GM at this point.
All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!
Josh Hamilton cost the Reds $50,000 and a spot on the 25 man roster that essentially was open due to a lack of talent.
Volquez cost the Reds Josh Hamilton.
That's two dramatically different equations and frankly, I have no idea how Bob C runs his vegetable business successfully if he truly believes his statement from yesterday's presser concerning the cost of acquiring Volquez.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
Saw Jocketty on TV during the game. He talked again about delegating a lot. As others have pointed out, he doesn't seem ready to work his a** off like Krivsky did. Let's not forget that just a few months ago he called GMing a young man's job. We'll see, but I suspect this new regime will feature a big splashy move or two, but won't do the grunt work to supplement with undervalued talent (the rule Vers, the extra kid in trades, the waiver wire), leaving the organization poorer in the long run. Hope I'm wrong.
It looks like he'll be the face of the FO but not necessarily the one you'd call to get things done if you're in an opposing FO.
It's a curious decision from the outside looking in....
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
The irony would be if we play whatever club Krivsky ends up with next.
I'm beginning to believe that this was an impetuous move on Castellini's part, although an earlier poster noted that if Castellini had his mind made up not to return Krivsky next year, it's better to cut loose now and have the succeeding regime in than to leave Krivsky hobbled as a lame duck GM. That said, I think Castellini's own words don't haunt him (and he looked haunted yesterday). He said, "I hope inpatient isn't imprudent."
Almost Shakespearan or from a Greek tragedy, no?
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Who is gonna kick Cast's booty? As far as I'm concerned, as the owner, he is solely responsible for this situation. So why is he getting a free pass as if all this is WK's fault?
He HIRED Krivsky
Dusty Baker was Bob's choice, not WK's.
Bob had nothing to do, no involvement (giving his OK) to even those bad deals/trades that turned awry?
I'm not saying the GM doesn't carry any culpibility. Wayne certainly does. And there are probably several sound reasons to justify his firing. The timing really sucked. Totally classless of this owner who sites his impatience as the sole reason IMO. But I'm also tired of an owner who keeps saying he's tired of losing, want's to win now (which seems to appease some), and as far as I'm concerned is the main culprit.
Ya gotta have your scapegoat I guess.
We all pretty much knew that when Jocketty was brought in as a "special advisor" that Wayne's days were numbered.
They hired a BIG NAME manager, and now have their BIG NAME GM. I'm really impressed.
Symbolism over substance as far as I'm concerned.
There were sound reasons as to why these two were FIRED from their previous jobs. They had no farm system in St. Louis, and Jocketty acknowledges that this is an area where he has no expertise, and is a weakness. Yes, that is a concern for me. He's the type of guy that, IMHO, will trade away any future we have, even if it is a Jay Bruce, as long as it mets Bob C's vision of WIN NOW.
Thank God I didn't buy any ticket packages this year. I have a feeling it's gonna get ugly.
I wonder how much impatience Bob will have with the "Walt and Dusty Show"?
When Castellini speaks from now on I am going to get my hip boots and waders on before I accept his words.
"We're just not going to lose anymore," Castellini said Wednesday.”
Really Bob ?
Are you an impatient man Bob?
Why is Fogg and Patterson still on your team Bob along with any other dead wood?
Bob you cleaned house yesterday but you left the clutter, chaff and fodder on your roster why?
Bob everybody along with the good and bad underneath you on the organizational chart is your responsibility.
The lack of talent, the wasting of financial resources on bad contracts, Bob, those fall back on your shoulders, where have you been Bob, have you had your head stuck in a cabbage somewhere Bob?
Bob you said Narron was doing a great job, Bob you said that Krivsky was doing a great job, Bob you fired them both, Bob you said that Mac was doing a good job. Bob your words lack credibility.
Bob your words aren't in sync with what has happened and with what is occurring and the results all along.
Last edited by Spring~Fields; 04-24-2008 at 07:29 AM.
I've said this for a long time - I think Krivsky's insistence on level by level advancement would be in the longterm interest to the Reds and their player development. It was maddening I know with the masses clamoring for "win now, at all costs", but we were going to be better served by our players having success along each level of play. I fear that philosphy's bags are packed and at the station.
“In the same way that a baseball season never really begins, it never really ends either.” - Lonnie Wheeler, "Bleachers, A Summer in Wrigley Field"
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http://tscsales.blogspot.com/
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That very well could be true regressing back to the days of Marge and Bowden where the minor league system was left in a state that led and brought the Reds to where they are today. A mess that Bowden could not cleanup in years, a mess that O’Brien and Krivsky could not cleanup in a day.
Last edited by Spring~Fields; 04-24-2008 at 07:40 AM.
In Wayne's defense, bullpen pitching is among the most mercurial commodities in baseball. Washed-out starters can become high leverage relievers overnight, high-leverage relievers can look like softball pitchers a year later.
It often makes no sense whatsoever -- which is why Gary Majewski has a 10+ ERA in Louisville while Mike Lincoln, who hadn't thrown a baseball professionally in 4 years, is retiring hitters in the bigs.
Cincinnati Reds: Farm System Champions 2022
My biggest fear of The Jock is he will raid the farm system to get a few big names, we'll be in the thick of things for a few years and then we'll come crashing back to earth for another strech of time. The unreasonable "win now" people will be happy.....of coruse, until we hit the rough patch when the cubbard runs dry.
Maybe my fears are totally unjustified and based on antidote rather than fact. But in general, I'd rather stick with the slow rebuliding resulting in a decades long run than ending up like the White Sox.
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