Phil Castellini surprised that Opening Day tickets still unsold

[Wonderful Monds]

Isn’t that exactly what Monds was doing to him?

Not at all. If anyone wants to stay plugged into the Reds at this point, then by all means I’m not going to try to stop them.


I’m just going to be real though when people start suggesting the Reds are going to go on a FA spending spree ever again. Castellanos and Moose were the 2 biggest FA contracts they’ve ever given out, and then they immediately crapped their pants and got cold feet at the first sign of mild adversity, and absolutely slashed payroll to the bone and have been coming up with a million pathetic excuses why.

They will never ever spend that kind of money on free agents ever again.

[Old school 1983]

Well, off the top of my head - Krall came out and said after the Iglesias trade they were going to re-allocate the money to sign a SS and never did.

Ok. You got me there. One example in 15 + years. I don’t think that was for a lack of trying though. They seemed to be in on every SS in the market.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I believe Krall said that put them under this years payroll and would allow them to add more talent to this years team. Which they did. Also, in assessing the deal there’s a pretty strong damn case that the Reds will have the better end of it when it’s all said and done. So, I don’t consider that a lie. What does David Bell have to do with lying? If you think the move was incompetent, fair enough. Incompetence isn’t lying.

That's as far as this conversation needs to go, then.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok. You got me there. One example in 15 + years.

WTF?

You can't be serious here.

[Old school 1983]

And then nothing else happened since

No. There were zero FA signed this off-season after Krall literally said we’d bring in guys after the Winker/Suarez deal. But I’m sure you’ll just want to piss all over those guys too despite them being solid players.

[Old school 1983]

That's as far as this conversation needs to go, then.

- - - Updated - - -



WTF?

You can't be serious here.

All the further it needs to go? The MLB portion of the return put up more bWAR than Winker and Suarez last year. Yes, that’s a very superficial finger in the air analysis but it’s all the further you need to go to show there’s legit baseball considerations in the move even before you factor in the prospect return.

I’m fully serious. You just cited a bunch of examples of GM speak. Every organization does that and it’s not indicative of lying or not. It’s just part of the game. Give straight lies with specificity. RTG did.

[Bourgeois Zee]

No. There were zero FA signed this off-season after Krall literally said we’d bring in guys after the Winker/Suarez deal. But I’m sure you’ll just want to piss all over those guys too despite them being solid players.

None of those guys are in the same stratosphere as Winker.

Who was given away so that the Reds could save future money on Suarez's contract.

[missionhockey21]

This whole "Rays" thing is such a cop out. Sorry.

I am not targeting anyone in this thread, truly, I just keep hearing this on podcasts and on the radio.

The Reds absolutely need to develop from the farm. The Dodgers needs to develop from the farm, and they do (or get trade pieces to get a Mookie.) Every team needs to do this. But make no mistake, the Rays would do a whole lot better in the postseason with their system and an extra 40-70 million in payroll to fill gaps.

If the Reds payroll is 10 million less to invest more in staff and personnel to have a winner, I am all for it. But the payroll needs to be as high as it can be to compete, because the good teams in large markets, have both. We need to have development and a build within culture, but we also need to shrewdly spend what we can to the maximum if we want to beat any major market team without a whole lot of luck on our side (either in a series or just fantastic booms with all top prospects just hitting their peak.)

I feel like the media saying "Rays" gives Bob and co. license to trot out 50 million dollar payrolls.

[Bourgeois Zee]

All the further it needs to go? The MLB portion of the return put up more bWAR than Winker and Suarez last year. Yes, that’s a very superficial finger in the air analysis but it’s all the further you need to go to show there’s legit baseball considerations in the move even before you factor in the prospect return.

I’m fully serious. You just cited a bunch of examples of GM speak. Every organization does that and it’s not indicative of lying or not. It’s just part of the game. Give straight lies with specificity. RTG did.

We disagree.

It's totally lying.

You're an apologist who's okay with that. I'm not.

End of discussion.

[LeatherPants]

Assuming about $290 million in revenue this year, their payroll (as of today) is under 40% of revenue. (37.9%). I'd wager, that once they start "adding" again in a few years they'll be right back in that 48% range, which means all these contracts being taken off the books this year is never going to be used as payflex.

[RedTeamGo!]

Not at all. If anyone wants to stay plugged into the Reds at this point, then by all means I’m not going to try to stop them.


I’m just going to be real though when people start suggesting the Reds are going to go on a FA spending spree ever again. Castellanos and Moose were the 2 biggest FA contracts they’ve ever given out, and then they immediately crapped their pants and got cold feet at the first sign of mild adversity, and absolutely slashed payroll to the bone and have been coming up with a million pathetic excuses why.

They will never ever spend that kind of money on free agents ever again.

I agree they will never spend on FAs like that again. I am also not sure if they should. Not giving the Reds an excuse, just being realistic.

For the record, you want to tell a poster his opinion is so bad he must be on drugs, thats cool, but I certainly don't think a comparable response should be surprising to anyone from the peanut gallery (Leatherpants), lol.

[Old school 1983]

It's remarkable that a lie as easily debunked as that continues to swindle intelligent people who pay attention to the sport.

Last season they had a huge war chest like they will in the coming years they had the biggest FA off-season in franchise history. And frankly I don’t mind if they pocket some money. I don’t begrudge people making money especially when they likely borrowed against the value of the team to facilitate payrolls over what the market size dictated in the past.

[Old school 1983]

We disagree.

It's totally lying.

You're an apologist who's okay with that. I'm not.

End of discussion.

I hate the apologist crap. It gets so tired when the line is used. I’m not an apologist. Speaking to the public about private business dealings is like politics. There’s going to always be a certain level of BS that goes with it. Your examples IMO were general statements that fall under the BS that the vast majority of people in such positions regurgitate. It’s GM speak. I’m interested in specific out and out lies not GM speak has a certain level of BS type stuff.

[Caveat Emperor]

It's remarkable that a lie as easily debunked as that continues to swindle intelligent people who pay attention to the sport.

Not just here in Cincinnati.

Generally speaking, you should disbelieve any sports owner about what the team can/cannot afford unless they're willing to open their books and show you the balance sheet.

The Braves had to do that, and it turns out they were pocketing over $100M last year alone.

https://sports.yahoo.com/champion-br...173334889.html

[LeatherPants]

Last season they had a huge war chest like they will in the coming years they had the biggest FA off-season in franchise history. And frankly I don’t mind if they pocket some money. I don’t begrudge people making money especially when they likely borrowed against the value of the team to facilitate payrolls over what the market size dictated in the past.

A) then they shouldn't lie about putting every dollar back into the team

B) They have never had a payroll over what the market size can handle (and this is easy to confirm, on a revenue percentage basis)

[RedTeamGo!]

This whole "Rays" thing is such a cop out. Sorry.

I am not targeting anyone in this thread, truly, I just keep hearing this on podcasts and on the radio.

The Reds absolutely need to develop from the farm. The Dodgers needs to develop from the farm, and they do (or get trade pieces to get a Mookie.) Every team needs to do this. But make no mistake, the Rays would do a whole lot better in the postseason with their system and an extra 40-70 million in payroll to fill gaps.

If the Reds payroll is 10 million less to invest more in staff and personnel to have a winner, I am all for it. But the payroll needs to be as high as it can be to compete, because the good teams in large markets, have both. We need to have development and a build within culture, but we also need to shrewdly spend what we can to the maximum if we want to beat any major market team without a whole lot of luck on our side (either in a series or just fantastic booms with all top prospects just hitting their peak.)

I feel like the media saying "Rays" gives Bob and co. license to trot out 50 million dollar payrolls.

We also should not be bringing up the Dodgers, though. They gave Trevor Bauer $40 mil a year or whatever, and then we he did whatever it is he did and got suspended, they don't even bat an eye and go out and sign Freddie Freeman. They are playing with monopoly money.

I can only speak for myself, but when I bring up the Rays I am not saying be cheap for the sake of being cheap. I am saying constant roster churn with a focus on acquiring and developing pre-arb talent. When quality players start to get expensive trade them to the Padres or Dodgers for quality prospects. Quality being the key term, there. If you do this enough time you can get to the point the Rays and A's are at where they are able to consistently compete. The issue isn't their model, the issue is not fully committing. The Reds have one foot in holding on to veterans and signing aging free agents as main pieces and trading for prospects. You cannot do that. It is a recipe for mediocrity. Votto is another issue. I love him, my favorite player ever, we all love him. However, was it wise to give that money to a first basement through his age 40 year? If we are being honest, nah, probably not. For better or worse, his contract has hamstrung the team for years now by eating up 20% of the payroll.

When you run with the Rays model you cannot be fixated on the names on the backs of the jerseys, they are not long for the team in most cases and it is highly unlikely you will see them for more than 5 years. The only name that matters is the one on the front. The Reds try to make both equally important without fully committing to either and as a result they are a perennial 75-80 win team.