8.20.14 Reds @ Cardinals

[RedTeamGo!]

LewGra and indyscott showed up when the Reds lost a series to the Cardinals and started defending them?

No.Way.

[indyscott]

I never said a word about Simon. I am saying in general. Do you feel it's worse to have a guy on your team who took a diet pill or raped a woman?

I guess he doesn't recognize the 75 and 76 WS champions since uppers were rampant on that team. Not have I read him ever ripping the integrity of the reds for awarding Bronson Arroyo for his steroid usage.

[indyscott]

LewGra and indyscott showed up when the Reds lost a series to the Cardinals and started defending them?

No.Way.

Ya I have been on here screaming about the cards being better and the reds suck!!!

Oh wait. I haven't.

[ac084c]

The Reds certainly aren't the poster child for PED integrity, that's for sure. I'm usually the first poster here to remind everyone about Walt and Dusty's past PED connections.

As for Simon, he hasn't had his day in court yet, so the Reds doing anything at this point, would hurt their integrity, not help it. If Simon is convicted of his charges, I would expect the Reds to severe all ties with him immediately.

As for other teams not valuing integrity over winning:

The Giants could used Melky Cabrera in the 2012 playoffs, after his suspension for PED use, but chose not to, because they felt it would have been wrong.

Many MLB teams put an "integrity" clause in player's contracts, which states that the team can suspended you if you act in a way the hurts the team's integrity or reputation. And many players, especially star players, have been suspended under this clause. Managers take star players out of the game if the player isn't acting like a team player.

Teams want to win first and foremost. But they don't want to win at all costs. They want to win the right way. At least most teams.

Not trying to pile on, but I'm going to have to ask for a source on the bolded. That's all news to me.

[757690]

I never said a word about Simon. I am saying in general. Do you feel it's worse to have a guy on your team who took a diet pill or raped a woman?

I guess he doesn't recognize the 75 and 76 WS champions since uppers were rampant on that team. Not have I read him ever ripping the integrity of the reds for awarding Bronson Arroyo for his steroid usage.

If a player was caught and convicted for using banned PED's, I wouldn't want my team to sign him to a long term deal, the very next year. If he was already on the team, I would hope the team traded him, but wouldn't stop rooting for them if they didn't. If the conviction happened years earlier, or if he only admitted to using them years earlier, but wasn't convicted, I wouldn't have much if a problem with him on my team.

If a player is found guilty by a US court of a violent crime, I wouldn't want him cut immediately, and expect that's what would happen.

As for the BRM, greenies were rampant in all MLB clubhouses back then, and they weren't specifically banned. Every team was using them like they were candy, everyone knew it, and no one cared.

[757690]

Not trying to pile on, but I'm going to have to ask for a source on the bolded. That's all news to me.

http://breedenlegal.com/2009/02/12/a...rality-clause/

This got me to thinking. Maybe A-Rod didn’t defraud the Yankees, but he may very well have hurt their reputation, as well as his own. This brings me to my point (…which I’m sure Hank & Hal Steinbrenner have already thought of) if you really want terminate A-R0d, or just negotiate his salary down, the morality clause is the key. You see, in just about every professional sports contracts, and most employment agreements for that matter, there is a clause that says something along the following lines:

Athlete agrees to conduct himself with due regard to public conventions and morals, and agrees that he will not do or commit any act or thing that will tend to degrade him in society or bring him into public hatred, contempt, scorn or ridicule, or that will tend to shock, insult or offend the community or ridicule public morals or decency.

[indyscott]

And steroids were rampant in MLB clubhouses yet you aren't so forgiving? Why is that?

So you say if a reds player is convicted of rape you wouldn't want him cut? Wow. I guess your definition of integrity is far different than mine.

[ac084c]

http://breedenlegal.com/2009/02/12/a...rality-clause/

Maybe I should have been clear. Can you give me a reliable source, that doesn't invoke supposition?

[757690]

And steroids were rampant in MLB clubhouses yet you aren't so forgiving? Why is that?

So you say if a reds player is convicted of rape you wouldn't want him cut? Wow. I guess your definition of integrity is far different than mine.

My bad about the rape issue. That was a typo. I meant. I would want him cut.

And I am much more forgiving about the players who used during the "steroid era," when the rules were unclear, than I am about the players who used once testing started. I'm even in favor of letting some of the former into the HOF. I'm also, in way excusing the former or the players in the 1970's who used greenies, but it's a matter of degree.

[757690]

Maybe I should have been clear. Can you give me a reliable source, that doesn't invoke supposition?

The guy who wrote that article is a well known and respected sports attorney. I don't think any one can find a more reliable source.

[ac084c]

I know some Cardinals fans who took the "moral high ground" in the wake of the Peralta signing as well. They were incensed that the Cardinals would do such a morally reprehensible thing. They were contemplating not buying season tickets and not watching the team any longer. They were poised and ready to pounce when Peralta got off to a slow start. They went so far as to say that they'd rather have Pete Kozma back in the starting role than a "convicted juicer".

You know what they're saying now - now that he's the fWAR leader on the team for position players, that he's having the best 2-way season among NL shortstops, that he's leading the team in home runs and just broke the single-season mark for a Cardinal SS?

Nothing.

And you wouldn't be either if the Reds did the same.

[ac084c]

My bad about the rape issue. That was a typo. I meant. I would want him cut.

And I am much more forgiving about the players who used during the "steroid era," when the rules were unclear, than I am about the players who used once testing started. I'm even in favor of letting some of the former into the HOF. I'm also, in way excusing the former or the players in the 1970's who used greenies, but it's a matter of degree.

I'm going to have to call BS on this - after as much as I've seen you denegrate Mark McGwire and Tony LaRussa. It seems you're setting your arbitrary "integrity endpoints" where it's convenient for you - namely, all those that exclude the St. Louis Cardinals.

That's your prerogative, but just call it what it is and stop trying to dance around it.

[indyscott]

So you feel that baseball players thought it would be ok to use something illegal?

[LewGra]

LewGra and indyscott showed up when the Reds lost a series to the Cardinals and started defending them?

No.Way.

So sad that the younger generations don't know how to read these days.

[757690]

I'm going to have to call BS on this - after as much as I've seen you denegrate Mark McGwire and Tony LaRussa. It seems you're setting your arbitrary "integrity endpoints" where it's convenient for you - namely, all those that exclude the St. Louis Cardinals.

That's your prerogative, but just call it what it is and stop trying to dance around it.

I'm not dancing around anything. I've been very critical of all PED users, even Reds. I'm just more critical of some than others, for very logical reasons.

I'm not dogmatic on this issue, there is nuance needed, just like for every issue. Not all PED's are equal, and not all circumstances are equal. Many PED apologists try to use a broad brush when criticizing PED opponents like myself. They come with examples just like the ones brought up in this thread:

If you're critical of player X, why aren't you critical of player Y? I think it's simple minded to assume that using anabolic steroids or HGH is the same as using greenies, or Andro. And taking them when there's no list of banned substances, or when there's no testing, is different than taking them when there is.

To be clear, all PED use is wrong and needs to stop. But we need to deal with each case on an individual basis, and not use a broad brush when dealing with them.