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Thread: 7/16/11 - Reds vs Cardinals

  1. #241
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: 7/16/11 - Reds vs Cardinals

    There are millions of possible scenarios that can occur in a baseball game and many different ways, philosophies and proven methods of handling them successfully. The actual probabilities of such events are only fractionally different in the micro, so much so that haggling over the choice of one method or another is not only a narrow view of how things work, but probably not even always statistically accurate if we could truly measure all the variables involved in the decision.

    If it were simple as knowing exactly what is the best decision and what wasn't, we would just play a computer simulation and be done with it.

    However, we're dealing with very unpredictable variables. Variables that are humans and not computer models.

    The funny thing is that to prove someone did indeed make a "bad" decision to bat someone second in a given game, even statistically, they'd have to run probability for all the possible outcomes and possible alternatives. That's neither practical and only possible with a supercomputer, I imagine. After all, the difference between Renteria's OBP and the other options is no more than 3-4%. And that doesn't include the other important variables such as who's pitching and other circumstances within the game itself which could, theoretically, make Renteria the statistically sound choice in *some* situations. And since each game and each situation is its stand-alone event, that's what really matters...optimizing the situations themselves.

    To make any definitive judgments about the quality of a decision in a single game or small subset of games is narrow and oversimplifying matters. We're really debating, in this thread, literally fractions of percentage points in some cases.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda


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  3. #242
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: 7/16/11 - Reds vs Cardinals

    What were debating is the merits of a philosophy that has led to the taveras' of the world getting significant ABs in the two hole in dusty's lineups....
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  4. #243
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: 7/16/11 - Reds vs Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    What were debating is the merits of a philosophy that has led to the taveras' of the world getting significant ABs in the two hole in dusty's lineups....
    And as I said, the percentage differences between doing so and not doing so are so miniscule it's silly to worry about in a small sample. Three or four percent is the difference between Renteria and the other options for that spot. That's not even taking into account the other variables that would need to be considered to measure the soundness of such a decision.

    Just for context of what I'm saying:

    Renteria is 10th among regulars on the team in OBP (excluding pitchers and Cozart). Yet, the difference between Joey Votto and Ramon Hernandez (who is second on the team in OBP) is greater than the difference between Ramon and Renteria who is 10th. Of all guys in the lineup Saturday night, the difference between Votto and Ramon was nearly double than that of Renteria and the second-best OBP in the entire lineup.
    Last edited by Brutus; 07-16-2011 at 11:52 PM.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  5. #244
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    Re: 7/16/11 - Reds vs Cardinals

    For the record, according to Baseball Musing's Lineup Analysis, today's lineup would average 4.345 runs a game or 703 runs a season.

    Switching Renteria with Heisey would produce a lineup that would average 4.367 runs a game or 707 runs a season.

    Now, the big problem with complaining about lineups is that a team usually uses around 100 or so different lineups a season, so the statistical advantage rarely has a chance to actually show up. Luck or randomness has a much greater influence over the success of a lineup than the actual construction of the lineup, as evident by Renteria getting two hits today.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769024

  6. #245
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    Re: 7/16/11 - Reds vs Cardinals

    The discussion in this thread about line-ups and all is interesting, my two cents is that Renteria played well so it didn't have much impact on this game. This was more about championship caliber players rising up when the team needs them. Last night the Cards took a tough loss that had the potential to send them into a tailspin. Instead their star pitcher came out and shut the Reds down and their star position player hit a three run homer. Game over.
    Last edited by mth123; 07-17-2011 at 03:11 AM.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

  7. #246
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    Re: 7/16/11 - Reds vs Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    The discussion in this thread about line-ups and all is interesting, my two cents is that Renteria played well so it didn't have much impact on this game. This was more about championship caliber players rising up when the team needs them. Last night the Cards took a tough loss that had the potential to send them into a tailspin. Instead their star pitcher came out and shut the Reds down and their star position player hit a three run homer. Game over.
    Yep. Have to hand it to the Cards in this game. It's why I never count them out or take them lightly.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769024

  8. #247
    Goober GAC's Avatar
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    Re: 7/16/11 - Reds vs Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Red in Chicago View Post
    The base running is Horrible tonight
    It's been pretty bad all year. Such stupid mental blunders that little league coaches wouldn't tolerate from their kids.

    But we simply can't seem to capitalize with runners on base. I'm telling you, one of our biggest problems is at the clean-up position.

    A .243/.313/.372/.685 line is simply terrible from that spot. Well below league average.
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

  9. #248
    Member Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: 7/16/11 - Reds vs Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    It's been pretty bad all year. Such stupid mental blunders that little league coaches wouldn't tolerate from their kids.

    But we simply can't seem to capitalize with runners on base. I'm telling you, one of our biggest problems is at the clean-up position.

    A .243/.313/.372/.685 line is simply terrible from that spot. Well below league average.
    The Reds are the best baserunning team in the NL per fangraphs.

  10. #249
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    Re: 7/16/11 - Reds vs Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    The Reds are the best baserunning team in the NL per fangraphs.
    Not when it comes to stealing bases they're not.

  11. #250
    Member Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: 7/16/11 - Reds vs Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    Not when it comes to stealing bases they're not.
    That is not the only aspect of baserunning.

  12. #251
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    Re: 7/16/11 - Reds vs Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    That is not the only aspect of baserunning.

    Do you think I don't know that? I did not say they were bad overall in other aspects of base running. But obviously when it comes to stealing bases, they are not very good.


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