One GM Says Angels Should Take CoCo

[flyer85]

2 year deal given to one of the historically worst full-time players. Resigning Mike Lincoln and JHJ.

Yeah, it absolutely IS all Bob's fault.

It shouyld not be surprising that fishing in the toilet bowl results in catching turds.

[nate]

It shouyld not be surprising that fishing in the toilet bowl results in catching turds.

That sure paints a picture!

[edabbs44]

We were talking about Cordero and how enough wasn't done to put a team around him. That required money. Bob C didn't spend it.

Bob C gave enough money to lock up Harang and Arroyo. That was some serius coin. Maybe things would be different if Arroyo wasn't extended, was dealt while his value was high and had a cheap contract and the money was used on another position. Maybe. And that would have needed zero of Bob's money that he isn't spending.

If he's the owner, then yeah, it most certainly is. And he's too big a doofus to not go out and get "his guy" (the great, experienced Walt Jocketty) in the first place then yeah, it IS his fault.

2 year deal given to one of the historically worst full-time players. Resigning Mike Lincoln and JHJ.

Yeah, it absolutely IS all Bob's fault.

To be honest, I am disappointed. The team is in a bad place. Awful. But I really think that the continued harping on the Taveras/Lincoln/JHJ trio is pretty needless. These guys aren't destroying the team. The $6MM or whatever they are making this season really doesn't make a difference in the grand scheme. The team needed to be gutted a few years ago but the Bob/WK duo wanted to win now, so they spent money foolishly. And now they are paying the price. Walt can't give these guys away and, even though some would like to see Bob go all in to try and win without a plan, that's not the best business move if the revenue isn't there. That's how you go under. Ask Arizona.

[M2]

You can't gut a team by adding or keeping talent. You gut it by giving away talent while receiving none in return. It's nonsensical to say Krivsky "gutted" the team by signing a quality closer. Forget about that statement making no sense in baseball terms, it's bad English.

[nate]

Bob C gave enough money to lock up Harang and Arroyo. That was some serius coin.Maybe things would be different if Arroyo wasn't extended, was dealt while his value was high and had a cheap contract and the money was used on another position. Maybe. And that would have needed zero of Bob's money that he isn't spending.

Bob didn't have to OK it. Nor did he have to OK Willy Taveras.

To be honest, I am disappointed. The team is in a bad place. Awful. But I really think that the continued harping on the Taveras/Lincoln/JHJ trio is pretty needless.

I think your continued one-note samba about Harang/Arroyo/Cordero is pretty needless too. Yet, it continues.

I mean, at least that trio can be considered net average to above average in positions of great need for the Reds. The light from Taveras/Lincoln/JHJ's "production" is so far away, even Carl Sagan couldn't have conecptualized it. Further, they were signed to play positions that didn't really need filling.

So while Arroyo/Harang/Cordero might seem overpaid, they at least have produced in a position of need for the Reds.

Hairston/Taveras/Lincoln, not so much.

These guys aren't destroying the team.

Nor are Arroyo/Harang/Cordero. What's destroying the current team is injuries, a lack of acceptable backups and absolutely no offense. And guess who leads off the majority of the time? The historically bad Willy Taveras.

The $6MM or whatever they are making this season really doesn't make a difference in the grand scheme.

So on one hand, Bob's hands are tied by this "serious coin" given to the aforementioned players. But $6mm given to one of the worst regulars in baseball's entire history somehow doesn't make a difference?

I disagree.

The team needed to be gutted a few years ago but the Bob/WK duo wanted to win now, so they spent money foolishly.

They did and Walt hasn't shown that the foolish money spending is going to magically stop.

And now they are paying the price. Walt can't give these guys away and, even though some would like to see Bob go all in to try and win without a plan,

No one has said to "go all in to try and win without a plan."

Silly argument.

that's not the best business move if the revenue isn't there.

Keeping a step ahead of the Pirates, if we can, isn't much of a business plan either.

[edabbs44]

Nor are Arroyo/Harang/Cordero. What's destroying the current team is injuries, a lack of acceptable backups and absolutely no offense. And guess who leads off the majority of the time? The historically bad Willy Taveras.

45ish% of the payroll on a closer and 2 guys with ERAs hovering in the 5 range all year is a bigger problem than the $2MM given to Taveras this year.

Look at it this way..if you could have one of the two situations on your hands for 2009 (and 2009 only), which would you want?

a) Taveras and $33MM to spend on 3 players
b) Harang, Arroyo and Cordero and $2MM to spend on 2 players

I am taking choice "a" and cutting Taveras one second after choosing.

So on one hand, Bob's hands are tied by this "serious coin" given to the aforementioned players. But $6mm given to one of the worst regulars in baseball's entire history somehow doesn't make a difference?

$2MM this year for Taveras isn't handcuffing the team. It is definitely money wasted, but I don't think anyone should view his contract as being a difference maker.

[edabbs44]

Bob didn't have to OK it. Nor did he have to OK Willy Taveras.

If Bob needs to OK a move like Taveras', then Walt needs to quit asap. Walt should be making those calls on his own.

[flyer85]

$2MM this year for Taveras isn't handcuffing the team. It is definitely money wasted, but I don't think anyone should view his contract as being a difference maker.

it's the fact that giving him the ABs is like paying someone to keep kicking you in the nuts.

[traderumor]

it's the fact that giving him the ABs is like paying someone to keep kicking you in the nuts...

...without a cup on

[edabbs44]

it's the fact that giving him the ABs is like paying someone to keep kicking you in the nuts.

Yep. But this discussion has been around money.

Cut the guy and you would have a better offense, a disgruntled manager and a 90% decrease in Willy noise on RedsZone.

Three wins, if you ask me.

[nate]

45ish% of the payroll on a closer and 2 guys with ERAs hovering in the 5 range all year is a bigger problem than the $2MM given to Taveras this year.

Wayne signed:

2009
Arroyo ERA+: 94
Harang ERA+: 103
Cordero ERA+: 255

In their total tenure with the Reds:

Arroyo ERA+: 110
Harang ERA+: 107
Cordero ERA+: 166

Walt signed:

2009
Taveras OPS+: 47
Hairston OPS+: 81
Lincoln ERA+: 54
Weathers ERA+: 135

And he did sign Gomes, who has been OK. Nix, who hasn't been so good and Hernandez who I'm not even sure is still alive. When he was alive and playing, I think he was a push although for the money, I'd almost rather see Ryan "Banzai" Freel out there for 80 games if it meant no Willy T.

I mean, Chris Dickerson's BA is only .007 LESS than Willy T's OBP. Yet Willy T has nearly 400 ABs while Dickerson has 238. At least Stanton was a relief pitcher that you could go a couple games without seeing. Willy T, God love him-he seems like a real nice guy, is terrible AND persistent.

Wayne may've overpaid for those guys but at least they've produced.

Look at it this way..if you could have one of the two situations on your hands for 2009 (and 2009 only), which would you want?

a) Taveras and $33MM to spend on 3 players
b) Harang, Arroyo and Cordero and $2MM to spend on 2 players

I am taking choice "a" and cutting Taveras one second after choosing.

Since I don't have a time machine to go back and erase the contracts that Walt knew he had to deal with when he took over, I'll go for:

c) Walt does something creative in the time he's had to create payroll flexibility for himself by tapping into his "experience" and "history of winning" and making some trades.

And maybe he will.

$2MM this year for Taveras isn't handcuffing the team.

It's $6mm for TWO YEARS. And if finances are so tight, it absolutely is.

Further, it's beyond hypocritical for you to have bellowed on endlessly about Stanton, Cormier, et al., and saying things like "it adds up." Sorry to drop this newsflash on you but that knife cuts both ways. Taveras is beyond awful and plays nearly every day and has the second most ABs on the team. We get to watch his tango next year for DOUBLE the bread and now, it's not "handcuffing?"

At least we only had to watch Corey Patterson for one year. At least the pain of Stanton et al. is over.

It is definitely money wasted, but I don't think anyone should view his contract as being a difference maker.

It most certainly is and I shall continue to point that out with aplomb.

Your problem is you want to blame Wayne for everything.

I'm blaming Bob C, Wayne, Walt and Dusty.

[nate]

If Bob needs to OK a move like Taveras', then Walt needs to quit asap. Walt should be making those calls on his own.

The call Walt should make is to Dusty.

"Dusty, it's Walt. Stop playing Willy Taveras unless it's to pinch run and there's absolutely no chance he comes to the plate."

[REDREAD]

If Bob needs to OK a move like Taveras', then Walt needs to quit asap. Walt should be making those calls on his own.

Yes, I do not want the owner making any player decision moves. That is a recipe for disaster. Sure, Walt whiffed on Taveras. No one will dispute that.
But he did pretty darn good on some of his other moves.

I really don't get the bile for Lincoln.. 2 years/4 million.. he got hurt. Again, I don't recall anyone complaining at the time of the signing. It got similiar reactions to the Rhodes signing (which everyone loves).

Harriston Jr? That was a one year 2 million deal. Walt was able to move him to NYY fairly easy. If you hate Harriston Jr, you might as well start complaining about Nix and the other low dollar players. Harriston was relatively cheap insurance at all OF and INF postions. Rosters need a guy like that, but you hope he isn't forced to play every day.

I am hoping Walt is given some money this year to try to improve the team again. With AGon and Hernandez rolling off (and EdE, Weathers and JHJ traded), hopefully there's some room to manuever.

I agree this team was never a contender to begin with, but this is one of the worst seasons I can remember for injuries. Plus we got the regression of Harang/Arroyo. Not sure any GM could've covered (or foreseen) all the things that went wrong this year.

[REDREAD]

Wayne signed:

2009
Arroyo ERA+: 94
Harang ERA+: 103
Cordero ERA+: 255

Yep, those are the good guys he signed.

Walt signed:

2009
Taveras OPS+: 47
Hairston OPS+: 81
Lincoln ERA+: 54
Weathers ERA+: 135

And other than Weathers, you picked the bad guys Walt got.
What about Rhodes?

Dickerson has been battling injuries this season, and has not exactly been that great shakes either.

Wayne may've overpaid for those guys but at least they've produced.

But you left out the turds that Wayne signed. Thankfully, most are off the roster now.
If we are going to blame Walt for signing Lincoln, who then got injured, isn't it fair to criticize Wayne for trading for Volquez who is also injured? IMO, no it isn't. Walt signed 3 veteran relievers. 2 worked out great, 1 got hurt. I will take that every year out of a GM. Again, I wonder where all the Lincoln haters were at the time the contract was signed? I think it was nearly unamimous that while a one year deal was perfered, it was not a bad signing..

[Tom Servo]

I really don't get the bile for Lincoln.. 2 years/4 million.. he got hurt. Again, I don't recall anyone complaining at the time of the signing. It got similiar reactions to the Rhodes signing (which everyone loves).

Not really true. Hell, FCB was the first to reply and he complained (rightfully).

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...t=Mike+Lincoln


And here was my take on it

I'm not that happy about this. One year for 2 million would be okay, but even then I could see where Lincoln would struggle and we'd have to DFA him. But two years for a guy who just came out of semi-retirement last year to put up just okay numbers doesn't sit well with me. I'd like for Hot Rod to prove me wrong.

And I stand by that. Because he did struggle and we should have DFA him.