Comparing WAR for past/present Reds

[TRF]

I feel like we romanticize that, especially on generational teams or teams what won at a high level. Looking through past Reds teams, one player that struck me as a good comp may have been Tom Browning. I mean the guy was a starter, maybe even the #2 on a WS winning team, had maybe the greatest regular season Reds pitching performance of all time in his perfect game. I remember him fondly but when I went back and looked at his numbers, he was far closer to an average pitcher than he was a good pitcher.

Had Billingham (or Borwning or Arroyo) for that matter pitched on teams that were average, pitched in the 80's or 2000's would we remember then as fondly?

This is a great argument. We remember Browning for the Wrigley rooftop, 1990, the perfect game. Arroyo for his durability, the leg kick, tremendous hair. Now I'll make the comp that makes sense to me.

Aaron Harang was a better pitcher than Jack Billingham, and it is not particularly close.


FIGHT ME!

[RiverfrontRed]

I am not sure what stat you want to use but below I have listed a lot of stats and in the majority of them he came in 4th behind the other 3 starters. The only thing he beat out the other 3 on was wins and bb/9.

You tell me what stats you want me to use and I will grab them and I am pretty sure that it will tell us the same story that he was the 4th best starter that season on the Reds. I didn't even use WAR because you said you don't like it.

He was 3rd in innings pitched
He was 4th in hits allowed
He was 4th in runs given up
He was 4th in earned runs given up
He was 4th in SO/9
He was 4th in ERA+
He was 4th in FIP
He was 4th in WHIP
He was 4th in H/9
He was 4th in ERA

He was 1st in BB/9
He was 2nd in HRs allowed
He was tied for 2nd in CG
He tied for 1st in shutouts

The Reds had some above average pitchers that year. JB was the #2 guy in the rotation. But I’m not gonna get drawn into a debate of where he ranked in performance against his teammates. My POINT is that his 74 season was as good as Singer’s 25 season.

[Sea Ray]

Billingham routinely did something few pitchers can do today: face hitters a 3rd and 4th time on a given day. I'd say at least half of today's starters are on a regime of "look out when the lineup turns over for a 3rd round". That's where Lowder ran into problems last night

[bucksfan2]

The Reds had some above average pitchers that year. JB was the #2 guy in the rotation. But I’m not gonna get drawn into a debate of where he ranked in performance against his teammates. My POINT is that his 74 season was as good as Singer’s 25 season.

Eric Milton at one point was the #2 man in the rotation, does that mean he was good?

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Billingham routinely did something few pitchers can do today: face hitters a 3rd and 4th time on a given day. I'd say at least half of today's starters are on a regime of "look out when the lineup turns over for a 3rd round". That's where Lowder ran into problems last night

But what Billingham did then wasn't all that unique.

[Sea Ray]

Eric Milton at one point was the #2 man in the rotation, does that mean he was good?

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But what Billingham did then wasn't all that unique.

No other Red could win 19 games. He was usually lousy in Sept. That may have pulled down his overall stats. I'm just going by memory. If they could've found other pitchers to win 19 games they would've

[RiverfrontRed]

Eric Milton at one point was the #2 man in the rotation, does that mean he was good?

Is Eric Milton in the Reds Hall of Fame??

[foster15]

I feel like we romanticize that, especially on generational teams or teams what won at a high level. Looking through past Reds teams, one player that struck me as a good comp may have been Tom Browning. I mean the guy was a starter, maybe even the #2 on a WS winning team, had maybe the greatest regular season Reds pitching performance of all time in his perfect game. I remember him fondly but when I went back and looked at his numbers, he was far closer to an average pitcher than he was a good pitcher.

Had Billingham (or Borwning or Arroyo) for that matter pitched on teams that were average, pitched in the 80's or 2000's would we remember then as fondly?

I really don't see how Rose, Griffey, Morgan, Perez, Foster, Bench, Concepcion and Geronimo had much to do with Billingham's fantastic pitching in the post season which included the record for ERA in World Series until Bumgarner broke it 40 years later. And again, he was also great at nipping losing streaks in the bud. I already admitted there was nothing great about Billingham other than his ability to rise to the occasion in big games.

That same great team was in the field and at bat when Gullet and Nolan pitched in the post season and they didn't come close to Jack's post season mastery.

[TRF]

Billingham routinely did something few pitchers can do today: face hitters a 3rd and 4th time on a given day. I'd say at least half of today's starters are on a regime of "look out when the lineup turns over for a 3rd round". That's where Lowder ran into problems last night

If Billingham pitched today with those numbers he'd likely not be in a rotation.

If you are going to compare today's players with yesterday's standards, then it has to go both ways. Again, I'd take that ONE Clemens season over the entirety of Billingham's career.

[RiverfrontRed]

If Billingham pitched today with those numbers he'd likely not be in a rotation.

If you are going to compare today's players with yesterday's standards, then it has to go both ways. Again, I'd take that ONE Clemens season over the entirety of Billingham's career.

Even though fat Babe Ruth has 183 bWAR regardless that his career started 112 years ago.

[shaggy]

Is Eric Milton in the Reds Hall of Fame??

If this is where we are in this thread I am pretty sure it might as well be closed. I think Jack Billingham could come in here and tell you that he was the 4th best pitcher on the team in 1974 and you would tell him he is wrong.

[LeatherPants]

You guys, he already said he was never going to be convinced, not sure why anyone would keep trying to convince him

[TRF]

Even though fat Babe Ruth has 183 bWAR regardless that his career started 112 years ago.

A. he was not always fat.

2. are you comparing Ruth's career to Jack Billingham?

c. Jack Billingham having 21.9 fWAR or 9.9 bWAR is more a function of his talent relative to his peers than anything else. As Ruth's is a comparison to his peers. Because he was better than everyone else. He didn't earn 183bWAR in one fat year at age 39. Fat Babe Ruth had a .985 OPS in 125 games and earned 5.0 bWAR.


Just stop. Billingham was a guy pitching on a field of legends. And those legends happened to produce more runs than he gave up, something that they for whatever reason, did not do for Kirby, even though he gave up fewer runs in 18 more IP. They didn't do it for Gullet either in waaaay more IP.

In fact, while bWAR is not as kind, fWAR show that in 74, Kirby and Gullet are basically a wash for the year, Billingham is 4th.

Relative to the league, his season was not special. relative to his teammates, in '74, he was the 4th best SP.

[RiverfrontRed]

2. are you comparing Ruth's career to Jack Billingham?

You're joking right?

[Tony Cloninger]

In 1973 Jack threw almost 300 innings and had 7 shutouts. The Reds were not scoring 5-6 runs every game for him. Quit romanticizing the BRM that they scored 5-6 runs a game. They had a lot of games were they won beacuse of their pitching.

It’s correct that if you take out JB September showings in 1973-74 he was the number 1-2 guy in the staff with Don having the obvious best stuff. Kirby was the designated bats go silent pitcher in 74 though.

How is Jack though the number 4 in 74? Roger Nelson and Tom Carroll were barely number 4 that year. They walked more hitters than they struck out. Fred Norman sure but before September it was Jack.

[mth123]

In 1973 Jack threw almost 300 innings and had 7 shutouts. The Reds were not scoring 5-6 runs every game for him. Quit romanticizing the BRM that they scored 5-6 runs a game. They had a lot of games were they won beacuse of their pitching.

It’s correct that if you take out JB September showings in 1973-74 he was the number 1-2 guy in the staff with Don having the obvious best stuff. Kirby was the designated bats go silent pitcher in 74 though.

How is Jack though the number 4 in 74? Roger Nelson and Tom Carroll were barely number 4 that year. They walked more hitters than they struck out. Fred Norman sure but before September it was Jack.

He had a couple bad Septembers if I remember right. Got to 19 wins a couple of times and couldn't get to 20 because of his poor Septembers. He was pretty darned good in October though.

I think the pecking order for that Staff was supposed to be Gullett, Nelson, Billingham, Kirby, Norman but Nelson was injured a lot and it became Gullett, Billingham, Kirby, Norman and Carroll. The next year Gary Nolan returned and Kirby fell apart and became a mop-up man and the staff was Gullett, Billingham, Nolan, Norman with Kirby, Pat Darcy and Caroll all getting starts. Gullett was injured by a line drive (Larvell Blanks) and missed a couple of months.