Game of Thrones Season 8

[M2]

Yeah, I’m not buying the unsullied and Dothraki stuff. They had basically a religious devotion to her. No way they don’t kill Jon.

I buy that for the Dothraki. The Unsullied, whose devotion to each other run deep? Grey Worm wouldn't hand his brothers a death sentence. And the Unsullied are running the show. There's probably a great chapter to be had out of Grey Worm's conflicted emotions, the splintering of his army, the remaining armies of Westeros encircling him as his provisions run out and Tyrion bending his ear. Grey Worm is neither rash nor foolish. Much as he might hate it, he needs Jon alive to do right by his soldiers.

[M2]

How much of the northern army could have been left? Presumably they marched down to Kings Landing led by Jon, yet the forces that attacked Kings Landing were primarily Dothraki and Unsullied (somehow).

Seemed to be an even mix. Technically, Dany's army is what survived Winterfell and didn't get sunk by the iron fleet. The show played loose with numbers. Armies had a habit of shrinking and growing (probably dependent on the budget for extras). Yet, more importantly, there's all of Westeros even if they beat the Northmen. Grey Worm's in a city with no provisions, no defenses and no method of escape, in charge of an army he can't possibly hold together. I mean, what's the over/under for the Dothraki splitting? Nightfall?

[Larry Schuler]

Did we ever get the details on HOW they found out and WHEN? The argument that the Unsullied and Dothraki would play it smart and politically hinges on those for me. If they found out immediately, I can't see how they don't kill Jon in a moment of passion/vengeance. If she's vanished for a time and things slowly start to get unsteady and people start making calculations, I can see them learning it was Jon and imprisoning him.

[M2]

Did we ever get the details on HOW they found out and WHEN? The argument that the Unsullied and Dothraki would play it smart and politically hinges on those for me. If they found out immediately, I can't see how they don't kill Jon in a moment of passion/vengeance. If she's vanished for a time and things slowly start to get unsteady and people start making calculations, I can see them learning it was Jon and imprisoning him.

Agreed. Given the totality of human military history involves using prisoners to negotiate terms of retreat/surrender, I think we have to recognize that there's a lot of potential paths to keeping Jon as a hostage. I think the cleanest way is Tyrion's with Grey Worm and lays out that not everyone he loves is dead or needs to die.

The only flaw with it being unknown for a few days is that involves Jon not telling the very first person he sees. Message discipline is not his strong suit.

[NeilHamburger]

Well, I imagine some of the soldiers would've seen the dragon fly away, and they also would've seen the fire in the castle. I don't see how they wouldn't have went up to investigate quickly.

[puca]

Seemed to be an even mix. Technically, Dany's army is what survived Winterfell and didn't get sunk by the iron fleet. The show played loose with numbers. Armies had a habit of shrinking and growing (probably dependent on the budget for extras). Yet, more importantly, there's all of Westeros even if they beat the Northmen. Grey Worm's in a city with no provisions, no defenses and no method of escape, in charge of an army he can't possibly hold together. I mean, what's the over/under for the Dothraki splitting? Nightfall?

Of course this is just my take.

I suspect the Dotraki would have only stuck around long enough for a new Khal (or Khals) to emerge and after that they would be off to pillage the nearest unprotected village. They don't dwell on the loss of the Khal, and I doubt the loss of Dany would have phased them all that much.

Westeros has been in constant war for how many years? Since Cersi had to buy and army to defend Kings Landing that tells me there wasn't much of one left in the south. The Northern army was decimated between the Battle of the Bastards and the defense of Winterfell. I don't see there being that large and organized army left in Westeros. Not to mention with their leaders all dead, how long would it have taken to build up and organize one that could have fought off the Unsullied? Take Jon out and who would have even been able to rally it? And any men left should have been rightfully worried about the Dothraki hoard and their first concern would be protecting their homes.

Unsullied were raised to be warriors, follow orders, show no fear and to fight to the death. They were not raised to think things out for themselves. Now Grey Worm certainly showed some personal growth beyond his upbringing, but never demonstrated strategic or forward thinking before. In fact he seemed truly puzzled by Tyrion and his way of reasoning when in Meereen. His first instinct has always been to barge headlong into conflict. I can see him being adrift a bit without his two anchors, but I don't see him keeping his temper in check regardless of the consequences. I can't see him to suddenly start playing the game.

Again, the only way the finale makes perfect sense to me is if Bran was doing some manipulation. I'm not saying this to excuse Dany, because I always thought she was perfectly capable of doing what she ended up doing without any outside help. I hoped she wouldn't, but knew she could. But Jon left alive and Bran as king just didn't feel natural to me.

[757690]

If you have to explain a joke, it's a failed joke.

If you have to explain character's motivations and major plot points after a show airs, you've failed as a writer.

[SteelSD]

I think a key issue here is the difference between people who have read the books and those who have just watched the show.

The show purposefully strayed from the books, as many felt that was its strength. From what I’ve been told (I have not read the books) the books were more testosterone driven, more concrete, and blunt, while the show was more nuanced, more complex, less direct.

It's exactly the opposite. Whoever told you that apparently didn't read the books either.

Had you read the books, you'd realize that George R.R. Martin could spend five pages explaining the nuanced beauty of a flower only to have it's holder be randomly killed as a result of a fight between two other characters that started right before he started telling you about the flower. It'd take another three chapters until you realized that the dead guy was actually vital to a plot point you read about two books prior.

I think those who read the books found Dany’s turn more obvious, more fully explained from the beginning, because that’s how it was in the books. But the show, being more subtle, didn’t make it as obvious, so those only watching the show were more upset with the turn, as it seemed to come from nowhere.

Nope.

[SteelSD]

I buy that for the Dothraki. The Unsullied, whose devotion to each other run deep? Grey Worm wouldn't hand his brothers a death sentence. And the Unsullied are running the show. There's probably a great chapter to be had out of Grey Worm's conflicted emotions, the splintering of his army, the remaining armies of Westeros encircling him as his provisions run out and Tyrion bending his ear. Grey Worm is neither rash nor foolish. Much as he might hate it, he needs Jon alive to do right by his soldiers.

I'm also wondering if folks realized that the first time Grey Worm was actually "free" was after Dany was killed. Prior to that, he'd only served others. Even during his bloodthirsty rampage through King's landing (and aftermath), he always laid the responsibility at Dany's feet. Even though murdering unarmed surrendering soldiers wasn't an expressly-given order, he could justify it by stating that he was following her wishes. After she died, not having direction may have just paralyzed him. It sure seemed like it as he waited around for a new ruler to be named before doing anything.

[Larry Schuler]

It's exactly the opposite. Whoever told you that apparently didn't read the books either.

Had you read the books, you'd realize that George R.R. Martin could spend five pages explaining the nuanced beauty of a flower only to have it's holder be randomly killed as a result of a fight between two other characters that started right before he started telling you about the flower. It'd take another three chapters until you realized that the dead guy was actually vital to a plot point you read about two books prior.



Nope.

If you have to explain to someone why they’re wrong, you’ve failed to prove that they’re wrong.

[RedTeamGo!]

I think a key issue here is the difference between people who have read the books and those who have just watched the show.

The show purposefully strayed from the books, as many felt that was its strength. From what I’ve been told (I have not read the books) the books were more testosterone driven, more concrete, and blunt, while the show was more nuanced, more complex, less direct.

I think those who read the books found Dany’s turn more obvious, more fully explained from the beginning, because that’s how it was in the books. But the show, being more subtle, didn’t make it as obvious, so those only watching the show were more upset with the turn, as it seemed to come from nowhere.

The idea the show is more complex than the books is, uh, something.

[757690]

The idea the show is more complex than the books is, uh, something.

I’m talking character development, not plot. You are correct, his plots are way more complex, which leads them to be less nuanced, with characters that are less complex.

[SteelSD]

If you have to explain to someone why they’re wrong, you’ve failed to prove that they’re wrong.

Drat...and here I thought it meant that my explanation indicated that my explanation had a plot hole...

[757690]

This article mirrors almost exactly what I was told about the differences between the books and the series.

http://time.com/5567981/game-of-thrones-books-show/

The Game of Thrones show characters find deeper layers... But the glut of characters means that Martin can only go so far to develop key details like personality traits and individual voices, so his characters — particularly the women — can feel one-dimensional and flat, lacking in skillful internal dialogue as Martin outlines their basic motives.

By contrast, the show tightens up the focus on certain star characters who drive the plot forward — and portrays them with nuance, giving an Emmy-winning cast the chance to flex its acting muscles.

[SteelSD]

I’m talking character development, not plot. You are correct, his plots are way more complex, which leads them to be less nuanced, with characters that are less complex.

You didn't read the books, so you really don't get to tell people who read the books what they're supposed to know about the books.