Wow, all these games with "the dirt" on his hand...seems to me that if something was really going on here, someone would have picked up on it at some point before the World Series needed ratings.
I'm not sure if this makes me a cynic or overly trusting.
There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.
Kenny Rogers did get caught, but LaRussa never pressed the issue. He did say, it was more than just DIRT unlike what Rogers is stating. I am glad you agree that RULES can be broken because when a Reds player does it or breaks another rule and then is suspended or fined then I can't wait to hear your answer when this happens.Originally Posted by Heath
Sooner or later you gamble, you will get caught and Kenny got caught. How many pictures does Savafan have to provide to convince you he is CHEATING the game of Baseball? He is a CHEAT, PERIOD!
"Some of the guys who pitched well for us last year aren't going to make the ballclub," Narron said.
Pete Rose, when asked by David Letterman who he likes in the MLB playoffs:
"You sound like you're betting on baseball."
I find it amusing how many will bash steroid users into the ground, but this is no big deal to them.
Rogers should be suspended for the rest of the series IMO. Other than that, I am not sure what can be done. He would get an appeal so nothing could really be done probably, but it should be.
There is little difference in this and steriods IMO. Cheating is cheating is cheating.For violation of any part of Rules 8.02(a)(2) through (6):
(a) The pitcher shall be ejected immediately from the game and shall be suspended automatically for 10 games.
(b) Have on his person, or in his possession, any foreign substance. For such infraction of this section (b) the penalty shall be immediate ejection from the game. In addition, the pitcher shall be suspended automatically for 10 games.
Last edited by Jpup; 10-24-2006 at 05:41 AM.
"My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton
I think that steroids are bashed because of the health risks. If player A does steroids, it pressures Player B to do them also to keep up. In that way Player A is imposing a health risk on Player B. Kind of the second hand smoke issue of the sports world. Top that off with the example it sets on kids and they are a big health problem (that costs all of us money BTW).
If it was just performance and numbers, I'm not sure that it would be as big an issue. Players and teams have always cheated to get an advantage. Corked Bats, greenies, doctored balls, spies in the seats with binoculars stealing signs, distracting stuff on the uniform, it goes on and on. None of these (except greenies) cause you to have health problems (unless you are doctoring the ball with something radioactive I guess).
Yesterday I was listening to XM and Doug Harvey (retired long time umpire) was on and he said, "As long as there are pitchers there will be guys who cheat."
If anyone thinks the numbers are pure and comparable across time its naive anyway IMO.
Last edited by mth123; 10-24-2006 at 06:08 AM.
Maybe that photographer he nailed last year is finally getting the last word!
"In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)
Hah!Maybe that photographer he nailed last year is finally getting the last word!
We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.
I think Rogers just has a problem with sloppy wiping
If you are pointing out Kenny Rogers, than you could probably point out hundreds of other baseball pitchers who need to "cheat".
You know why LaRussa doesn't press the issue? Because his own players are going to be doing the same thing and he doesn't want them to get caught.
If a Reds player get caught with 'roids or an emery board or whatever - it's their own fault.
You seem to be pretty shallow when you point your fingers at just one player. Do you have money on the Cards or something?
Some people play baseball. Baseball plays Jay Bruce.
This is what Todd Jones said last year:
Per SlateLast year, Rogers' teammate Todd Jones defended the use of pine tar in a column for the Sporting News. "Pine tar is no big deal to players," Jones wrote. "Everybody uses pine tar. … It's almost a basic part of the game. Sandpaper and Vaseline, however, are looked at as cheating."
It seems obvious everyone knew what it was but decided not to make a big deal about it... (including the umps)... but then they all came up with different stories to cover their butts, without saying "oh yeah its pine tar"
Last edited by GullyFoyle; 10-24-2006 at 10:24 AM.
Another interesting read on dirtgate:
KENNY ROGERS: ADDENDUM:
Because my memory extends roughly as far as my last drink, I was not aware of a historic parallel to the Rogers event. Jonathan Cohn--senior editor (so please don't write a bunch of bad comments about my writing)--reminded me of the 1988 NLCS between the Mets and Dodgers. Game 3, Dodgers closer, Jay Howell, comes in to pitch during a rainy, cold night at Shea. He apparently noticeably kept pulling on the strings of his glove between pitches. As the count reaches 3-2 on a Mets hitter, manager Davey Johnson calls time and asks for the glove to be inspected.
Here's where things get interesting. Howell clearly had pine tar on the glove. Neither the umpire, the pitcher, or even the Mets Keith Hernandez felt that he was "cheating." But the umpire, upon discovering the foreign substance told Lasorda that although he "hated to do it" he had no choice but to throw Howell out. The ump was none too pleased about it because he felt Howell wasn't using it to his advantage, just as an alternative to the resin bag.
Score was 4-3. Dodgers get so rattled that they promptly give up five eighth inning runs and lose 8-4 to give the Mets a 2-1 series lead.
Although some of the Mets contended that Howell had used it in game 1 because they noticed he suddenly developed a curveball he didn't have during the regular season, Hernandez didn't concur, siding with Howell's claim that it was just for grip, that there was no difference between it and the resin bag, and that it was all a big misunderstanding.
Davey Johnson clearly used it to his advantage--if he thought he'd noticed it as early as game 1, why wait until there's a full count on the batter in a 4-3 game?
As for the automatic ten game suspension, NL president (and eventually MLB commissioner), Bart Giamatti only suspended Howell for three games because he felt that although it was a technical violation of the rules, it was not cheating.
Which brings us to the $64,000 question. Given what we saw and know about Rogers, if he did have pine tar on his hands was he cheating or was it all just a big misunderstanding?
--Chris McIntosh
Found on The New Republic Blog
Now the Cardinals are accusing Rogers of scuffing the baseball on Sunday night.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15402869/
The St. Louis Cardinals said they believe Detroit Tigers pitcher Kenny Rogers was scuffing the ball during Game 2 on Sunday, aside from the controversy about the smudge on the left-hander's pitching hand, USA Today reported Tuesday.
"It was so blatant," Cardinals hitting coach Hal McRae told USA TODAY. "What was so strange about it was how obvious it was, in the World Series. It's a shame a guy would cheat in a World Series game. It hurts the integrity of the game.
"He wasn't just cheating by using pine tar; he was scuffing balls, too. We collected about five or six balls that are scuffed. He had to be using his fingernails or something."
Rogers pitched eight scoreless innings to help tie the series at one game apiece, and has not allowed a run in 23 straight innings during the playoffs. He denied after the game that he had used pine tar or any other illegal substance, maintaining that it must have been a combination of mud, dirt, rosin and spit.
"Maybe it looked like pine tar; I don't know," said Rogers, 41. "I'm skeptical of a lot of stuff (in baseball), too, but I'm not skeptical of my ability to pitch. My pitching isn't that dominant. ... I just know how to pitch."
Meanwhile, the San Francisco Chronicle said that Rogers appeared to have a similar smudge at the base of his thumb in his previous playoff victories over the Yankees and A's. He has made three starts this postseason.
"He pitched his butt off," A's third baseman Eric Chavez told The Chronicle. "I don't know enough about scuffing baseballs to know how much of an effect that it had. But, honestly, looking back, it had a little to do with it."
On Oct. 13, Rogers allowed two singles in 7 1/3 innings in the 3-0 victory over the A's that gave the Tigers a 3 games-to-1 lead in the ALCS.
"We didn't know anything was going on. We just kind of gave the guy credit, though it is well apparent he had something on his hands during all games," Chavez also told the Chronicle. "With the rules of the game, that is cheating, but logic tells us it's not cheating unless you get caught, and now it's too late."
On Monday, Cardinals manager Tony La Russa said he knew that Rogers had something on his hand in two previous playoffs starts, after watching video during their scouting reports.
"Well, 90 percent of the concentration on those tapes is trying to get an idea of how this guy is so successful and what we have to do to beat him," La Russa said. "But there was one shot that the cameras caught that you notice. It looks a little different
The Cardinals organization, from their 'roided up players to their whiny fans, just makes me sick. All they do is whine, whine, and whine some more. They sound like a bunch of damn crybabies.
Wow, I'm not sure that was warranted. The Cardinals have some of the best fans in baseball, and there hasn't been any proof that any of their players have used PEDs.
My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!
If the Cards end up winning the series he'll be seen on Channel 9 with police trying to coax him down off the bridge.
"In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)
No, no, you got that all wrong; The Cards fans are THE BEST fans in baseball, not some of the best as you said. Just ask Cardiinals fans.
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