The Lost Decade

[cumberlandreds]

The gratuitous knocks on "the last GM" are sometimes just breathtaking, even laughable. Krivsky's record was around .463, slightly better the overall percentage shown. That judgement just can't be made from this persepective (nor can it be said about Dan O'Brien at this juncture). There's just not enough data to say that. WK's draft classes are still still in A ball, for the most part. His successor, he with "a legitimate record of success," has made no moves to improve the big league club so the losing can stop now.

Not to mention that this putrid record goes back before this "lost decade" and lays at far more peoples feet than just "the last GM". This isn't a defense of WK, but such sweeping statements really are an embarrasment to the tone I would expect from RZ. When there's enough historical perspective to make that determination, come back and let us know how much of this wretchedness rests at his feet.

The problems can even be traced back to Marge Schott and her firing of scouts because all they did was watch baseball games. I knew way back then that this franchise was in trouble and it would take many,many years to build it back, if it ever can be to a competitive level.
I do think the minor league system is back on track. There seems to be talent starting to pump through it. But depth of talent needs to be built in the minor league sytem. That will take some time though and I don't think Castellini has that type of patience.

[Cyclone792]

Well, when you put it that way ...

I can't even come up with anything. I didn't realize it was that bad. Good reality check though.

I actually misspoke in my original post; it may only be the 4th worst stretch in franchise history. It depends on one's view on if a "winning" season in the middle disqualifies it.

Nevertheless, barring a miraculous finish to conclude 2008 the 2001-2008 run will be an eight year stretch of futility. Here are the four lousy stretches in franchise history since the beginning of World Series play:

• 1906-1916: total W/L record of 755-930 (.448 winning percentage) over an 11-year stretch with an average W/L record of 69-86. This stretch had one season over .500 - a 77-76 record in 1909.
• 1929-1937: total W/L record of 551-829 (.399 winning percentage) over a nine-year stretch with an average W/L record of 61-92. This stretch had zero seasons over .500 - a 74-80 campaign in 1936 was the best single season.
• 1945-1955: total W/L record of 747-945 (.441 winning percentage) over an 11-year stretch with an average W/L record of 68-86. This stretch had zero seasons over .500 - the 75-79 campaign in 1955 was the best single season.
• 2001-2008: in progress a total W/L record of 564-678 (.454 winning percentage). So far, the 80-82 campaign in 2006 has been the highlight.

What's interesting here are the three previous runs of futility each had a reward shortly afterward. The 1919 Reds won the World Series only a few years after digging themselves out of the dungeon. The 1939-40 Reds won a World Series and two NL Pennants after digging themselves out of the dungeon. And the 1961 Reds won an NL Pennant a half dozen years after digging themselves out of the dungeon.

[HokieRed]

Please note I never said that WK was anything like the only problem. I would certainly agree that the franchise's problems go back to the Schott budget-cutting, to Jim Bowden's poor drafts and arrogance about his ability to conjure a pitching staff from castoffs, to a variety of decisions by O'Brien and Krivsky. But if the current GM has not been able to make the series of breath-taking moves RZers seem to want from him, I'd suggest it's because what he has to offer around is not very desirable. He's in a classic predicament: the obvious players he has to trade will bring very little more than salary relief and make the team even worse this year than it is now and the pieces he does have that will bring some value will just open up more holes to fill. I'm actually very sympathetic with WK, as I was with O'Brien--who was treated very unfarily by RZers in my view. Both were caught with a lot of bad contracts and the resulting inflexibility, trying to satisfy owners who wanted to show they were doing something now (Lindner=Milton), and thus unable to do what it was obvious to some of us needed to be done--and still needs to be done--i.e. be honest that this team is nowhere near contention and the time frame for making it so is no less than two years and very probably longer.

[redsmetz]

The problems can even be traced back to Marge Schott and her firing of scouts because all they did was watch baseball games. I knew way back then that this franchise was in trouble and it would take many,many years to build it back, if it ever can be to a competitive level.
I do think the minor league system is back on track. There seems to be talent starting to pump through it. But depth of talent needs to be built in the minor league sytem. That will take some time though and I don't think Castellini has that type of patience.

I think this has been the situation for the last several years. I think it is critical that we continue to improve our development folks; minor league coaches, instructors, scouts, etc. I want to know that players in development are getting very good instruction, learning to be better ballpayers. I'd like the organization to be in the position of constantly having to make tough decisions viz moving players up, who to cut loose (trading chips), etc.

That was my largest objection to the gratuitous bashing of Krivsky. He's gone, but he's not anywhere near the worst thing that has set the Reds back - and I'd argue the same about Dan O'Brien. It's really not been one thing, other than perhaps, money squandering - penny wise, but pound foolish. And that goes right to the top in the past two ownership groups (Schott and Linder). Castellini can move the whole organization forward, but it takes time. We've made good strides in the last several years. I hope Jocketty will continue it (and perhaps not rushing into doing something simply for the sake of doing something bodes well).

[flyer85]

Clearly the problem is Adam Dunn and his lack of hustle.

I have heard said he jogs or walks on and off the field from his position.

[Cyclone792]

We all know pennants fly forever; unfortunately for Reds fans, we don't have any new pennants to fly.

Since the birth of the World Series in 1903, the longest the Reds have ever had to wait to fly a new NL pennant was 21 years - the stretch from their 1940 World Series championship until their 1961 NL pennant.

The last time the Reds captured the pennant was 1990, and they're not winning one in 2008. So by the time 2009 rolls around, it will already be 19 years. If the Reds are unable to grab an NL flag by 2012, they'll have endured the longest stretch in franchise history without flying a new NL pennant.

[Roy Tucker]

You can blame it on me.

When I took my then-7 yr. old son to the 1995 Division Series and NLCS games, I said "now don't get too used to this, the Reds don't make the playoffs every year".

My son is now 20 and the Reds haven't been back since. I guess I need to be careful what I say.

[Highlifeman21]

You can blame it on me.

When I took my then-7 yr. old son to the 1995 Division Series and NLCS games, I said "now don't get too used to this, the Reds don't make the playoffs every year".

My son is now 20 and the Reds haven't been back since. I guess I need to be careful what I say.

At least you were being honest.

I appreciate that, and so should your son.

All I ask is that the Reds make the playoffs by the time I turn 30 during October of 2010. But that might be asking for too much, with this current roster of "talent".

[Spring~Fields]

Great ending line.

That's what happens when you have someone like John Allen running the team into the ground.

Cyclone792 wrote:
We're pretty much now looking at the 3rd worst stretch in franchise history for this organization; only the early 30s and the late 40s/early 50s were worse. In fact, the last time the Reds were this bad for this long they were an all white team and hadn't yet integrated. And if this organization doesn't improve pretty quickly over the next few years, then they're in danger of launching themselves into the worst stretch in franchise history.
The Reds are 114 games below .500 since beginning the 2001 season
The Reds have averaged a 74-88 record since beginning the 2001 season
The Reds have been outscored by 790 runs since beginning the 2001 season
Congrats go out to everybody in the Reds organization who have contributed to such a run.

Who has been in control of this organization, who has been running it ?

Answer: Lindner, Reich, Strike, and Castellini

Through that stretch how many President and Chief Executive Officers ?

Answer: Lindner and Castellini

Through that stretch who were the powerful investors/owners, who dictate how the team will be ran, and how the resources will be managed ?

Answer: Lindner, Reich, Strike, and Castellini

Subordinates
During the period in question,
How many general managers?
How many managers?
How many coaches?
How many players?

Doesn’t seem to have mattered who the general managers, managers, coaches or players were according to the results posted in this thread. Considering the high turnover in that area.

I suggest that the “powers that be” are and have been the problem of winning baseball games, as they laughed all the way to the bank, and won big on the financial sides.

Question has the ticket prices gone up as the product remained bad ?

Robert H. Castellini President and Chief Executive Officer
Investors
Robert H. Castellini - W. Joseph Williams Jr. - Thomas L. Williams
Carl H. Lindner -- Carl H. Lindner III -- Mrs. Louis Nippert -- William J. Reik -- George L. Strike
Rick Steiner, Buy Buy Baseball, LLC - EMK Investment Company, LLC - Larry Sheakley - Jeffrey L. Wyler
Harry J. Fath - Jeffrey L. Gendell - Edwin J. Riguad, AACE, LLC - HKR Baseball, LLC - Ronald L. Sargent
John H. Wyant - George H. Vincent, Queen City Diamond, LLC - Heading for Home, LLC - Art Hauser
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/team/...e.jsp?c_id=cin

[MrCinatit]

Since the birth of the World Series in 1903, the longest the Reds have ever had to wait to fly a new NL pennant was 21 years - the stretch from their 1940 World Series championship until their 1961 NL pennant.
The last time the Reds captured the pennant was 1990, and they're not winning one in 2008. So by the time 2009 rolls around, it will already be 19 years. If the Reds are unable to grab an NL flag by 2012, they'll have endured the longest stretch in franchise history without flying a new NL pennant.

Oh, make the pain stop.
But, hey, it ain't 100 years. Yet.

You can blame it on me.
When I took my then-7 yr. old son to the 1995 Division Series and NLCS games, I said "now don't get too used to this, the Reds don't make the playoffs every year".
My son is now 20 and the Reds haven't been back since. I guess I need to be careful what I say.

I can probably share some of that blame.
The last time I went to a game was 1990.

[westofyou]

Folks lament the fact that Reds brass wants to finish above .500 this year, many think it doesn't matter.. probably not the ones trying to sell season ticket packages, but I see their side too. That said the Reds are one losing season from the 3 Star Stink.


To get in the door your team needs to have 8 sub (or .500) seasons in a row. To get into the next level you need 11 season in a row... Baltimore is going there this year.

BTW Bob Castellini used to be part owner of the Orioles too.


*** THREE STAR STINK

St. Louis Cardinals
----------------------------------
YEAR  PLACE   W    L   PCT   GB    TITLE 
1902  6th     56   78  .418   44.5 
1903  8th     43   94  .314   46.5 
1904  5th     75   79  .487   31.5 
1905  6th     58   96  .377   47.5 
1906  7th     52   98  .347   63   
1907  8th     52  101  .340   55.5 
1908  8th     49  105  .318   50   
1909  7th     54   98  .355   56   
1910  7th     63   90  .412   40.5 

1911  5th     75   74  .503   22

A nine-year run of futility that ended oddly enough when Helene Hatheway Britton inherited the team from her father and uncle, making her the first female owner in the history f the game. Five years later Branch Rickey appeared from the team across town and well that suffices it to say; this is the Cardinals only entry in the list.

This was the end result of what happens when you have no hitting and no pitching you get only one season that you don't finish 30 or more back from first. However they did manage to get Miller Huggins away from the Reds in the middle of that span, he helped pave the way for the Rickey era, whilst the Reds floundered for the first time, but certainly not the last.

Cincinnati Reds 
---------------------------------
YEAR  PLACE   W    L   PCT   GB    TITLE
1929  7th     66   88  .429   33   
1930  7th     59   95  .383   33   
1931  8th     58   96  .377   43   
1932  8th     60   94  .390   30   
1933  8th     58   94  .382   33   
1934  8th     52   99  .344   42   
1935  6th     68   85  .444   31.5 
1936  5th     74   80  .481   18   
1937  8th     56   98  .364   40   

1938  4th     82   68  .547    6

The plight of the Reds is at the end of the 1920’s and into the depression is one marked with a reoccurring theme in early baseball history (older owner bases not changing with the times) and a constant theme, money issues affecting the franchise. The departure of Garry Herrmann from the Reds brass was mirrored by an unstable time in the Reds history, local businessman Sidney Weil was able to wrest the club away from the men who ran the team in the post Herrmann era, but he hardly had the resources to run a major league franchise and the stock market collapse ensured that he never would in the near future. Eventually the bank owned the Reds, Larry MacPhail came to town, then Powell Crosley and Warren Giles. During this time they changed the game (Night Contests) and they stank, a putrid, stink losing 94 games or more 6 times out of 9 seasons and holding the bottom of the league down for 5 of them.

Pittsburgh Pirates
----------------------------------
YEAR  PLACE   W    L   PCT   GB    TITLE 
1949  6th     71   83  .461   26   
1950  8th     57   96  .373   33.5 
1951  7th     64   90  .416   32.5 
1952  8th     42  112  .273   54.5 
1953  8th     50  104  .325   55   
1954  8th     53  101  .344   44   
1955  8th     60   94  .390   38.5 
1956  7th     66   88  .429   27   
1957  T7th    62   92  .403   33   

1958  2nd     84   70  .545    8

When the Pirates were sold in the late 40’s to a group including Bing Crosby it was the passing of an era. The passing of the torch from Mrs. Barney Dreyfuss (the wife of the Pirates owner since the early part of the century) marked the end of the last ownership that could reach back and touch the days of the realigned National League. The move was the end of an era when Pittsburgh was known as Smoke City and the beginning of an era that would reshape the team and the cities image in the eyes of the baseball world. It also marked the last stop as team GM for Branch Rickey, who was eventually hired to fix the mess created by the dinosaur ownership group who couldn’t move with the quickening pace of mid-century major league baseball. 317 losses in three years, it’s a wonder the team didn’t move, and to show their appreciation once the team stopped losing 100 games a season the fans started to return.

Chicago White Sox
----------------------------------
YEAR  PLACE   W    L   PCT   GB    TITLE
1927  5th     70   83  .458   39.5 
1928  5th     72   82  .468   29   
1929  7th     59   93  .388   46   
1930  7th     62   92  .403   40   
1931  8th     56   97  .366   51.5 
1932  7th     49  102  .325   56.5 
1933  6th     67   83  .447   31   
1934  8th     53   99  .349   47   
1935  5th     74   78  .487   19.5 

1936  3rd     81   70  .536   20

When Charles Comiskey built his steel and concrete stadium in 1909 he asked pitcher Ed Walsh to help him design the field. Walsh a spitballer in an era that favored pitching helped design a park that was a nice pitchers park for most of it’s life. During hitting eras it helped the home team, except when the home team didn’t help itself. The above is one of those times. A 9 year stretch of sub par hitting and pitching, during one of the biggest hitting eras ever. Prior to 1927 the White Sox had only lost 80 games 5 times prior, it would take 8 season until they lost less then 80. The absolute bottom was hit when the White Sox lost 102 games the year after Charles Comiskey died.

AMERICAN LEAGUE
1927-1935

ERA                         DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE   
Yankees                    0.36     3.99     4.35   
Senators                   0.15     4.20     4.35   
A's                        0.15     4.20     4.35   
Indians                    0.06     4.29     4.35   
Tigers                     0.04     4.31     4.35   
Red Sox                    -.15     4.50     4.35   
White Sox                  -.22     4.57     4.35   
Browns                     -.39     4.73     4.35  

=================================================

OBA                         OBA    
Yankees                    .372   
A's                        .360   
Senators                   .352   
Tigers                     .349   
Indians                    .347   
Browns                     .338   
White Sox                  .334   
Red Sox                    .328   

SLG                         SLG    
Yankees                    .452   
A's                        .435   
Tigers                     .411   
Indians                    .405   
Senators                   .395   
Browns                     .382   
Red Sox                    .367   
White Sox                  .366

Fun Fact: The White Sox didn’t have a player top 29 Home Runs in a season until Bill Melton did it in 1970. In the same span the Yankees did it 44 times and the Red Sox 25, and in Detroit they did it 19 times.

Washington Senators 
---------------------------------
YEAR  PLACE   W    L   PCT   GB    TITLE
1954  6th     66   88  .429   45   
1955  8th     53  101  .344   43   
1956  7th     59   95  .383   38   
1957  8th     55   99  .357   43   
1958  8th     61   93  .396   31   
1959  8th     63   91  .409   31   
1960  5th     73   81  .474   24   
1961  7th     70   90  .438   38   

1962  2nd     91   71  .562    5

The stink of death, as one of the original AL franchises moves out of the Capital, again. Strangely enough the Washington franchise was drawing about what the pitiful Pirates of the 50’s were drawing. But they didn’t have an owner grumbling about the racial makeup of the city and the dollars being generated by once lost franchises like the Braves. In the decade of the super team the Senators fall way short, they don’t get much press from the New York saturated coverage of the 50’s in the baseball literary world. Taking a look at their record and you might understand why. Each dynasty has its bobos; this is a prime example of one. Whitey Herzog got 504 at bats with the Senators during this time, compiling a .230/.300/.313 line. The last year of the run was spent in Minnesota and a new era was beginning.

Boston Red Sox 
---------------------------------
YEAR  PLACE   W    L   PCT   GB    TITLE 
1959  5th     75   79  .487   19   
1960  7th     65   89  .422   32   
1961  6th     76   86  .469   33   
1962  8th     76   84  .475   19   
1963  7th     76   85  .472   28   
1964  8th     72   90  .444   27   
1965  9th     62  100  .383   40   
1966  9th     72   90  .444   26   

1967  1st     92   70  .568   +1     AL CHAMPIONS

It began the year Ted Williams turned 40, and the year that Pumpsie Green makes the Red Sox the last team to leave the lily white past of baseball in the rearview mirror. The 100-loss season in 1965 was the first 100-loss season since prior to the Yawkeys purchasing the team in the 1930’s. The string ends with the Impossible Dream season in 1967 and the cementing of Carl Yastrzemski a Boston legend, a moment still celebrated in Red Sox lore, a space of time that even surprised the most diehard Sox fan.

Philadelphia Phillies
--------------------------------
YEAR  PLACE   W    L   PCT   GB    TITLE
1954  4th     75   79  .487   22   
1955  4th     77   77  .500   21.5 
1956  5th     71   83  .461   22   
1957  5th     77   77  .500   18   
1958  8th     69   85  .448   23   
1959  8th     64   90  .416   23   
1960  8th     59   95  .383   36   
1961  8th     47  107  .305   46   

1962  7th     81   80  .503   20

What goes up must come down. The Phillies brief touch of the top was a mere memory as they found themselves in a familiar place, the bottom half of the standings, howver this time they were the only show in town, having bid the A’s farewell when they went west after the 1954 season. Two .500 seasons stretched this minor stink in Phillie history; the 90 loss season in 1959 was the teams 26th season with 90 losses or more! 12 of those seasons were 100 losses or more. Gene Mauch came in and saved their bacon, only to infuriate the fans later on in the decade.

Twins
----------------------------------
YEAR  PLACE   W    L   PCT   GB    TITLE
1993  T5th    71   91  .438   23   
1994  4th     53   60  .469   14   
1995  5th     56   88  .389   44   
1996  4th     78   84  .481   21.5 
1997  4th     68   94  .420   18.5 
1998  4th     70   92  .432   19   
1999  5th     63   97  .394   33   
2000  5th     69   93  .426   26   

2001  2nd     85   77  .525    6

Ahh the Twins… so often they have popped up after years of stink, vengeful and scrappy they fight their way into the scene, despite the pundits declarations. This era of the Twins was affected by the post lock out situation and the ensuing era often found them on the top of lists to be contracted… somewhere Sam Rice cried. Four straight seasons of 90 losses and 1st base manned by Scott Stahoviak, a fan can only stomach so much. Payback comes again this post season as the once to be contracted Twins are again fighting to be in the post season.

Royals
----------------------------------
YEAR  PLACE   W    L   PCT   GB    TITLE

1995  2nd     70   74  .486   30   
1996  5th     75   86  .466   24   
1997  5th     67   94  .416   19   
1998  3rd     72   89  .447   16.5 
1999  4th     64   97  .398   32.5 
2000  4th     77   85  .475   18   
2001  5th     65   97  .401   26   
2002  4th     62  100  .383   32.5 

2003  3rd     83   79  .512    7

A surprise season in 2003 pulled the once proud Royals franchise out of their post strike funk. It turned out to be a fluke however and the Royals are once again poised to lose 100 games. A feat first attained since 1970 by the 2002 club a team that was the portal out of the game for Chuck Knoblauch. Currently the Royals are in a funk that looks like a sure thing for some sort of list about bad baseball teams in the near future.

[Cyclone792]

Great stuff, woy.

[Rojo]

It's the White Sox' problem now.

[KronoRed]

It's the White Sox' problem now.

Hardly, the problems around the Reds run way deeper then one player.

[RosieRed]

It's the White Sox' problem now.

Yeah. The Reds losing since 2001 has been completely fixed now. Going forward as is toward an undefeated rest of the season!