Doc sez Krivsky FIRED!

[REDREAD]

I already read Dusty as being quoted that he wanted Patterson here too, and I know that Castellini wanted Baker here.

So Castellini as owner is effecting player moves.

It was implied by reporters last year that he was involved in the Dunn deal, who or what else has Castellini's DNA on it?

Castellini had his advisor Jocketty before Fogg was signed, what happened? Jocketty and Castellini miss that incoming?

The GM is ultimately responsible for the players on the 25 man roster.
Dusty can't force him to get any players. Sure, Dusty has influence, but in the end Wayne could've made a different move, kept Hamilton, called up Bruce, signed Lofton, or made another trade for CF.. Not saying all those options were better than what Wayne did.. just pointing out that it was Wayne's choice , 100%. Cast never meddled in his trades like Allen used to.
Cast never complained when Wayne came to him and asked for money.

Blaming Jocketty and Cast for Fogg is just downright absurd. It seems you want to deflect all the bad moves on to Cast and Jocketty while giving Wayne the credit for the good moves. How come I don't see any posts praising Cast and Jocketty for Volquez and Cordero?

In mind mind, Wayne has ultimate responsiblity for all the good and bad moves. Sadly, he made more bad moves than good ones. That's why he was fired.

[Always Red]

Awesome. Castellini hired a GM who is going to half ass it.

I don't really think so...do you?

Jocketty has been a very successful GM in the past, of course. A general manager is supposed to MANAGE. Just maybe, given Wayne's penchant for secrecy, he had a problem with micromanaging everything? Not trusting other folks judgment? (Almarez and the host of others whom have left come to mind here.)

Just maybe that statement given by Jocketty was "code" for those currently working for this organization that they were going to have free rein to do their job now?

IDK, that's just my take on what that statement might mean.

[REDREAD]

Not to knock Baker, but I think too of his comment about being unaware that the Reds were signing Fogg. That might be all well and good, but they signed him to a minor league deal. If Dusty wasn't on board by the end of spring training, he should have been screaming bloody murder to not have him on the roster coming into the season. That was the time to cut him loose at little cost. I'm not buying that line. He had a chance for input.

Dusty had to lobby pretty hard for Stanton to get cut.
I suspect Dusty lobbied for Castro to be cut as well and be replaced with Harrison.
Remember, one of Wayne's faults is that he didn't listen to people.

Now talking about Fogg specifically.. Dusty's options for the fifth starter were: Fogg, Belisle and Affedlt. We can assume that Homer was not an option on opening day. So it's reasonable to give Fogg a chance. Dusty did pull the plug after 3 starts. Dusty probably also knew that Belisle wasn't likely to be much better.. Dusty probably knew the 5th starter was going to be a mess.. Remember how Dusty skipped Fogg's 2nd turn in the rotation? Dusty is doing all he can, but unfortuantely there are times when you need a #5 starter and he has to run out someone that is bad.

[REDREAD]

That's flat out wrong. Kearns had started 84 of the team's 89 games in 2006, including 11 straight games leading up to the trade. Freel was playing mostly at 3B at that juncture of the 2006 season.

Yep, the "need to get Freel in the lineup" was just Wayne trying to put a smoke screen up about blowing a hole in the OF.

When Freel failed, didn't Wayne start lauding a marginal minor league OF as well.. Maybe it was Deno. I remember Wayne proudly announcing "It's Denfornia's time" (or whoever it was).

Edited to correct name of marginal player.

[Spring~Fields]

I'm saying though that while Wayne focused a lot of effort on the rotation, he neglected the rest of the club. His comment in 2006 that he didn't really worry about who was going to play SS in 2007 was very telling. Wayne traded away a lot of offense and really didn't make much of an effort to replace it. He was happy with replacing Hamilton with Patterson, for instance.
He thought Freel was an everyday player. He thought AGon was the answer at SS. He thought Ross was the answer at C. Overall, despite the success of rolling the dice on Keppinger and Phillips, he hasn't done a good job on position players.

Yes he did focus on pitching and attempted to build that up, and I think we undersand the why's of that.

The second part, it does appear that he neglected or was weak on the rest of the club, upgrading starting position players and the bench.

I don't understand how one such as Krivsky with his outstanding scouting skills or background could have been so blind unless there were external forces influencing his choices. Surely Wayne knows that Hopper, Freel, Valetin, Ross, Belisle, Hattebreg and some others are not the cream of the crop in major league baseball and that his personnel needed upgraded.

[RedlegJake]

I just think WK and Cast were on different timetables. WK was trying to build through the farm, a slow but steady approach. He made moves under pressure to win now, and those were his worst deals all in all. WK mis-read his boss's directive. Had he read it right it is likely Bruce and Bailey and perhaps Votto & Cueto wouldn't be here right now.

Or maybe he read him right but felt he could still win now without giving up those crown jewels of the farm. Whether WK should get credit for the players in the farm system he sure changed the culture on development, dumping the "pitch to contact", the revolving starter-reliever junk, take a pitch first edicts, etc. His best deals were for young cast-offs like BP, Kepp and Hamilton turned into Volquez. Deals that spoke to the future as much or more than now. I posted before that the real aim of WK seemed to be much more 2009 or 2010 than 2008. Looks like Cast thought so, too and was VERY unhappy about it.

The Reds really need Jocketty to stick around for 5 or 6 years minimum and stabilize this whole organization. Is Jocketty really committed to this or is he just doing Bob a favor that he wants out of as soon as he can gracefully do so? THAT is a huge question in my mind. I'm not sold that Walt has his heart in it.

[REDREAD]

Ownership and the accounting department determine before a season what the “budget” will be. Now the budget is the plan according to financial and accounting principals, standard business practices.

In that plan ownership and accounting lay out what they project to spend and will a lot in the various areas of the operation.

Castellini reviews all that before to see that operations is going according to his directives and his budget, his plan.

Castellini as a control factor will review large expenditures or contingent liabilities before they are enacted, this year Castellini also had Jocketty to help with the review of such transactions etc.

Castellini has to give an account of the resources and expenditures etc to the other investors. So Castellini was fully aware and had a hand in the decisions that Krivsky made with contracts and personnel. Castellini approved them.

Castellini hired Krivsky and bares responsibility for what Krivsky did or did not.

I don't think the budget is so cut and dry for a ML team.
As an example, Bowden made a case to Lindner that Greg Vaughn would sell tickets, and the payroll was bumped up. Likewise for Jr.

Wayne probably went to Cast and gave him a presentation about how critical Freel was to the future of this team, and why extending him was such a good idea. Cast trusted Wayne and approved it.

Now I do agree with your point that ultimiately Cast is responsble for all the Reds' employees. That's why it's well within his rights to use whatever criteria he wants for a GM and fire Wayne.

But at the micro level, Wayne deserves the praise and blame for all his player moves. Cast wasn't the one that approached Stanton. It was Wayne.
Cast shouldn't be the guy to decide if it's better to invest in Stanton or Reliever XYZ. That's Wayne's job.

[REDREAD]

Nope. I'll agree that this wasn't handled well. In fact, I'll even admit that Wayne got screwed. If he had been told that things just weren't working out in Spring Training, it's one thing, but apparently he had no clue. .

Wayne knew he was on thin ice. He had to know.
He was even proud of himself for ignoring Cast's orders to put a winning team on the field, and sacrificing his job to maintain the crown jewels. He deluded himself.

Wayne was probably caught by surprise that it happened yesterday as opposed to the end of the year, but he had to know the ax was coming.

[REDREAD]

The second part, it does appear that he neglected or was weak on the rest of the club, upgrading starting position players and the bench.

I don't understand how one such as Krivsky with his outstanding scouting skills or background could have been so blind unless there were external forces influencing his choices. Surely Wayne knows that Hopper, Freel, Valetin, Ross, Belisle, Hattebreg and some others are not the cream of the crop in major league baseball and that his personnel needed upgraded.

I don't see how Freel, Castro, Valentine, Ross, AGon, Patterson, Hopper, etc
could be considered upgrades by anyone. They are marginal ML players at best. Wayne obviously didn't realize that, because he gave them all big contracts and extensions (other than Hopper).

Likewise, he obviously had no clue on how bad some of the relievers he acquired actually were. Otherwise, he would've never picked them up in the first place.

Wayne liked to bring in a bunch of players, throw them against the wall and see if they stuck. He hit on a few, but he made a lot of very expensive gambles that did not work out. On the macro level, the cost savings he got from stealling Phillips was more than counteracted by signing Stanton.

[OldXOhio]

10/3/07 - the day of infamy for Wayne. Walt admitted he and Cast have talked for some time about working together again in Cincinnati. Once STL let Walt go, it was just a matter of time. All the excuses in the world can be used to justify this firing - in the end, BC simply wanted Jocketty in the GM seat.

[nate]

I don't get all the cries for St Wayne either.

I have yet to see _one_ cry for "St. Wayne." Just because people don't share your point of view for him doesn't mean they're out ordering stained glass windows of him to be installed in their "man (and woman)-caves."

But I guess some people love a GM that never trades prospects, because hope springs eternal. Just like there was so much hope for Belisle over the off season.

Again, there's not "love" as much as there is a chasm of opinion between those who think Krivsky was "average but deserved a chance _AT LEAST_ to the end of his contract" and your position of...well, whatever it is.

Walt has a lot of work to do. Our talent is thinner at the ML level than when Wayne arrived, despite all this young talent that DanO drafted and Wayne "didn't screw up".

Phillips, Keppinger, Volquez, Cueto, Votto and I couldn't disagree more.

As Dusty said, we have 13 pending FAs, so the club was about to enter a big transition regardless of Wayne's planning.
Walt has some bad contracts that Wayne saddled him with.

And Wayne had some that Dan-O saddled him with. And Dan-O had some that Jimbo saddled him with.

There's more to building a winning club than having 3 pr 4 solid starting pitchers. Wayne never learned that.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say there was more than "get 3 or 4 solid starters" on his whiteboard.

[Gainesville Red]

I sort of get the feeling that if BCast was simply a fan I'd be voting against him on ORG status.

When Dunn strikes out on his fourth trip to the plate after hitting a double, walking and homering earlier, he'd be the guy in chat that says he sucks because he K's too much.

He may even talk about meaningless homeruns.

[Spring~Fields]

I don't think the budget is so cut and dry for a ML team.
As an example, Bowden made a case to Lindner that Greg Vaughn would sell tickets, and the payroll was bumped up. Likewise for Jr.

Wayne probably went to Cast and gave him a presentation about how critical Freel was to the future of this team, and why extending him was such a good idea. Cast trusted Wayne and approved it.

Now I do agree with your point that ultimiately Cast is responsble for all the Reds' employees. That's why it's well within his rights to use whatever criteria he wants for a GM and fire Wayne.

But at the micro level, Wayne deserves the praise and blame for all his player moves. Cast wasn't the one that approached Stanton. It was Wayne.
Cast shouldn't be the guy to decide if it's better to invest in Stanton or Reliever XYZ. That's Wayne's job.

I don't think the budget is so cut and dry for a ML team.

Yes there are allowances and flexibility to the budget ie plan. True

As an example, Bowden made a case to Lindner that Greg Vaughn would sell tickets, and the payroll was bumped up. Likewise for Jr

Yes, an objective presentation showing the cost benefit analysis and then those with the power of the purse make the choice and final decision, ultimately becoming responsible for those choices and decisions good or bad.

Wayne probably went to Cast and gave him a presentation about how critical Freel was to the future of this team, and why extending him was such a good idea. Cast trusted Wayne and approved it.

Sounds consistent and right. Plus Castellini might have liked the good press and pr that Freel was generating at the time and saw a ticket sale increase with Freel on board.

Now I do agree with your point that ultimiately Cast is responsble for all the Reds' employees. That's why it's well within his rights to use whatever criteria he wants for a GM and fire Wayne.

True, thus Castellini should be given equal weight for hiring Krivsky and firing him. Since you believe and many others do that Krivsky was a bad choice and poor hire, then Castellini owns that along with firing him to correct his previous errors in judgment.

But at the micro level, Wayne deserves the praise and blame for all his player moves. Cast wasn't the one that approached Stanton. It was Wayne.
Cast shouldn't be the guy to decide if it's better to invest in Stanton or Reliever XYZ. That's Wayne's job.

I don’t know that for sure one way or the other. “all the praise or blame” I am not comfortable with that. Stanton and the ones before Jocketty came into to review transactions and other for Castellini I could see blaming those choices and decisions on Krivsky and Castellini.


Castellini has described himself as somewhat of zealous fan of the Reds and an impatient owner, maybe he has more input on the past than we realize.

[nate]

It's very difficult to give a rookie GM the mandate to win now.

I would say that it would be very difficult to make the 2006 Reds organization "win now." Not impossible, but it would take an extraordinary GM, regardless of their experience to do so.

Understanding all of that, I do find it refreshing that people have empathy for Krivsky, but I don't understand his canonization.

That's because the canonization isn't occurring. There are a few people who mainly have negative opinions, a majority of folks who are net-neutral and a few who mainly have positive opinions (like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus). The distance between the "negs" and the "neuts" is so vast that from the vantage point of the "negs" it looks like the "neuts" are gathered around listening to the Pope and waiting for St. Wayne's tapestry to be unfurled.

In reality, we're drinking beer.

[OnBaseMachine]

Much of the losing in April, though, has centered on the team's inability to produce timely run-producing hits. Not all of that, Baker said, should be blamed on Krivsky, particularly slumps such as Corey Patterson's recent 0-for-22 streak at the plate.

"I was one of the guys who wanted Patterson, too," Baker said. "You can blame me if you want. You've got to remember, Patterson won two or three games by himself. Patterson was not a bad acquisition. He's having a bad streak."

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...T04/804240388/