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Thread: Doc sez Krivsky FIRED!

  1. #601
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Jan 2004

    Re: Doc sez Krivsky FIRED!

    Walt Jocketty should bring October baseball back to Cincinnati
    April 23, 2008

    Richard Justice

    Wednesday was a good day for the Cincinnati Reds. They didn't just hire a new general manager. They hired one of baseball's most successful general managers.

    Walt Jocketty has both credibility and a terrific track record. Years from now, that's the part of the story people will remember. Departing GM Wayne Krivsky might have had his feelings hurt, but that's going to happen when franchises are rebuilt.

    Mark it on your calendar. This is going to be remembered as the day the Reds began their climb back to prominence.

    The Reds desperately needed stability, and now with Bob Castellini as CEO, Dusty Baker as manager and Jocketty as GM, they've got it. In the last six years, they've had four general managers, four managers and two owners.

    Now the pieces are in place. The St. Louis Cardinals went to the playoffs seven times in 12 years with Jocketty in charge. He acquired or developed the core players on two National League championship teams, one of which won the World Series.

    He didn't do a great job in player development, but by getting Chris Carpenter, Larry Walker and others for almost nothing, he did his job.

    He was stripped of some of his power after the Cardinals won the 2006 World Series, and his departure seemed a foregone conclusion.

    Castellini, who had once been part of the ownership group in St. Louis, brought in Jocketty as a consultant last January.

    Some of Jocketty's closest friends swear he didn't want to be GM; rather, he wanted to help Krivsky any way he could.

    Problem is, Krivsky apparently saw Jocketty as a threat no matter how many people tried to tell him he was anything but. Krivsky seldom sought Jocketty's advice, and he froze him out of the decision-making process.

    Krivsky did some good things for Cincinnati before his firing. He made nice deals to acquire Bronson Arroyo, Brandon Phillips and Edinson Volquez. He was methodically rebuilding the farm system.

    He also made plenty of mistakes. In the end, those mistakes did him in. He signed Rheal Cormier and Mike Stanton and ended up paying them $6.5 million not to pitch.

    He gave Corey Patterson $3 million even though Patterson was out of work and probably would have signed for the minimum. He overpaid Ryan Freel and Josh Fogg, as well.

    His $46-million deal for Francisco Cordero may end up being a bad signing.

    Bad contracts could have been forgiven if the Reds had been winning, but the team looked like it was headed toward its eighth straight losing season when the axe fell of Krivsky.

    Plenty of baseball people were glad to see Krivsky get the chance to be a general manager. He was a grassroots baseball man, working his way up the ladder with the Rangers and Twins.

    He had contacts and years of institutional knowledge. What he didn't have and might never have was the credibility that Jocketty brings to any discussion with other general managers.

    Jocketty and Tony La Russa were the perfect team in St. Louis. Around this time last year, some baseball insiders believed both would end up working for Castellini in Cincinnati. But La Russa re-signed with the Cardinals, and Dusty Baker got the Reds' managerial job.

    Now Jocketty is being given the task of resurrecting baseball in one of America's best baseball cities. At the moment, the Reds don't have enough hitting or pitching.

    They do have two premier prospects in outfielder Jay Bruce and lefthander Homer Bailey. Jocketty's track record says he will succeed. There aren't many things better than October baseball in Cincinnati -- and it's going to return.

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  3. #602
    Member redsrule2500's Avatar
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    Mar 2001
    Cincinnati, OH

    Re: Doc sez Krivsky FIRED!

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Because he cried?
    No. I never thought it was good. But that DOES show that he cared deeply for this position, so his motivation and enthusiasm shouldn't be questioned at this point IMO.
    Go Reds!
    “I’m a normal guy blessed with the ability to hit a baseball.” - Sean Casey

  4. #603
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Southwest Ohio

    Re: Doc sez Krivsky FIRED!

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    Who is gonna kick Cast's booty? As far as I'm concerned, as the owner, he is solely responsible for this situation. So why is he getting a free pass as if all this is WK's fault?

    He HIRED Krivsky
    Dusty Baker was Bob's choice, not WK's.
    Bob had nothing to do, no involvement (giving his OK) to even those bad deals/trades that turned awry?

    I'm not saying the GM doesn't carry any culpibility. Wayne certainly does. And there are probably several sound reasons to justify his firing. The timing really sucked. Totally classless of this owner who sites his impatience as the sole reason IMO. But I'm also tired of an owner who keeps saying he's tired of losing, want's to win now (which seems to appease some), and as far as I'm concerned is the main culprit.

    Ya gotta have your scapegoat I guess.

    We all pretty much knew that when Jocketty was brought in as a "special advisor" that Wayne's days were numbered.

    They hired a BIG NAME manager, and now have their BIG NAME GM. I'm really impressed.

    Symbolism over substance as far as I'm concerned.

    There were sound reasons as to why these two were FIRED from their previous jobs. They had no farm system in St. Louis, and Jocketty acknowledges that this is an area where he has no expertise, and is a weakness. Yes, that is a concern for me. He's the type of guy that, IMHO, will trade away any future we have, even if it is a Jay Bruce, as long as it mets Bob C's vision of WIN NOW.

    Thank God I didn't buy any ticket packages this year. I have a feeling it's gonna get ugly.

    I wonder how much impatience Bob will have with the "Walt and Dusty Show"?
    Pretty much my sentiments, exactly.

    It's not even the "crown jewels" I'm concerned about, as much as I am guys like Todd Frazier, Juan Fransisco, Danny Dorn, and others, who will probably be sacrificed on the altar of "Win Now." Obviously, none of those players are Jay Bruce like prospects and never will be. But they do provide a solid pipeline that eases the constant need of trades and free agents. What good will it do to trade them to bring in players who may or may not perform up to expectations?

    Everyone blasts Krivsky over "The Trade." But for the life of me I cannot figure out what the Reds actally lost when they gave up Kerns, Lopez, and Wagner. We act like Krivisky traded away Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas. I don't want to rehash that trade or beat a dead horse. Let's just say neither team got what they expected. And I think Bray and Thompson will eventually cause us to ask, "Austin Who?" Based on all the information at his disposal, Krivsky felt it was logical to assume that Majewski would at least maintain his level of pitching - which had been very good for the Expos/Nationals. But Krivsky was wrong.

    Now here's my concern. Jocketty will trade off all the depth the Reds have gathered in the minor leagues in order to bring in players he assumes will maintain their level of play. He will use pretty much the same criteria to guage talent as Krivsky (except he might treat his advisors a little nicer in the process). But the end result is he depletes the farm system by bringing in other players - like Majewski - who, on paper, should help this team, but who very probably will fail to live up to their billing. As a fan, that is unacceptable.

    I would rather see this team struggle through a year or two of growing pains by home grown talent, than to see the talent traded away in return for players that other teams are trying to unload.

    There was reason Walt Jocketty was let go in St. Louis, and it stemmed directly to his disagreements with Jeff Luhnow, who was trying to bring a more analytical approach to player development in the Cardinals' organization. It is also significant that the new GM is John Mozeliak, who already had leanings towards analytical philosophy of development. And one of the finalist for the job was Chris Antonelli, who is about as sabermetric as they come.

    All Castellini has accomplished with this move is that he has replaced the captain of the Titanic with a different captain. And the new captain still wants to go through the same ice field.
    “I think I throw the ball as hard as anyone. The ball just doesn't get there as fast.” — Eddie Bane

    “We know we're better than this ... but we can't prove it.” — Tony Gwynn

  5. #604
    Bat Flippin’ Awesome Puig Your Red's Avatar
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    Oct 2003

    Re: Doc sez Krivsky FIRED!

    Quote Originally Posted by redsrule2500 View Post
    No. I never thought it was good. But that DOES show that he cared deeply for this position, so his motivation and enthusiasm shouldn't be questioned at this point IMO.
    Who questioned either of those characteristics?
    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    A little bit off topic, but do you guys think that Jesse Winker profiles more like Pete Rose or is he just the next Hal Morris??

  6. #605
    Little Reds BandWagon Reds Nd2's Avatar
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    Jun 2003

    Re: Doc sez Krivsky FIRED!

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Ronny Cedeno

    As I said, I'm going on recollection here.
    I'm not. I'd take Brandon Phillips over both of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    I just don't think his extension was warranted. Which is a perfectly defensible position.
    Ok. Why?

    08:$2.75M, 09:$4.75M, 10:$6.75M, 11:$11M, 12:$12M club option ($1M buyout)

    What's so bad about that for a 26 year old who is among the top two defensive 2B in the NL?
    "...You just have a wider lens than one game."
    --Former Reds GM Wayne Krivsky, on why he didn't fly Josh Hamilton to Colorado for one game.

    "...its money well-spent. Don't screw around with your freedom."
    --Roy Tucker, on why you need to lawyer up when you find yourself swimming with sharks.

  7. #606
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Jun 2004
    West Virginia

    Re: Doc sez Krivsky FIRED!

    Castellini's impatience doomed Krivsky
    Wednesday, April 23, 2008, 06:36 PM EST [Reds]

    Hours after being told he was no longer the general manager of the Cincinnati Reds, Wayne Krivsky's eyes were red and he spoke slowly and chose his words carefully.

    He'd fought for an hour to keep his job earlier in the day, but it was not enough. In the end, there was one unwavering truth -- Reds owner Bob Castellini is not a patient man.

    "Bob will admit he's an impatient person," Krivsky said.

    But Castellini is in a patient man's game. Unlike vegetables that can be counted on to product based on a yearly cycle, baseball teams and organizations take longer to cultivate.

    Wayne Krivsky is a patient man, Bob Castellini is not.

    "We're just not going to lose anymore," Castellini said Wednesday.

    That is Castellini's will. His way was to replace Krivsky with Walt Jocketty, who led the St. Louis Cardinals to six division titles, a Wild Card, two National League pennants and the 2006 World Series.

    Krivsky was perhaps naïve enough to believe Castellini when he hired Jocketty as a special advisor to advise and assist Castellini in baseball operations that his job wasn't on the line. In fact, it was. Everyone else saw it, but Krivsky refused to read the writing on the wall, listening only to what was said.

    "Bob had talked to me about next year, after the season, kind of easing my way into working again," Jocketty said. "Possibly being president of baseball operations at the end of the year. That was something we'd consider. He asked me last night if I was willing to do it now."

    Instead of looking over his shoulder and mortgaging the future for the 2008 season and his job, Krivsky went on building an organization the only way he knew how.

    "You think about the present and you can have a mandate to win this year, but I never lose sight of the long term," Krivsky said. "I didn't do things here to save my job short term. I wasn't going to do that. In my mind, I was going to be here a long time. … I wasn't going to do anything to hurt the organization long term to save my rear for one year."

    Krivsky took over a team that hadn't had a winning season since 2001, but didn't have a winning record in either of his first two seasons. Although Castellini said when Krivsky was hired in 2006 that he wanted to use the Minnesota Twins, an organization Krivsky had deep ties with, as a model. In Minnesota, Terry Ryan was able to build the Twins and with the patience of six losing seasons to start his tenure.

    Castellini may have liked the end result of the Twins model, but in the end, he couldn't deal with the sacrifice in the here and now required to put in the infrastructure Ryan built in Minnesota.

    "I don't think anybody in the organization is happy with the results on a won-loss basis," Castellini said. "We've had two losing seasons under our new ownership and we started out this season poorly on a win-loss basis. That's the primary reason we made the change."

    So, after an 8-12 start -- Castellini said he’d made the decision before Tuesday’s victory over the Dodgers -- the owner's patience ran short and Krivsky was outed.

    n his tenure, Krivsky nearly turned over the roster completely. The only starting position players from before Krivsky's tenure are Ken Griffey Jr., Adam Dunn and Edwin Encarnacion. Joey Votto was in the minor league system before Krivsky's hiring, but was brought through under Krivsky's watch. Aaron Harang, Matt Belisle and Johnny Cueto are the only pitchers in the rotation not acquired by Krivsky, and the outgoing general manager signed Harang to a long-term deal under market value. Cueto, like Votto, was acquired by the Dan O'Brien regime, but came throughout he system under Krivsky. The bullpen's only non-Krivsky acquisition is David Weathers.

    Krivsky acquired Brandon Phillips, last season's team MVP, for Jeff Stevens. He traded Bobby Basham for David Ross. He acquired Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena. He acquired Kyle Lohse for Zach Ward and later Matt Maloney for Lohse. He also traded Russ Haltiwanger for Jeff Keppinger. He selected Josh Hamilton and Jared Burton in the Rule 5 draft and turned Hamilton around for Edinson Volquez.

    His most controversial move came in July of 2006, when the Reds sent Felipe Lopez, Austin Kearns and Ryan Wagner to the Washington Nationals for Gary Majewski, Bill Bray, Royce Clayton, Brendan Harris and Daryl Thompson. While roundly viewed as a fleecing by former Reds GM and current National GM Jim Bowden, time has made it a wash, and could even go in the Reds' favor as Bray has been impressive when injury-free and Thompson has currently tearing up the Southern League.

    Perhaps the biggest criticisms of Krivsky recently have come from his contract extensions. He signed Mike Stanton to a two-year $5.5 million deal before the 2006 season. He gave Ryan Freel a two-year $7 million extension last season and Juan Castro a two-year, $2 million contract. He also signed Arroyo to a two-year extension for $25 million.

    Any perceived loss can be noted by the savings of the four-year, $36.5 million extension to Harang, which is very low compared to other No. 1 starters in a similar position as Harang.

    Krivsky was also often criticized for the extension of left-hander Rheal Cormier, but the Reds received $2.08 million in cash to pay Cormier from the A's in the trade that sent Chris Denorfia to Oakland and netted Cincinnati reliever Marcus McBeth.

    "I challenge anybody, you put the acquisitions in one column and what we gave up in the other and you tell me it's not a freakin' slam dunk the job that was done here," Krivsky said. "It's not just Wayne Krivsky, it's on my ledger. You want to talk contracts? I'll talk contracts with you. Mike Stanton? And I love Mike Stanton, but it didn't work out. That one's on me. Rheal Cormier, that one got covered, we got a whole bunch of money (from the A's in the Chris Denorfia deal) that covered that. I'm not the type of person that's going to brag we got seven figures on that. I'll walk out of here feeling proud that I stayed true to myself and what I'm all about."

    When asked about immediate moves to make the Reds better, Jocketty said he didn't know of anything right away, but he left the spring feeling good about the team's chances to compete, and still does, even with the current makeup.

    "I felt when we started the season we had a club that could be a contending club and this division is winnable," Jocketty said.

    Usually when the executives like the club that is put on the field and not the way that club is playing, the general manager is praised and the field manager is fired. But Dusty Baker is just 21 games into his Reds tenure and was the high-profile manager Castellini craved, so he's too new to get the blame. Instead, the ax fell on Krivsky.

    "At the end of the day, I wish a larger perspective was taken on the whole body of work that's been done here rather than the 9-12 record or whatever led to the thinking of being let go today," Krivsky said.

    But with Bob Castellini's promises to win and win now, the only perspective that matters is his and its judged solely on the wins and losses as of today, not the entire health of the organization. Castellini, Jocketty and Baker may talk about the importance of continuity, but because of that impatience, not only is Wayne Krivsky out of a job, but the Cincinnati Reds’ organization is looking at yet another change in direction, including interim GMs, they are now on their sixth since Great American Ball Park opened in 2003.

    "I've got to respect the decision, but I disagree with it strongly," Krivsky said. "I think I'm the right guy for this. I have a lot of confidence in my ability and the staff I've put in here. I'm proud of what I've done here."


  8. #607
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Jun 2004
    West Virginia

    Re: Doc sez Krivsky FIRED!

    Huge props and thanks to Wayne Krivsky for not folding to the pressure and dealing away the future for a quick fix. Thank for sticking to your guns and not mortgaging the future by trading Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto for Erik Bedard or Joe Blanton. By not doing that, the future now looks very, very bright in Cincy. It's a shame he won't be here to enjoy that.

  9. #608
    Smooth WMR's Avatar
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    Apr 2005
    Lexington, Kentucky

    Re: Doc sez Krivsky FIRED!

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Huge props and thanks to Wayne Krivsky for not folding to the pressure and dealing away the future for a quick fix. Thank for sticking to your guns and not mortgaging the future by trading Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto for Erik Bedard or Joe Blanton. By not doing that, the future now looks very, very bright in Cincy. It's a shame he won't be here to enjoy that.
    I wonder if trading one of our most valued chips would have saved his job?

    Pretty honorable of the guy to do what he thought would be best for the Reds in the long-term even at the expense of his own job security.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"

  10. #609
    Pitter Patter TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Doc sez Krivsky FIRED!

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.
    I've seen Kinsler a lot. He's not in BP's class at all. Neither is Cano. BP is as good as Utley.
    Use a Cocktail Stick!

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