Indiana Basketball Continued

[dabvu2498]

Continue your Hoosier talk here.

[Assembly Hall]

BTW...I thought Hanner looked great yesterday. The kid needs more minutes.

[RedTeamGo!]

I would not consider OSU a "very good conference win" this year. This is a team that lost to Penn State twice.

[Hoosier Red]

It's hard to say what a good conference win is this year(or conversely a bad conference loss) That's why I'm thinking 9-9 may be enough to make the NCAA tournament.

[RedTeamGo!]

It's easy to say: OSU is not a good conference win this year.

Source: I am an OSU fan

[bucksfan2]

It's easy to say: OSU is not a good conference win this year.

Source: I am an OSU fan

OSU is a good team. I am not ready to concede that they are a bad team yet. That IU game frustrated me about as bad as any game has this season. The PSU game is easier to shrug off because the officials took control of the game early. But yesterday's game was just a comedy of errors.

OSU got out to a good start but Thad watched a 10 (or 8) point lead dwindle to a sizable deficit without making any lineup changes. He did call a TO but until Q picked up a T he went with the same lineup. The same lineup that had trouble scoring. The same lineup with Smith Jr on the bench who had been having a good game.

Then in the second OSU clawed within 2 points for a number of possessions. But those offensive possessions were awful. Their offensive flow was terrible and they had two or three players on the court who were no threat to score. Shannon Scott has taken a step back offensively this season, Trey McDonald doesn't belong on the court with the exception of picking up 5 fouls, and when Sam Thompson isn't confident in his shot he does nothing on offense except looking for a lob.

Now to Aaron Craft. The worst two game stretch I have seen him have in his career. Under 4 minutes with a 6-10 point deficit Craft went on a span of empty possessions that either ended in a turn over or a terrible layup attempt against a center. He needs to play better.

Apparently there is a rumor spreading that Dwight K Schrute threw a party after IU upset OSU because that put the Hoosiers somewhere close to the bubble. Is that true or did they cut down the nets?

[Hoosier Red]

Apparently there is a rumor spreading that Dwight K Schrute threw a party after IU upset OSU because that put the Hoosiers somewhere close to the bubble. Is that true or did they cut down the nets?

Both actually. :) The rings for this year's team will note not one but two two game winning streaks in conference play.

[Revering4Blue]

BTW...I thought Hanner looked great yesterday. The kid needs more minutes.

He really answered the bell. Most importantly, it wasn't the bell for last call. :beerme:

Nice job, Hanner!

[Razor Shines]

OSU is a good team. I am not ready to concede that they are a bad team yet. That IU game frustrated me about as bad as any game has this season. The PSU game is easier to shrug off because the officials took control of the game early. But yesterday's game was just a comedy of errors.

OSU got out to a good start but Thad watched a 10 (or 8) point lead dwindle to a sizable deficit without making any lineup changes. He did call a TO but until Q picked up a T he went with the same lineup. The same lineup that had trouble scoring. The same lineup with Smith Jr on the bench who had been having a good game.

Then in the second OSU clawed within 2 points for a number of possessions. But those offensive possessions were awful. Their offensive flow was terrible and they had two or three players on the court who were no threat to score. Shannon Scott has taken a step back offensively this season, Trey McDonald doesn't belong on the court with the exception of picking up 5 fouls, and when Sam Thompson isn't confident in his shot he does nothing on offense except looking for a lob.

Now to Aaron Craft. The worst two game stretch I have seen him have in his career. Under 4 minutes with a 6-10 point deficit Craft went on a span of empty possessions that either ended in a turn over or a terrible layup attempt against a center. He needs to play better.

Apparently there is a rumor spreading that Dwight K Schrute threw a party after IU upset OSU because that put the Hoosiers somewhere close to the bubble. Is that true or did they cut down the nets?

Just wait until you see the new trophy case and its location. (hint: The real reason for the roof collapse.)

[dubc47834]

It's easy to say: OSU is not a good conference win this year.

Source: I am an OSU fan

Calling OSU a good conference win is way different that call OSU a good conference team...:beerme:

[Hillsdale87]

BTW...I thought Hanner looked great yesterday. The kid needs more minutes.

His performance certainly gives some hope for next year when Vonleh is likely gone. He's certainly not nearly as skilled as Vonleh, but yesterday he looked like a guy who can at least contribute to a good team. Maybe Hanner's discipline was working on post moves and footwork for 5 hours a day

[Assembly Hall]

It's hard to say what a good conference win is this year(or conversely a bad conference loss) That's why I'm thinking 9-9 may be enough to make the NCAA tournament.

It has been a strange year for sure across the conference landscape. Still some ball to be played, it will be interesting as to how it all plays out.

[Assembly Hall]

His performance certainly gives some hope for next year when Vonleh is likely gone. He's certainly not nearly as skilled as Vonleh, but yesterday he looked like a guy who can at least contribute to a good team. Maybe Hanner's discipline was working on post moves and footwork for 5 hours a day

To be honest, I think they need him this year.

[fearofpopvol1]

Calling OSU a good conference win is way different that call OSU a good conference team...:beerme:

Agreed, but OSU was ranked when IU beat them at least. It definitely will help their tournament shot if they can at least take care of Nebraska and not tank in the conference tourney.

[Razor Shines]

Ok, just win the B1G tournament then. It's simpler that way.

[oregonred]

The B1G is crazy this year. Will be interesting to see what happens in the tourney. Mich St, Mich or Wisconsin could make the FF (odds are one probably will) or they could flame out in the second round. Mich State is probably the best bet for a FF

Nebraska has come out of literally nowhere to be in the top half this year.

OSU. No idea, but they've put themselves in the not so enviable #8/#9 line and a best case second round exit. IU probably needs to make at least the semis of the tourney to get into the Show.

[Assembly Hall]

IU probably needs to make at least the semis of the tourney to get into the Show.

I would agree with that if they beat Michigan at Ann Arbor. But I don't see that happening, I think they need to make it to the finals, and I don't see that happening either.

[Hillsdale87]

I was at last night's game. Disappointing, but certainly not unexpected loss without Vonleh, especially when Yogi has a very cold shooting night.

One thing that drove me crazy was the fans though. When Nebraska moved to zone, IU had a lot of trouble against it, largely because Vonleh wasn't playing and so there was really no threat in the middle of the floor and Nebraska could really spread out their zone. Whenever IU pulled it out up top and the possession was slow, the crowd was booing and yelling loudly. This probably happened on 10 possessions in the second half. The team had just won two big games, so there was really no reason for boos. Also, I would have liked to see some fans draw up some plays against a zone when Devin Davis and Jeremy Hollowell are the "threats" in the post.

One last note, Troy Williams is unbelievably bad on defense. He had a great offensive game, but he makes the wrong decision on defensive switches 75% of the time. Somebody is always scrambling to try to get Troy's man off of a screen. The big 3 that Nebraska hit to push the lead to 62 - 58 was because of a Troy mistake. There really is no reason for a freak athlete with long arms to be bad on defense, so hopefully he pushes himself in the offseason because he is a liability. I've noticed in the last few games that teams are going right at him.

[Hoosier Red]

Good observations Hillsdale. I was there as well. Although I agree the booing started a little early, I think a lot of it stemmed from a perceived lack of urgency. Granted, a zone can make patience look like lethargy, but outside of about a 4 minute stretch, it just looked like they were running in quicksand.

[fearofpopvol1]

If you can't beat Nebraska at home late when you need to, you just don't deserve to go to the tournament. That's not to take anything away from Nebraska as they have improved a lot, but IU has to win that game at home.

I think unless they win at Michigan and get to the final game of the B1G, I think they're out. And understandably so.

[Hoosier Red]

If you can't beat Nebraska at home late when you need to, you just don't deserve to go to the tournament. That's not to take anything away from Nebraska as they have improved a lot, but IU has to win that game at home.

I think unless they win at Michigan and get to the final game of the B1G, I think they're out. And understandably so.

Agreed on the second point at least.

Nebraska's a legit tourney quality team but I think the combination of "bad" losses, NW and PSU at home, ILL & PUR on road make it so you have to win the otherwise 50/50 games.

[Assembly Hall]

They just got beat by a better team. Although Vonleh was out, the Husker's star was saddled with foul trouble. They couldn't hit 3's and they gave up too many. Why didn't Hanner see more minutes? After starting, why did Howard see minutes after that?

Signed,

One disgruntled fan.

[Hillsdale87]

They just got beat by a better team. Although Vonleh was out, the Husker's star was saddled with foul trouble. They couldn't hit 3's and they gave up too many. Why didn't Hanner see more minutes? After starting, why did Howard see minutes after that?

Signed,

One disgruntled fan.

Nebraska was certainly the better team Wednesday night. I actually liked a lot of what IU did, but like you said, they just couldn't hit shots.

I was very surprised to see Hanner sit the whole second half. I thought he did pretty well in the first half, besides botching an open layup at the end of the first half. Devin Davis looked good, but Hollowell played too much. I would love to see Hollowell get more involved, but he should sub in for Troy, not Vonleh. He's not strong enough to take the 5 spot. Hanner should have gotten a lot of Hollowell's minutes

[Hoosier Red]

Nebraska was certainly the better team Wednesday night. I actually liked a lot of what IU did, but like you said, they just couldn't hit shots.

I was very surprised to see Hanner sit the whole second half. I thought he did pretty well in the first half, besides botching an open layup at the end of the first half. Devin Davis looked good, but Hollowell played too much. I would love to see Hollowell get more involved, but he should sub in for Troy, not Vonleh. He's not strong enough to take the 5 spot. Hanner should have gotten a lot of Hollowell's minutes

Its funny. For as much criticism as Crean generally gets for substituting too often, I thought he did it too little in the 2nd half.

Don't have exact numbers, but it seemed as though the 5 man group Yogi-Gordon-Sheehey-Hollowell-Davis was on the court from about the 14 minute mark all the way through the under 8 time out. On the one hand, this was the group that got the game from down 10 to tied.

But after a few posessions where it was tied, I thought they had essentially spent their "collective energy" for lack of a better term, and needed at least one new player to create a spark. I thought Williams in for Gordon, but I wouldn't have objected to Hanner going in for Hollowell either.


Then at the 2 minute mark, the revolving chairs on the three consecutive inbounds plays struck me as odd as well.

[Hillsdale87]

Good observations Hillsdale. I was there as well. Although I agree the booing started a little early, I think a lot of it stemmed from a perceived lack of urgency. Granted, a zone can make patience look like lethargy, but outside of about a 4 minute stretch, it just looked like they were running in quicksand.

I get that. But IU's zone problems were really a result of Vonleh not playing. There really was nothing to do except throw it around the perimeter because there was no inside threat. Would fans have preferred a pass into the post for Jeff Howard or Devin Davis? :) It actually reminded me a little bit of the Mike Davis years when teams would run an extended zone. Davis couldn't coach so he would just have guys take one step back and try to bomb a 3 from there. Wednesday night they were trying to get good shots, but they couldn't fun an effective offense without Vonleh.

The thing that bothered me about the booing is that I don't think it's warranted unless there is a lack of effort, and I felt like they played hard last night.

[Hoosier Red]

The thing that bothered me about the booing is that I don't think it's warranted unless there is a lack of effort, and I felt like they played hard last night.

I agree. I'm not much on booing the home team anyway, it's just not my personality. I've always said that the only thing I'd boo is the lack of effort and even then I consciously limit myself because I realize my perception of their effort probably isn't accurate.

[Revering4Blue]

Hanner not playing at all in the second half is indefensible, no matter how you look at it. Layup after layup for Nebraska and no rim protection to be found.

The more that I think about it, the more that the Hoosiers and Reds situations, specifically, Crean and Walt Jocketty, mirror each other, IMO.

While both Crean and Jocketty were seemingly what both programs (teams) needed at the time, both have made enough mind-numbingly dumb decisions (arguably, fewer in Jocketty's case) that they do not exactly inspire confidence in me that they are the ones to take us where we want to go. This isn't 08' anymore for either team and if we are looking back two years from now and this core of Reds fails to advance in the Playoffs, that's looking at failure right in the eyes. Just as if two years from now, the highlights of Crean's tenure consists of Sweet 16s in '12 and '13, is that really acceptable given the resources at IU?

[SunDeck]

Nobody doesn't play hard on senior night. Booing = not classy.

[Assembly Hall]

I agree. I'm not much on booing the home team anyway, it's just not my personality. I've always said that the only thing I'd boo is the lack of effort and even then I consciously limit myself because I realize my perception of their effort probably isn't accurate.

What about booing the Coach? If I remember right CTC subbed for Will and I heard a chorus of boos. I doubt that was directed at the player.

[Hillsdale87]

What about booing the Coach? If I remember right CTC subbed for Will and I heard a chorus of boos. I doubt that was directed at the player.

I don't remember that, but it's possible. Most of what I remember was during the plays. I would say booing for taking out Will is unwarranted too. He played 38 minutes last night. He needs a rest at some point.

[Assembly Hall]

Another tough loss for the Crimson. When does the NIT schedule come out?:(

[Razor Shines]

That game was winnable. Back to plan A: Win the B1G tournament. nbd

[Assembly Hall]

That game was winnable. Back to plan A: Win the B1G tournament. nbd

Yes it was. No Hanner, no Austin. Gordon and Howard? Davis looked great as did Williams.

[Razor Shines]

Yes it was. No Hanner, no Austin. Gordon and Howard? Davis looked great as did Williams.

I am liking Devin Davis.

[Assembly Hall]

I am liking Devin Davis.

I am too. He is going to be a fine player.

[Hoosier Red]

I am too. He is going to be a fine player.

I have a feeling he's going to frustrate the heck out of fans over the next couple of years.

This is a great improvement in my expectations of him two weeks ago when I thought he'd be a non factor.

[Assembly Hall]

I have a feeling he's going to frustrate the heck out of fans over the next couple of years.

This is a great improvement in my expectations of him two weeks ago when I thought he'd be a non factor.

Crean has to play him dude. That has been an issue this year.

[Hoosier Red]

Crean has to play him dude. That has been an issue this year.

Could be. However, he's also been practically non-existent for the last two months prior to Wednesday night. To pin that solely on Crean is nonsensical.

It isn't as if he was out playing Vonleh and Crean just refused to recognize the hidden brilliance.

[Assembly Hall]

Could be. However, he's also been practically non-existent for the last two months prior to Wednesday night. To pin that solely on Crean is nonsensical.

It isn't as if he was out playing Vonleh and Crean just refused to recognize the hidden brilliance.

What is nonsensical is playing Howard over Davis for the last how many months? Has nothing to do with Vonleh. Howard over Davis? I must have missed Marlin's hidden brilliance as well, but Crean recognizes it.

[Revering4Blue]

What is nonsensical is playing Howard over Davis for the last how many months? Has nothing to do with Vonleh. Howard over Davis? I must have missed Marlin's hidden brilliance as well, but Crean recognizes it.
Granted, Davis had proven to be a turnover machine until recently, but yeah, I agree, especially if you factor in the rebounds per minute and blocks per minute for Double "D"; both are very high.

As for Marlin, he does handle the ball well and really doesn't make mistakes with it, so Marlin's minutes may well have been a by-product of Crean's over-coaching, due to the turnover problem. The trouble with playing Marlin, who can shoot, but is hesitant, to say the least, is that he was often placed on the court with two or three offensive non-factors, such as Howard, which made no sense, IMO.

[Assembly Hall]

To be honest the whole team has been a turnover machine!

[Hoosier Red]

What is nonsensical is playing Howard over Davis for the last how many months? Has nothing to do with Vonleh. Howard over Davis? I must have missed Marlin's hidden brilliance as well, but Crean recognizes it.

Jeff Howard has played an average of under 6 minutes per game in the 23 games he played in. He's obviously limited, but has essentially been in the game to commit fouls and not turn the ball over. He's done those two things pretty well.

Worrying about Johnny Marlin's 43 minutes of playing time this year is just looking for something complain about.

[Assembly Hall]

Jeff Howard has played an average of under 6 minutes per game in the 23 games he played in. He's obviously limited, but has essentially been in the game to commit fouls and not turn the ball over. He's done those two things pretty well.

Worrying about Johnny Marlin's 43 minutes of playing time this year is just looking for something complain about.

HR......really? To foul and not turn the ball over?

If memory serves me right he started getting minutes when CTC benched Hollowell. Ever since then he has been involved in the rotation and has been in there at critical times...even on the offensive side of the ball.

Marlin has been in the same boat to a degree. He started seeing limited minutes in some crucial ballgames. 43 minutes or not he really shouldn't have been on the floor at all.

[Hillsdale87]

I am liking Devin Davis.

I wish he was just a little taller. He's athletic and works hard, but he's undersized in the post. He'll be a lot more useful if he can develop a mid range game in the offseason. Either way, these last few games have been a huge improvement for him!

[Assembly Hall]

I wish he was just a little taller. He's athletic and works hard, but he's undersized in the post. He'll be a lot more useful if he can develop a mid range game in the offseason. Either way, these last few games have been a huge improvement for him!

Right now I would say he is a mix between a young Charles Barkley and A.J. Moye! We got 3 more years of him, I believe upon his graduation...Hoosiers fans will have appreciated him.

[Hoosier Red]

HR......really? To foul and not turn the ball over?

If memory serves me right he started getting minutes when CTC benched Hollowell. Ever since then he has been involved in the rotation and has been in there at critical times...even on the offensive side of the ball.

Marlin has been in the same boat to a degree. He started seeing limited minutes in some crucial ballgames. 43 minutes or not he really shouldn't have been on the floor at all.

It's important to know one's role. :)

Don't misunderstand me, if you want to argue Davis deserved to play ahead of Howard, that's a quite reasonable argument to make. Looking from the outside, I'm inclined to agree with you.

But to make that argument that his play has been fine, he just needed to play more is simply not accurate. Up until the last two games, his play was pretty weak.

Given that Crean is very much a "win your minutes in practice" kind of guy, my guess is that his practices were not much better.

The end of the season gives me a lot of hope that he's going to be a contributor going forward.

[Hoosier Red]

Right now I would say he is a mix between a young Charles Barkley and A.J. Moye! We got 3 more years of him, I believe upon his graduation...Hoosiers fans will have appreciated him.

A lot of young Charles Barkley's end up more "round mound" than "rebound" if you know what I mean. :)

If he could just replicate AJ Moye's career I'd be ecstatic. That's actually a good comparison because if you look at AJ's freshman year, you probably wouldn't expect him to be one of the most beloved Hoosiers four years later.

[Assembly Hall]

It's important to know one's role. :)

Don't misunderstand me, if you want to argue Davis deserved to play ahead of Howard, that's a quite reasonable argument to make. Looking from the outside, I'm inclined to agree with you.

But to make that argument that his play has been fine, he just needed to play more is simply not accurate. Up until the last two games, his play was pretty weak.

Given that Crean is very much a "win your minutes in practice" kind of guy, my guess is that his practices were not much better.

The end of the season gives me a lot of hope that he's going to be a contributor going forward.

Guys need minutes HR. The future of the program doesn't rest with Howard. If I am gonna lose I would do it with Davis and Perrea, not Howard nor Marlin. Heck, why aint Hartman out there instead of Howard? He can foul just as well, and just like Howard, if you don't throw him the ball he aint gonna turn it over.

[Assembly Hall]

A lot of young Charles Barkley's end up more "round mound" than "rebound" if you know what I mean. :)

If he could just replicate AJ Moye's career I'd be ecstatic. That's actually a good comparison because if you look at AJ's freshman year, you probably wouldn't expect him to be one of the most beloved Hoosiers four years later.

I really believe he will be an impact player by the time it is done.

[Hoosier Red]

Guys need minutes HR. The future of the program doesn't rest with Howard. If I am gonna lose I would do it with Davis and Perrea, not Howard nor Marlin.

I certainly don't disagree with either of those statements. Again from the outside, I'd rather have the freshmen playing through the errors and learning as well. I'm sure all things being equal, Crean would as well.

But you're making a different point that Davis needed minutes than saying his play merited more minutes. It didn't. He was pretty much a ghost when he was out there. You could easily make the same argument about Howard which leads me to point # 2.

Right wrong or indifferent, Crean's been fairly consistent that minutes had to be earned in practice. FWIW, I'm not 100% in agreement with that philosophy as IMO it leads to a lot of "try hard, but play poorly" guys getting more minutes than I'd like to see.
So I think it's fair to speculate that Crean wanted Davis, & Perea & Hartman & whatever other players to earn their playing time over guys like Howard and Marlin.
And if you're going to tell the team that, you have to be willing to back it up until they either a)practice how you want them to practice, or b)perform so well in their limited minutes that it basically forces you to play them.

[Assembly Hall]

I certainly don't disagree with either of those statements. Again from the outside, I'd rather have the freshmen playing through the errors and learning as well. I'm sure all things being equal, Crean would as well.

But you're making a different point that Davis needed minutes than saying his play merited more minutes. It didn't. He was pretty much a ghost when he was out there. You could easily make the same argument about Howard which leads me to point # 2.

Right wrong or indifferent, Crean's been fairly consistent that minutes had to be earned in practice. FWIW, I'm not 100% in agreement with that philosophy as IMO it leads to a lot of "try hard, but play poorly" guys getting more minutes than I'd like to see.
So I think it's fair to speculate that Crean wanted Davis, & Perea & Hartman & whatever other players to earn their playing time over guys like Howard and Marlin.
And if you're going to tell the team that, you have to be willing to back it up until they either a)practice how you want them to practice, or b)perform so well in their limited minutes that it basically forces you to play them.

Gonna play Devil's advocate here........Hollowell must be one helluva player in practice!!!!!!! LOL

HR, I understand what you are saying....it was Bobby's philosophy as well.

[Hoosier Red]

Gonna play Devil's advocate here........Hollowell must be one helluva player in practice!!!!!!! LOL

HR, I understand what you are saying....it was Bobby's philosophy as well.

He definitely had the coaching staff smitten with his play prior to the season.

Basically, despite the coachpologist tone of my posts, I'm looking the same as you.

I see a situation where a number of Freshmen missed a lot of opportunities to get more playing time, and I'm left wondering why. I trust there must be a reason for it, even if it's a reason I disagree with.

I simply don't allow myself to stop at simplistic answers that basically require one to assume Crean is an idiot or doesn't want to build the program.(Not to say that's what you were saying.)

[Assembly Hall]

I played for one of the winningest coaches in Indiana high school basketball history. His philosophy was a senior better be better than a freshman. But it was also if I am gonna lose, the freshmen are better for it to give them experience.

CTC has me quite perplexed regarding this particular year. Out of the gate when they were playing "chippies", he didn't seem to get guys minutes that in the B1G season he would have to depend on. His substitutions patterns have me completely puzzled. Hell, who he starts anymore has me puzzled.

The season is lost. Even if they get to the NCAA tournament it will be a short lived experience. Why play Howard? Why play Marlin? Heck, if this is Vonleh's only year, why play him when you are going for a NIT championship?

Yogi is the heart and soul of this team and Will has played admirably but out side of that what do we know other than Troy is an athletic freak. We all knew Noah was a player.

I am just confused.

[Hoosier Red]

I've said before that a lot of the traits that helped Crean climb the ladder to where he is, leave a few blind spots that come back to bite him on occasion.

I don't think Crean ever looks at a game or season as, "well if I'm going to lose anyway," he simply hasn't allowed himself to look at a situation as one where he's going to lose. This may not be the best thing in terms of long term strategy, but it's not likely to be a situation IU fans will have to worry about too often.

Either Crean's teams will be near the top of the B1G, or he won't be the coach for long.

[Revering4Blue]

I wish he was just a little taller. He's athletic and works hard, but he's undersized in the post. He'll be a lot more useful if he can develop a mid range game in the offseason. Either way, these last few games have been a huge improvement for him!

His huge wingspan, which accounts for his high rebounds/blocks per-minute, more than makes up for lack of height. Agree with all other points presented here.

[Assembly Hall]

Either Crean's teams will be near the top of the B1G, or he won't be the coach for long.

That statement right there is what gets me. Not that I disagree with it, because I think it is dead on. Crean has to know it is true as well. He lost 4 starters from last year's team and the 7th man(Elston). To me this year was a free pass for him. I looked at the non-conference schedule and the B1G as well. I didn't expect a SS appearance but I did figure they would go to the dance with right around 20 wins. The frustrating part is they can beat anybody, but yet they can lose to anybody as well. This team doesn't look any better now than it did in December. Young teams are supposed to mature along the way and get better. IMHO it is just bad coaching.

[Hoosier Red]

That statement right there is what gets me. Not that I disagree with it, because I think it is dead on. Crean has to know it is true as well. He lost 4 starters from last year's team and the 7th man(Elston). To me this year was a free pass for him. I looked at the non-conference schedule and the B1G as well. I didn't expect a SS appearance but I did figure they would go to the dance with right around 20 wins. The frustrating part is they can beat anybody, but yet they can lose to anybody as well. This team doesn't look any better now than it did in December. Young teams are supposed to mature along the way and get better. IMHO it is just bad coaching.

That's all true, but the young teams maturing along the way never happens the way we want it to. It's never a linear thing where you see steady progress from one week to the next.

Also, it's important to note that it's not just IU maturing but the other teams as well. As they say in the SEC, "There's a reason the other team gets paid too." ;) :D

Here's hoping the lineup just matches better next year and we see the development in the offseason.

[dubc47834]

Another disappointing loss. Oh well, probly only 1 more game left this year...if that. I wish the best for Sheehey, and hopefully these guys work hard in the offseason and get better. Oh yeah, and pray to God above that Noah Vonleh stays one more year!!!

[Hoosier Red]

Just brutal. Absolutely brutal.

[redsfanmia]

Who is the better in game coach? Mike D or Crean?

[Assembly Hall]

That's all true, but the young teams maturing along the way never happens the way we want it to. It's never a linear thing where you see steady progress from one week to the next.

Also, it's important to note that it's not just IU maturing but the other teams as well. As they say in the SEC, "There's a reason the other team gets paid too." ;) :D

Here's hoping the lineup just matches better next year and we see the development in the offseason.

I suppose so Bro. Thank God I missed the game today.

[Assembly Hall]

Who is the better in game coach? Mike D or Crean?

Interesting question. Davis was at IU for 6 years as Crean has just completed his sixth as well.

Davis, went to 4 NCAA tournaments and one NIT. Reached the finals, got beat in the second round twice, lost in the first round once, and got beat in the first round of the NIT.

Crean has two NCAA tournament appearances. Both Sweet Sixteen exits. The jury is out on whether they will make the NIT this year.

As far as the B1G.....

Crean has one outright B1G regular season championship.

Davis tied for one B1G regular season championship.

Davis took the Hoosiers to their only B1G tourney championship appearance.

Davis' worst year in the B1G was a 7-9 record, the one year he didn't lead the Hoosiers into any post season play.

The year the Hoosiers played in the NIT under Davis they actually finished 4th in the conference with a 10-6 mark.

General ramblings.....

Davis inherited Bobby's boys and did well with them....actually better than Knight did. Davis recruited well outside the state but his non-conference schedule was brutal once he got a hand in making it.

[redsfanmia]

Interesting question. Davis was at IU for 6 years as Crean has just completed his sixth as well.

Davis, went to 4 NCAA tournaments and one NIT. Reached the finals, got beat in the second round twice, lost in the first round once, and got beat in the first round of the NIT.

Crean has two NCAA tournament appearances. Both Sweet Sixteen exits. The jury is out on whether they will make the NIT this year.

As far as the B1G.....

Crean has one outright B1G regular season championship.

Davis tied for one B1G regular season championship.

Davis took the Hoosiers to their only B1G tourney championship appearance.

Davis' worst year in the B1G was a 7-9 record, the one year he didn't lead the Hoosiers into any post season play.

The year the Hoosiers played in the NIT under Davis they actually finished 4th in the conference with a 10-6 mark.

General ramblings.....

Davis inherited Bobby's boys and did well with them....actually better than Knight did. Davis recruited well outside the state but his non-conference schedule was brutal once he got a hand in making it.

I think Mike D was/is a better coach but Crean runs a better program ie a better CEO.

[Hoosier Red]

I suppose so Bro. Thank God I missed the game today.

At this point the only logical assumption i can make is that Crean is an idiot or he's trying to drive the program into the ground.

[Assembly Hall]

I think Mike D was/is a better coach but Crean runs a better program ie a better CEO.

I suppose one could argue that point.

[Assembly Hall]

At this point the only logical assumption i can make is that Crean is an idiot or he's trying to drive the program into the ground.

It is a head scratcher to me. As I mentioned, I didn't watch the game. But my friends once again questioned Crean's substitution patterns? I don't know but I gotta believe the tail end of this season has put him squarely on the hot seat for next year.

[Hoosier Red]

It is a head scratcher to me. As I mentioned, I didn't watch the game. But my friends once again questioned Crean's substitution patterns? I don't know but I gotta believe the tail end of this season has put him squarely on the hot seat for next year.

I'd agree about him being on the hot seat. With the price of his buyout coming down beginning next year, he'll definitely be under pressure to produce some real results.

I tend to try not to overly criticize substitution patterns because it's one of those things that fans never notice a good substitution, and I honestly don't know if Crean ever found 5 guys who played well together consistently.

The turnovers are something that just has to go down. And whether it's on the coach or on the players, the sheer number of unforced errors from guys who should know better(Sheehey and Yogi in particular) just astounds me.

There was a play yesterday when Yogi stared down Vonleh, had three guys surround Vonleh, then threw a weak lob pass. Andy Dalton would have been proud.

[WMR]

It is a head scratcher to me. As I mentioned, I didn't watch the game. But my friends once again questioned Crean's substitution patterns? I don't know but I gotta believe the tail end of this season has put him squarely on the hot seat for next year.

If Vonleh goes pro IU is going to be bad again next year. They're probably only mediocre with him... he wasn't utilized nearly enough this season, IMO.

[Hoosier Red]

If Vonleh goes pro IU is going to be bad again next year. They're probably only mediocre with him... he wasn't utilized nearly enough this season, IMO.

We'll see. One thing blatantly clear is that the team needs some legitimate shooters. All three of the recruits can shoot well. But then again so could Etherington, Hartman, Hollowell, and Ferrell before the put on the Cream and Crimson.

Yogi obviously had his up nights, but he really seemed to fall off toward the end of the year. And that was after an awful freshman year.

[gilpdawg]

The Woodson thing apparently has some legs. I don't buy that it's happening, but there seems to be some smoke there.

[WMR]

We'll see. One thing blatantly clear is that the team needs some legitimate shooters. All three of the recruits can shoot well. But then again so could Etherington, Hartman, Hollowell, and Ferrell before the put on the Cream and Crimson.

Yogi obviously had his up nights, but he really seemed to fall off toward the end of the year. And that was after an awful freshman year.

Yeah, I guess part of it is that I'm becoming much more bearish on incoming freshmen. For obvious reasons. :lol:

Blackmon Jr. can certainly shoot the lights out.

Do you agree that much of IU's fortunes next season hinge on Vonleh?

For Kentucky, I'm pretty much conceding that WCS, Young, and Randle are gonzo. If the twins were to leave as well, it would be disastrous for UK's back court next season. You're then looking at a string bean 5'8" PG Ulis, Hawkins, and Devin Booker as your guards... I'm assuming Cal would add a graduate transfer or something but it would be tough sledding.

[Hoosier Red]

Yeah, I guess part of it is that I'm becoming much more bearish on incoming freshmen. For obvious reasons. :lol:

Blackmon Jr. can certainly shoot the lights out.

Do you agree that much of IU's fortunes next season hinge on Vonleh?


I'm not sure I'd go that far.
They're likely to add another big body somewhere somehow(I'm thinking the Spring Creaning might be especially severe this year.)
And they've honestly done better at times without a big guy to focus on. For two years with Zeller and one year with Vonleh, the guards have alternately struggled with trying too hard to forcing the ball into the big man and forgetting to get the ball to the big man.
My guess is without Vonleh, they're a bit better than this year and will be on the bubble. With him, they're a legit threat to grab the coveted third Sweet Sixteen ring in 4 years.

[Assembly Hall]

Yeah, I guess part of it is that I'm becoming much more bearish on incoming freshmen. For obvious reasons. :lol:

Blackmon Jr. can certainly shoot the lights out.

Do you agree that much of IU's fortunes next season hinge on Vonleh?


To be honest dude I don't know what to think anymore other than Crean might not be the guy for the job.

[Assembly Hall]

The Woodson thing apparently has some legs. I don't buy that it's happening, but there seems to be some smoke there.

Woodson is one of three guys that I always wondered why IU didn't approach in the past. The other two are Randy Wittman and Butch Carter.

[Hillsdale87]

Do you agree that much of IU's fortunes next season hinge on Vonleh?


Yes. Either that or IU needs an unexpected huge step forward by one of Parea, Davis, or Hollowell. The backcourt should be very good, and I expect Troy Williams to be very good. He looked significantly better in the last few weeks of the season and seemed to be developing a semi-reliable jumper. But right now I have no idea where any post scoring is going to come from. There's a huge gap on defense when Vonleh is out as well, so it will be hard to make that up.

With Vonleh, I think IU is a top-15 team. Without him, they're likely not very good.

[Hillsdale87]

His huge wingspan, which accounts for his high rebounds/blocks per-minute, more than makes up for lack of height. Agree with all other points presented here.

I think he's going to be a lot of fun to watch, but my only concern is that he currently has the skill set of a 5, but the size of a 3/4. He'll be a good rebounder and help side defender, but I'm worried about him being able to body up the opponent's center. The wingspan is not going to be as helpful while being backed down in the post.

[Hillsdale87]

Who is the better in game coach? Mike D or Crean?

Crean, and it's not close. That says less about Crean than it does about Davis though. I am fairly certain that Davis is in the bottom 5% of coaches in college basketball. Good recruiter, but absolutely horrible coach.

Crean has won at Marquette and Indiana. Davis won initially at Indiana, but then went straight downhill and has not been great at his later stops. A large part of his turnaround at UAB was just a result of bringing Robert Vaden with him from IU.

Crean built IU back from disaster. Davis drove a great program into the ground. He had 3 straight season like Crean's this season.

I will quickly summarize Mike Davis's coaching philosophy: line up around the 3 point line and bomb away. If the team extends their zone, then just take a step back and continue to bomb away. Rinse and repeat.

[Assembly Hall]

Crean, and it's not close. That says less about Crean than it does about Davis though. I am fairly certain that Davis is in the bottom 5% of coaches in college basketball. Good recruiter, but absolutely horrible coach.

Crean has won at Marquette and Indiana. Davis won initially at Indiana, but then went straight downhill and has not been great at his later stops. A large part of his turnaround at UAB was just a result of bringing Robert Vaden with him from IU.

Crean built IU back from disaster. Davis drove a great program into the ground. He had 3 straight season like Crean's this season.

I will quickly summarize Mike Davis's coaching philosophy: line up around the 3 point line and bomb away. If the team extends their zone, then just take a step back and continue to bomb away. Rinse and repeat.

I am speechless.

[redsfanmia]

Crean, and it's not close. That says less about Crean than it does about Davis though. I am fairly certain that Davis is in the bottom 5% of coaches in college basketball. Good recruiter, but absolutely horrible coach.



Crean built IU back from disaster. Davis drove a great program into the ground. He had 3 straight season like Crean's this season.

I will quickly summarize Mike Davis's coaching philosophy: line up around the 3 point line and bomb away. If the team extends their zone, then just take a step back and continue to bomb away. Rinse and repeat.
Bob Knight refusing to recruit is what drove Indiana into the ground. Mike D took a team to the final game, a coach in the "bottom 5%" would not have done that and that team wasn't overly talented.

[gilpdawg]

People forget how disinterested Knight was in recruiting from around 1993 on. I can't tell you how many people tell me Davis made it to the final game "but it was with Bobby's kids."

Davis did all the recruiting at that point pretty much. No one transferred when Knight was fired.

[redsfanmia]

People forget how disinterested Knight was in recruiting from around 1993 on. I can't tell you how many people tell me Davis made it to the final game "but it was with Bobby's kids."

Davis did all the recruiting at that point pretty much. No one transferred when Knight was fired.
If Knight coached that team they would have lost in the first round, those last few Knight teams looked like they wanted to lose I the first round of the tournament.

[Hillsdale87]

Bob Knight refusing to recruit is what drove Indiana into the ground. Mike D took a team to the final game, a coach in the "bottom 5%" would not have done that and that team wasn't overly talented.

Indiana was a good, but not great program for Knight's last 5 years. His lack of recruiting had nothing to do with driving the program down. In fact, Davis's greatest success was with Knight's players. Once Knight's players had graduated, the program went downhill.

Getting to the final game was great, but that was a team that got hot at the right time, not a great team. They entered the tournament 20-11 and unranked. They also had a pretty nice path to the title game, playing a 13, 12, and 10 seed in their path to the Final Four. Beating Duke was a legitimate, and great, win, and one of my favorite games of all time so I'm not trying to deny that Davis did some things right.

Davis's system worked great for that team. He had a lot of shooters, and he had a legitimate inside threat in Jeffries that could score and was a great passer if help came. But there was also very little scouting on Davis at that time. Once teams began to adjust to his pro-style offense, he was unable to do anything, and he had 3 straight horrible years before moving on.

[Hillsdale87]

People forget how disinterested Knight was in recruiting from around 1993 on. I can't tell you how many people tell me Davis made it to the final game "but it was with Bobby's kids."

Davis did all the recruiting at that point pretty much. No one transferred when Knight was fired.

But "it was with Bobby's kids" is an important point because, while Knight may have been disinterested in recruiting, he still had final say of who he wanted to bring in. And while Davis may have done the majority of the work (and he's really a great recruiter), Knight was the CEO. It may just be random chance, but there is a correlation between Knight's players graduating and the basketball team becoming significantly worse.

[Assembly Hall]

Once again I am speechless. Some of you fellas better go back and read through some previous information posted in this thread.

[redsfanmia]

Indiana was a good, but not great program for Knight's last 5 years. His lack of recruiting had nothing to do with driving the program down. In fact, Davis's greatest success was with Knight's players. Once Knight's players had graduated, the program went downhill.

Getting to the final game was great, but that was a team that got hot at the right time, not a great team. They entered the tournament 20-11 and unranked. They also had a pretty nice path to the title game, playing a 13, 12, and 10 seed in their path to the Final Four. Beating Duke was a legitimate, and great, win, and one of my favorite games of all time so I'm not trying to deny that Davis did some things right.

Davis's system worked great for that team. He had a lot of shooters, and he had a legitimate inside threat in Jeffries that could score and was a great passer if help came. But there was also very little scouting on Davis at that time. Once teams began to adjust to his pro-style offense, he was unable to do anything, and he had 3 straight horrible years before moving on.

His three "horrible" years were just like Crean's year this year only Mike D's worst record in the league was 7-9 and he played a legitimate preseason schedule. Crean only schedules powder puffs and only at home, their non conference schedule was embarrassing and they still only won 17 games.

[Hillsdale87]

Crean, and it's not close. That says less about Crean than it does about Davis though. I am fairly certain that Davis is in the bottom 5% of coaches in college basketball. Good recruiter, but absolutely horrible coach.


I should clarify this point. When I say I think Davis is a horrible coach (bottom 5% may be hyperbole), I'm only talking X's and O's. Davis was a great recruiter and brought in talent. Because of his recruiting ability, he certainly has a greater chance to lead a successful program than many coaches. That said, if Davis and another coach were facing off with two equally talented teams, I would bet on the other team almost every time.

[redsfanmia]

I should clarify this point. When I say I think Davis is a horrible coach (bottom 5% may be hyperbole), I'm only talking X's and O's. Davis was a great recruiter and brought in talent. Because of his recruiting ability, he certainly has a greater chance to lead a successful program than many coaches. That said, if Davis and another coach were facing off with two equally talented teams, I would bet on the other team almost every time.

I don't think Davis was a great recruiter, who did he recruit? Bracey Wright? D.j. White? Not exactly Scott May and Cal Cheaney. Crean has had more talent the last few years than Mike D ever had and has not had any more success than Mike D had.

[Assembly Hall]

His three "horrible" years were just like Crean's year this year only Mike D's worst record in the league was 7-9 and he played a legitimate preseason schedule. Crean only schedules powder puffs and only at home, their non conference schedule was embarrassing and they still only won 17 games.

I am gonna tell you about that season they went 7-9 in the B1G...Here are a few of their non-conference opponents.

Vanderbilt

Xavier

Wake Forest

Missouri

Notre Dame

Butler

Kentucky

Temple

[Hillsdale87]

I don't think Davis was a great recruiter, who did he recruit? Bracey Wright? D.j. White? Not exactly Scott May and Cal Cheaney. Crean has had more talent the last few years than Mike D ever had and has not had any more success than Mike D had.

Bracey was the #1 player at his position. DJ White was a 5 star recruit and became an All-American under Sampson. They may not have turned into Scott May and Cheaney, but they were very highly thought of coming in. As others have mentioned, Davis was also the primary recruiter in the late Knight years, and the class that came in for Davis's first season was a highly ranked class with Jeffries and Moye. Marshall Strickland was a top recruit, Robert Vaden was a top recruit. There were a lot of good players.

When I said that Davis drove the program into the ground, that really wasn't fair. He left behind a very talented team for Sampson to take over (who really did drive it into the ground). He just could not do as well with that talent as other coaches would have.

[Hillsdale87]

I am gonna tell you about that season they went 7-9 in the B1G...Here are a few of their non-conference opponents.

Vanderbilt

Xavier

Wake Forest

Missouri

Notre Dame

Butler

Kentucky

Temple

Yea that's a brutal schedule. IU only played 2 teams of that quality non-conference this year. I wish this team had played more of those teams so that I didn't have to use my tickets to go watch LIU-Brooklyn. That said, this team would not have lost any games 80-41, 100-67, 79-45.

[redsfanmia]

I am gonna tell you about that season they went 7-9 in the B1G...Here are a few of their non-conference opponents.

Vanderbilt

Xavier

Wake Forest

Missouri

Notre Dame

Butler

Kentucky

Temple

Exactly, Crean will never play a schedule like that.

[redsfanmia]

Yea that's a brutal schedule. IU only played 2 teams of that quality non-conference this year. I wish this team had played more of those teams so that I didn't have to use my tickets to go watch LIU-Brooklyn. That said, this team would not have lost any games 80-41, 100-67, 79-45.

2? Syracuse and who?

[WMR]

I appreciate the passion, IU fans.

[gilpdawg]

2? Syracuse and who?

UCONN?

[Revering4Blue]

I don't think Davis was a great recruiter, who did he recruit? Bracey Wright? D.j. White? Not exactly Scott May and Cal Cheaney. Crean has had more talent the last few years than Mike D ever had and has not had any more success than Mike D had.

Plus, many have forgotten that Davis also had Josh Smith committed to IU in 04' before Smith declared for the NBA Draft. Davis also inexplicably stopped recruiting Aaron Gray, who was a solid Center for Pitt. By all accounts, one more phone call to Gray would have secured Gray for IU in '03. I also cannot imagine that Sampson, even without reaching into the proverbial cookie jar, or Crean would have allowed in state talent, such as Oden and Conley, to exit the state of Indiana as Davis did.

[Revering4Blue]

I think he's going to be a lot of fun to watch, but my only concern is that he currently has the skill set of a 5, but the size of a 3/4. He'll be a good rebounder and help side defender, but I'm worried about him being able to body up the opponent's center. The wingspan is not going to be as helpful while being backed down in the post.

If Davis is forced to play center for any length of time, we may be in trouble.

[Assembly Hall]

Plus, many have forgotten that Davis also had Josh Smith committed to IU in 04' before Smith declared for the NBA Draft. Davis also inexplicably stopped recruiting Aaron Gray, who was a solid Center for Pitt. By all accounts, one more phone call to Gray would have secured Gray for IU in '03. I also cannot imagine that Sampson, even without reaching into the proverbial cookie jar, or Crean would have allowed in state talent, such as Oden and Conley, to exit the state of Indiana as Davis did.

I remember that well. But I had forgotten about the Aaron Gray recruitment. I think Oden and Conley are bad examples to lay on Davis. Both were Indy boys and knew Matta well from his days at Butler. Davis continued what he did as assistant once he became the head coach. Basically go after top notch talent from out of state. And by out of state it was mainly the south.

[Assembly Hall]

I alluded earlier to 04-05. A season in which Indiana went 10-6 in the B1G but only landed a NIT berth because of their non-conference schedule and the losses it produced. How is this for a 6 game stretch?

North Carolina
Connecticut
Notre Dame
Kentucky
Missouri
Charlotte(Which was a dang fine team that year).

BTW, everyone of those games were a loss.

[Assembly Hall]

I appreciate the passion, IU fans.

I appreciate the comment, UK fan.:thumbup:

[redsfanmia]

I remember that well. But I had forgotten about the Aaron Gray recruitment. I think Oden and Conley are bad examples to lay on Davis. Both were Indy boys and knew Matta well from his days at Butler. Davis continued what he did as assistant once he became the head coach. Basically go after top notch talent from out of state. And by out of state it was mainly the south.

Mike D was on the hot seat and I don't think Oden and Conley wanted any part of the mess that was IU basketball at that time, same reason Gordon committed to Illinois.

[Assembly Hall]

Mess at that time? If you look at shear numbers Davis is well ahead of Crean after 6 seasons.

[Hoosier Red]

Mike D was on the hot seat and I don't think Oden and Conley wanted any part of the mess that was IU basketball at that time, same reason Gordon committed to Illinois.

I've heard stories(can't vouch for their validity) that Davis wasn't particularly interested in Conley and didn't put too much effort into his recruitment. Which of course was folly when Mike Conley Sr. was the AAU coach and was going to have a lot of say in where Oden went. I'll agree about Gordon for sure though.

While Davis had a better resume after 6 years, it's easy to see why he was on the hot seat whereas Crean is not yet.

[redsfanmia]

I've heard stories(can't vouch for their validity) that Davis wasn't particularly interested in Conley and didn't put too much effort into his recruitment. Which of course was folly when Mike Conley Sr. was the AAU coach and was going to have a lot of say in where Oden went. I'll agree about Gordon for sure though.

While Davis had a better resume after 6 years, it's easy to see why he was on the hot seat whereas Crean is not yet.
I think Crean's seat is getting warm. I think his act is starting to wear thin with a great majority of the fan base

[Assembly Hall]

I've heard stories(can't vouch for their validity) that Davis wasn't particularly interested in Conley and didn't put too much effort into his recruitment. Which of course was folly when Mike Conley Sr. was the AAU coach and was going to have a lot of say in where Oden went. I'll agree about Gordon for sure though.

While Davis had a better resume after 6 years, it's easy to see why he was on the hot seat whereas Crean is not yet.

Why was Davis on the hot seat? For two sub-par seasons? For not getting the top in-state talent? Because he made it to a championship game and lost. It couldn't have been his record in the B1G tournament?

BTW, as far as I can tell Crean recruits the same way as Davis with one minor difference.......Crean prefers guys from out east!

[redsfanmia]

Why was Davis on the hot seat? For two sub-par seasons? For not getting the top in-state talent? Because he made it to a championship game and lost. It couldn't have been his record in the B1G tournament?

BTW, as far as I can tell Crean recruits the same way as Davis with one minor difference.......Crean prefers guys from out east!
Davis was on the hot seat mainly because he was not Bob Knight and he never fully had the support of the fans. Crean to his credit is recruiting Indiana.

[Assembly Hall]

Davis was on the hot seat mainly because he was not Bob Knight and he never fully had the support of the fans. Crean to his credit is recruiting Indiana.

No support? Then why the contract he received? In his second year he took "Bobby's Boys" to a title game.

Crean as recruited top notch guys from this state like Zellar and Yogi....after that what? Etherington? Hartman? Davis? Where did DeShaun Thomas go? Gary Harris? Mitch McCrary? Hows about Bluiett and Lyles? And maybe Lyle?

[redsfanmia]

No support? Then why the contract he received? In his second year he took "Bobby's Boys" to a title game.
?

Do you really think Mike D had the support of the fan base?

[SunDeck]

I think there was a lot of good will after the NCAA run, but I could never get past the feeling that people here felt he stabbed RMK in the back.
Which I really never felt was quite fair.

[Assembly Hall]

Do you really think Mike D had the support of the fan base?

He never had my support...but he sure as hell didn't run the program into the ground. He was named the interim coach and promptly led them to a B1G tournament championship game. He was then awarded a 5 year contract. I can not emphasize enough that Davis' non-conference schedule led to his demise, nor can I emphasize enough that I never felt comfortable with him. At the time I thought Steve Alford deserved a shot at the job.........but it wasn't meant to be.

[Assembly Hall]

I think there was a lot of good will after the NCAA run, but I could never get past the feeling that people here felt he stabbed RMK in the back.
Which I really never felt was quite fair.

I think that Davis was listening to too much Miles Brand. Davis was at IU for a reason. Knight loved CM Newton and Davis played for him at 'Bama.

[Hoosier Red]

AH, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? No one is arguing that Crean has had more success than Davis, or that the fan base is happy to see him continue if the program struggles. But to compare Crean and Davis at year 6 and ignore the multiple factors outside just the win/loss record is to completely miss the point.

[SunDeck]

He never had my support...but he sure as hell didn't run the program into the ground. He was named the interim coach and promptly led them to a B1G tournament championship game. He was then awarded a 5 year contract. I can not emphasize enough that Davis' non-conference schedule led to his demise, nor can I emphasize enough that I never felt comfortable with him. At the time I thought Steve Alford deserved a shot at the job.........but it wasn't meant to be.

I felt the same way about Alford, but I don't feel that way about him anymore. And if I'm honest I had very high hopes for what Crean could do here, which I probably based on his record of frustrating Bob Huggins, which pleased me to no end, and so I may have over valued him. Which all goes to show that the right coach may be an elusive thing; really, who'd have thunk Bob Knight would do what he did? He certainly was an up and comer when he went from West Point to IU, but I think he blew their expectations out of the water.

[Revering4Blue]

After it was left out of the NIT field, Indiana opted not to play in the College Basketball Invitational, the 16-team tournament that would’ve been the Hoosier’s last chance at postseason. The Hoosiers’ 2013-14 season is over.

When asked to confirm that IU would not play in the CBI, IU athletic director Fred Glass said via text message, “No. We’re Indiana.”

I'm fine with higher expectations and all, and fine with -- considering that two MickeyD's All Americans suited up for IU -- this dumpster fire of a season ending (Sheehey deserved a better ending to his career, though), but the AD's comments reek of arrogance, IMO, of which I'm not at all okay with.

[Assembly Hall]

AH, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? No one is arguing that Crean has had more success than Davis, or that the fan base is happy to see him continue if the program struggles. But to compare Crean and Davis at year 6 and ignore the multiple factors outside just the win/loss record is to completely miss the point.

This all started with a question being asked comparing Davis and Crean. The comments were made saying Davis ran the program into the ground. I am really not trying to make any point, just looking at the facts. It seems no one wants to give Davis credit for what he stepped into, which was a very volatile situation. He handled it admirably for the first few years.

[Assembly Hall]

I'm fine with higher expectations and all, and fine with -- considering that two MickeyD's All Americans suited up for IU -- this dumpster fire of a season ending (Sheehey deserved a better ending to his career, though), but the AD's comments reek of arrogance, IMO, of which I'm not at all okay with.

I am with you 100%.

[Assembly Hall]

I felt the same way about Alford, but I don't feel that way about him anymore. And if I'm honest I had very high hopes for what Crean could do here, which I probably based on his record of frustrating Bob Huggins, which pleased me to no end, and so I may have over valued him. Which all goes to show that the right coach may be an elusive thing; really, who'd have thunk Bob Knight would do what he did? He certainly was an up and comer when he went from West Point to IU, but I think he blew their expectations out of the water.

I remember watching an interview with Bobby talking about him landing the IU job. He was given the job to clean up the program and give it some discipline. He talked about coming to IU and the plan he had...which was to compete for a national title in 4 years. In two he was in the FF....he admitted that he didn't really expect that.

[WVRed]

Wow. This sounds a lot like UK fans wanting Tubby gone.

I always remember how Davis lost a lot of in state talent while in Bloomington, and that was before Conley. I never understood why he never recruited Indiana hard.

Crean has lost some key in state recruits as well. Could be why his act is wearing thin.

[Chip R]

I am with you 100%.

It does smack of arrogance but these minor tournaments are money losers - especially if you play on the road.

[Hoosier Red]

It's true that he's lost a fair number of in-state recruits. I think I saw yesterday there were 9 players in the B1G championship game from Indiana. The losses of guys from NW Indiana is definitely why Painter is on the hot seat. (Dawson, Albrecht, Robinson) are all from the Chicagoland Region which has traditionally been Purdue's bread basket.

[Wonderful Monds]

Weren't there some making a case for IU being in the actual tournament not days ago?

[Revering4Blue]

OTTOMH, HMP was the first significant NW Indiana IU recruit in years, which tells you all that you need to know about how untapped that area has become -- a significant source of talent within the state -- to the Hoosiers since Knight in his heyday. IMO, regardless of whomever is manning the proverbial IU ship in the future, that trend must end if we hope to see more NC banners anytime in the near future.

[WVRed]

It's true that he's lost a fair number of in-state recruits. I think I saw yesterday there were 9 players in the B1G championship game from Indiana. The losses of guys from NW Indiana is definitely why Painter is on the hot seat. (Dawson, Albrecht, Robinson) are all from the Chicagoland Region which has traditionally been Purdue's bread basket.

Kentucky alone has gotten Marquis Teague and Trey Lyles.

If IU were to change coaches who would top the list?

[Revering4Blue]

Kentucky alone has gotten Marquis Teague and Trey Lyles.

If IU were to change coaches who would top the list?

Firing Crean now would be insane, IMO, for at least two reasons:

1)Likely Hasta La Vista to Blackman Jr, Johnson and company.

2)The Ben Howland/UCLA saga -- ie: turned down by virtually every "hot" coach due to perceived bad timing for the firing -- would rear it's ugly head at IU.

Right now, this season, IMO, equivocates to the '04 season under Davis. Simply put, IMO, Crean cannot afford an equivalent to the Mike Davis '05 season, or it may well then be time for a change.

Sorry, IU faithful, but Woodson, Wittman, Crews -- Coaches with ties to IU, which I feel are overblown when it comes to selecting an IU head coach -- don't top my list. And let's face it, as I stated before, Brad Stevens isn't leaving the Celtics for IU at this point. The usual suspects, Marshall and Smart, are where I would turn my attention. Smart, in particular, with his system and access to athletes that he could only dream about at VCU, could be a monster at IU. And I'll still believe that even if his VCU team loses to SFA in the first round this year, which is entirely possible. Smart, however, may be biding his time waiting for Donovan to move on from Florida. But, as of right now, he's my top semi-realistic choice.

[WVRed]

Right now, this season, IMO, equivocates to the '04 season under Davis. Simply put, IMO, Crean cannot afford an equivalent to the Mike Davis '05 season, or it may well then be time for a change.

I don't think Crean would be fired after this season, but like you said, if he follows it up with a lackluster season it's entirely possible.

JMO but he has really underachieved at IU when he has had good teams. Losing to Kentucky in 2012 was understandable given that team was a buzzsaw. Not building off that success and advancing farther and then regressing would be pretty frustrating.

[Revering4Blue]

I don't think Crean would be fired after this season, but like you said, if he follows it up with a lackluster season it's entirely possible.

JMO but he has really underachieved at IU when he has had good teams. Losing to Kentucky in 2012 was understandable given that team was a buzzsaw. Not building off that success and advancing farther and then regressing would be pretty frustrating.

It isn't so much losing to Syracuse in the '13 Sweet Sixteen, it's how they lost that is/was disconcerting, as they looked totally unprepared for the 2-3 Zone. Nevertheless, regression this year was inevitable, even had Fischer remained with the team, as nearly everything had to go right for a return to the Sweet Sixteen. IMO, the losses of Abell and Creek were larger factors than losing Fischer, especially given Crean's reluctance to play two bigs together... Abell in particular, the kid had ice-water in his veins.

[WVRed]

It isn't so much losing to Syracuse in the '13 Sweet Sixteen, it's how they lost that is/was disconcerting, as they looked totally unprepared for the 2-3 Zone. Nevertheless, regression this year was inevitable, even had Fischer remained with the team, as nearly everything had to go right for a return to the Sweet Sixteen. IMO, the losses of Abell and Creek were larger factors than losing Fischer, especially given Crean's reluctance to play two bigs together... Abell in particular, the kid had ice-water in his veins.

There's no real reason for a team that has the talent pool at Indiana to miss the tournament, period. Regression is one thing but Indiana is like Kentucky, should be an automatic every year for the tournament

[redsfanmia]

It isn't so much losing to Syracuse in the '13 Sweet Sixteen, it's how they lost that is/was disconcerting, as they looked totally unprepared for the 2-3 Zone. Nevertheless, regression this year was inevitable, even had Fischer remained with the team, as nearly everything had to go right for a return to the Sweet Sixteen. IMO, the losses of Abell and Creek were larger factors than losing Fischer, especially given Crean's reluctance to play two bigs together... Abell in particular, the kid had ice-water in his veins.
Crean asked Creek to leave the program.

[Razor Shines]

Weren't there some making a case for IU being in the actual tournament not days ago?

Some were saying there was a path to getting an at large bid but it involved beating OSU, Nebraska and Michigan and then winning a game in the conference tournament. No one made a case for an at large bid after losing to both Nebraska and Michigan.

[Revering4Blue]

Crean asked Creek to leave the program.

By all accounts, that's true, or at the very least, Creek was informed that his minutes were going to reduced to accommodate incoming freshman. I wasn't attempting to imply otherwise. But, at the end of the day, a loss is a loss, but this one stings because the Head Coach made a grievous error with -- speaking in Pro terms -- roster construction.

Here's hoping that Creek and George Washington enjoy a decent run in this NCAA tourney and that Creek someday will land in the NBA.

[Assembly Hall]

There's no real reason for a team that has the talent pool at Indiana to miss the tournament, period. Regression is one thing but Indiana is like Kentucky, should be an automatic every year for the tournament)

That is the way I see it as well or at least I want to see it that way. I have been pretty hard on my Hoosiers this year. I knew they lost 4 starters, 3 key guys off the bench(1 to graduation and 2 to transfer), and were gonna be young. Halfway through the year I started looking at Crean's in game decisions and didn't like what I was seeing. Aside from Crean the B1G was just brutal this year for a young team. Top to bottom, there were no chippies. IU had their chances just fell short in the end.

[bucksfan2]

There's no real reason for a team that has the talent pool at Indiana to miss the tournament, period. Regression is one thing but Indiana is like Kentucky, should be an automatic every year for the tournament

The problem for IU basketball is they continue to think like this when you have Matta and Izzo on their boarders running successful programs. IU isn't the program it was under Knight, it isn't the program where you said "IU is recruiting me!!!!" It has become a program forced to battle with the big boys, big boys who have as much or more money to spend and better facilities to tout.

[Hoosier Red]

The problem for IU basketball is they continue to think like this when you have Matta and Izzo on their boarders running successful programs. IU isn't the program it was under Knight, it isn't the program where you said "IU is recruiting me!!!!" It has become a program forced to battle with the big boys, big boys who have as much or more money to spend and better facilities to tout.

Not to mention a couple of notable programs on the southern border. But there have always been talented programs inside and surrounding the Indiana state borders. Prior to IU's last two National Championship seasons, Louisville won one. Kentucky has always been powerful. In the 70's Michigan State was every bit the juggernaut that it is today. In the 70's and 80's Purdue and Notre Dame were much more powerful than they are today.

But still, there's more than enough talent in-state, and within Indiana's reach that waiting for the NIT invitation should really never be an acceptable season. It doesn't mean that it won't happen on occasion, but if you set the NCAA tournament as the standard for minimally acceptable season. On the rare occasions you don't make it, there should be some serious soul searching and re-evaluation within the program.

What bothers me about this season isn't just that they didn't make the tournament. Rather what bothers me is that not making the tournament seems to be accepted on some level. There seems to be an acceptance that this team was "young" and will grow up. But next year's team will be depending on at least two freshmen to perform at a very high level. Without SERIOUS improvement from at least two of the sophomores turning into juniors, this team will be a mess next year.

[Assembly Hall]

The problem for IU basketball is they continue to think like this when you have Matta and Izzo on their boarders running successful programs. IU isn't the program it was under Knight, it isn't the program where you said "IU is recruiting me!!!!" It has become a program forced to battle with the big boys, big boys who have as much or more money to spend and better facilities to tout.

That is not true at all concerning the border schools whatsoever. Under Knight, even in his glory days, the touch states had powerhouse programs. Michigan, Michigan St, Ohio St, UK, Louisville and even Illinois all were pretty dang good.

[Assembly Hall]

What bothers me about this season isn't just that they didn't make the tournament. Rather what bothers me is that not making the tournament seems to be accepted on some level. There seems to be an acceptance that this team was "young" and will grow up. But next year's team will be depending on at least two freshmen to perform at a very high level. Without SERIOUS improvement from at least two of the sophomores turning into juniors, this team will be a mess next year.

I couldn't agree more!

And BTW Louisville won 2 titles in the 80's.

[Assembly Hall]

There's no real reason for a team that has the talent pool at Indiana to miss the tournament, period. Regression is one thing but Indiana is like Kentucky, should be an automatic every year for the tournament

I agree to a degree. There are differences between the two schools. The biggest IMO is the conference in which they play in.

[Hoosier Red]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24498466/indiana-freshman-star-noah-vonleh-will-enter-the-2014-nba-draft
Vonleh to the NBA. Certainly not unexpected but leaves a GIANT hole none the less.

[Razor Shines]

Next year is gonna suck. If they get Anthony Lee they'll probably have a similar year to this one.

[Razor Shines]

Etherington asking for a release.

http://www.insidethehall.com/2014/03/24/report-austin-etherington-asks-for-release/

[Hoosier Red]

But you can't criticize next year because that team will be young. :)

[Boston Red]

Hollowell, too? What's the deal?

[Razor Shines]

Well I had kinda hoped he would stay. He's so talented that maybe if he put it together he might have been something.

[Razor Shines]

Now Johnny Marlin is also leaving. Might as well cancel next season.

[Hillsdale87]

Next year is gonna suck. If they get Anthony Lee they'll probably have a similar year to this one.

If they get Anthony Lee I think they should have a pretty good year. Lee should basically replace Vonleh's numbers. This year's freshmen were improving a lot towards the end of the season, and there are some good freshmen guards coming in. The big thing this year's team lacked was shooters, and Blackmon and Johnson will be huge improvements in that area. Things definitely have to go right (and they certainly didn't this year), but if Lee chooses Indiana, the talent is there to have a good year.

[Hoosier Red]

Best line I've seen so far.... @jfeldy17: I bet Tom Crean starts tweeting verses from Exodus this week #iubb

[WVRed]

Something called an Eron Harris is from Indianapolis and is transferring from WVU.

[Razor Shines]

He wants to be close to home so I assume he'll transfer to IUPUI.

[Revering4Blue]

If they get Anthony Lee I think they should have a pretty good year. Lee should basically replace Vonleh's numbers. This year's freshmen were improving a lot towards the end of the season, and there are some good freshmen guards coming in. The big thing this year's team lacked was shooters, and Blackmon and Johnson will be huge improvements in that area. Things definitely have to go right (and they certainly didn't this year), but if Lee chooses Indiana, the talent is there to have a good year.

I don't disagree at all with anything here. I realize that I've been a negative Ned lately, so I'll point out a few additional potential positives:

* Hollowell's decision to transfer may well result in Josh Cunningham donning cream and crimson.

* With or without Lee, from everything I've read, the top JUCO centers, as well as the top unsigned centers (Myles Turner, unfortunately, the exception) have IU on their respective radars. Even if Lee joins the Hoosiers, it seems a safe bet that another big man will be added. Having stated all of that, it's imperative that HMP improves his overall game.

* Yeah, we know that Blackmon Jr. and Johnson are reputed to be good shooters (as is Max Hoetzel), but they are also good ball-handlers, which likely results in Yogi Ferrell actually benefiting from more open looks, which rarely occurred last year.

[Assembly Hall]

Statistically from a production standpoint the Hoosiers arent losing much other than minutes. Quite a few would say Hollowell got too many and AE didn't get enough. However I raise an eyebrow to 3 guys leaving at the same time. Oh well, some more spring "Creaning". Tommy has it all figured out how the Hoosiers can improve and make it to the NIT next year!

[WMR]

Best line I've seen so far.... @jfeldy17: I bet Tom Crean starts tweeting verses from Exodus this week #iubb

Self-Creaning isn't just for ovens anymore.

[WVRed]

He wants to be close to home so I assume he'll transfer to IUPUI.

Or Butler. How far is Bloomington from Indianapolis?

Eron Harris wasn't happy that Staten got the limelight, according to my Mountaineer friends. If WVU had any other coach than Huggins they would be on their way out.

[Assembly Hall]

Or Butler. How far is Bloomington from Indianapolis?

Not far...an hour or so. Aside from Hollowell from IU, Ronnie Johnson(Indy guy) left Purdue. A few rumors have Hollowell and RJ wanting to play together........maybe Harris will join them?

[SunDeck]

Those boys are going to need name tags next year.

[WVRed]

Those boys are going to need name tags next year.

Could break tradition and have names on the back of the jerseys. :-P

[Hoosier Red]

Could break tradition and have names on the back of the jerseys. :-P

Suggesting such blasphemy would get Crean fired faster than missing the NCAA 4 out of 6 seasons. :)

[WMR]

I've got just one question for you, IU fans: Are you ready for "THE ONSLAUGHT"?

[Hoosier Red]

I've got just one question for you, IU fans: Are you ready for "THE ONSLAUGHT"?

No. Probably not.

[Razor Shines]

I've got just one question for you, IU fans: Are you ready for "THE ONSLAUGHT"?

Yes we're aware there are plenty of jokes to be made in going from "The Movement" to "The Onslaught". And most of them poop related.

[WMR]

Yes we're aware there are plenty of jokes to be made in going from "The Movement" to "The Onslaught". And most of them poop related.

What about placing more emphasis on Peter Jurkin?

[Hoosier Red]

What about placing more emphasis on Peter Jurkin?
There looked to be a little too much peter jurkin going on instead of basketball to begin with.

[Razor Shines]

Yogi and Stanford arrested for minor consumption and possession of fake IDs. No worries, this is part of The Onslaught, they were simply drumming up support for the team at local bars.

Also, turns out, no IU cannot buy a shot.


http://fox59.com/2014/04/25/two-iu-basketball-players-arrested-on-charges-of-minor-consumption-possession-of-fake-id/#axzz2zw1HLh2C

[Assembly Hall]

I have no problem with "boys just being boys". But 1 AM Friday morning? Couldn't they have waited until Friday night or Saturday morning? I suspect CTC put the boys through a grueling tanning bed session late Thursday night and Yogi and Stan were just looking for some brew to get rid of that coconut oil smell...or maybe that coconut oil smell made them crave some sort of "beach cocktail"? Either way I hope this incident is the topper on what was a very frustrating season. Time to move forward and get to working on those NIT brackets for next year.

[WVRed]

I'm betting a bajillion dollars Tom Crean is fired after this season.

[Hillsdale87]

I have no problem with "boys just being boys". But 1 AM Friday morning? Couldn't they have waited until Friday night or Saturday morning? I suspect CTC put the boys through a grueling tanning bed session late Thursday night and Yogi and Stan were just looking for some brew to get rid of that coconut oil smell...or maybe that coconut oil smell made them crave some sort of "beach cocktail"? Either way I hope this incident is the topper on what was a very frustrating season. Time to move forward and get to working on those NIT brackets for next year.

It's Little 500 week, so everything is crazy here in Bloomington right now. For any week that this would happen, it's not surprising that it would be this week. Still no way this should happen though. I have no idea how the most famous, recognizable person in Bloomington thought he could get by with a fake ID though.

And don't be so pessimistic about next season... yet. If Crean lands one either Byron Wesley or Justin Martin who are both eligible to play next year, IU's top 7 is going to be one of the best in the Big 10. If they get Wesley, they'll probably lead the Big 10 in scoring. Even without one of those guys, the team will be better.

[Assembly Hall]

It's Little 500 week, so everything is crazy here in Bloomington right now. For any week that this would happen, it's not surprising that it would be this week. Still no way this should happen though. I have no idea how the most famous, recognizable person in Bloomington thought he could get by with a fake ID though.

And don't be so pessimistic about next season... yet. If Crean lands one either Byron Wesley or Justin Martin who are both eligible to play next year, IU's top 7 is going to be one of the best in the Big 10. If they get Wesley, they'll probably lead the Big 10 in scoring. Even without one of those guys, the team will be better.


I am optimistic about next season........looking forward to plenty more ice fishing since I don't have to stay home and watch the Hoosiers play! Fish on!

[Assembly Hall]

You got that kind of money? LOL Crean can take the AD with him as well. Wouldn't bother me one bit.

[redsfanmia]

You got that kind of money? LOL Crean can take the AD with him as well. Wouldn't bother me one bit.

Clappy can go today but I think Fred Glass is doing a good job.

[WVRed]

You got that kind of money? LOL Crean can take the AD with him as well. Wouldn't bother me one bit.

To be honest I don't think a bajillion is a form of currency, so I'm safe. :-)

[Assembly Hall]

It is in the "Looney Tunes" world! LMAO If Crean is here in 2 years I am gonna follow the local college team. That be the Grace Lancers.

[Assembly Hall]

Clappy can go today but I think Fred Glass is doing a good job.

Really? Is this the AD that just paid $750,000 to South Florida to buy them out of a contract so we can play Florida International in football? IMO Glass is walking on himself right now. My tax dollars go to that school.

[Hoosier Red]

Really? Is this the AD that just paid $750,000 to South Florida to buy them out of a contract so we can play Florida International in football? IMO Glass is walking on himself right now. My tax dollars go to that school.

What about that is bad? There is only one goal for IU Football right now. 6 wins. Once we get a whiff of the glorious smell of mediocrity, we can discuss playing a tougher opponent.

[Assembly Hall]

What about that is bad? There is only one goal for IU Football right now. 6 wins. Once we get a whiff of the glorious smell of mediocrity, we can discuss playing a tougher opponent.

$750,000 is what is bad about that considering IU cant beat Navy or Ball St.

[Hoosier Red]

I don't understand what's bad though AH. If it makes sense to buy out of a tougher opponent in order to theoretically get an easier one, why are you upset with the overall buyout being $750K? What's would a good price be?

[BillDoran]

Wondering what the opinion was on the final two commits of the 2014 class, Tim Priller and Jeremiah April?

According to 247's composite rankings, Priller was the 379th best recruit in the class with offers from Albany, Illinois-Chicago, and Incarnate Word; while April checked in at 390th and it's hard to tell who he was offered by, but looks to at least have had interest from Washington St. and some other big conference schools.

Any reason for optimism? Has the staff identified some true diamonds in the rough? Is Crean loading up for the upcoming season, knowing his seat is warming?

[Hoosier Red]

I think they're the best options available and are about as likely to help as Tijan jobe and Peter Jurkin.

[gilpdawg]

I think Indiana is gonna be going small a lot next year, which with the athleticism of some of the returning guys, may not be a bad thing. You can win these days without a true big man.

[WMR]

Wondering what the opinion was on the final two commits of the 2014 class, Tim Priller and Jeremiah April?

According to 247's composite rankings, Priller was the 379th best recruit in the class with offers from Albany, Illinois-Chicago, and Incarnate Word; while April checked in at 390th and it's hard to tell who he was offered by, but looks to at least have had interest from Washington St. and some other big conference schools.

Any reason for optimism? Has the staff identified some true diamonds in the rough? Is Crean loading up for the upcoming season, knowing his seat is warming?

Serious mistake by Crean, IMO.

IU needs a major influx of talent, immediately.

These guys are multi-year projects, to put it kindly.

Crean should've targeted some 5th year senior transfers who could've stepped in and provided big contributions immediately. Tennessee's entire recruiting class has been released from their LOIs as well...

If Crean isn't fired, I'll be fairly surprised if these two avoid being creaned in a year or two...

[bucksfan2]

Serious mistake by Crean, IMO.

IU needs a major influx of talent, immediately.

These guys are multi-year projects, to put it kindly.

Crean should've targeted some 5th year senior transfers who could've stepped in and provided big contributions immediately. Tennessee's entire recruiting class has been released from their LOIs as well...

If Crean isn't fired, I'll be fairly surprised if these two avoid being creaned in a year or two...

IIRC they went after Anthony Lee who choose OSU instead.

I don't follow recruiting all that in depth, but signing two lower ranked projects speaks of Crean looking forward with job security.

But then again his tenure at IU has been odd to say the least.

[WMR]

IIRC they went after Anthony Lee who choose OSU instead.

I don't follow recruiting all that in depth, but signing two lower ranked projects speaks of Crean looking forward with job security.

But then again his tenure at IU has been odd to say the least.

I know a couple IU boosters and according to them IU needs to show marked improvement this season or they're going to bite the bullet and pay the buyout.

[Hoosier Red]

Serious mistake by Crean, IMO.

IU needs a major influx of talent, immediately.

These guys are multi-year projects, to put it kindly.

Crean should've targeted some 5th year senior transfers who could've stepped in and provided big contributions immediately. Tennessee's entire recruiting class has been released from their LOIs as well...

If Crean isn't fired, I'll be fairly surprised if these two avoid being creaned in a year or two...

He did. He struck out on the 5th year seniors like I did with every date in high school.

[WMR]

He did. He struck out on the 5th year seniors like I did with every date in high school.

There are still a bunch available, though. Playing at Indiana with a ton of PT available should've been enough to lure a couple to Bloomington.

[Hoosier Red]

There are still a bunch available, though. Playing at Indiana with a ton of PT available should've been enough to lure a couple to Bloomington.

You would think. I'm not surprised about boosters biting the bullet. The buyout is significantly lower next year. As a friend pointed out, the worst thing about IU missing the NIT is that next year if they make the NIT, some sheeple will believe that represents "progress."

[BillDoran]

It's all been very strange. While Crean never recruited at the elite level, he always recruited well. His 2012 recruits (Yogi, HMP, Hollowell) was big time, this year's freshman class (Vonleh, Williams, Robinson, Fischer) was really good as well, and the 2014 class started off dynamite with Blackmon and Trey Lyles.

The program was by all accounts trending in the right direction (both on the court and on the recruiting trail), then all of the sudden the wheels start falling off. Both Blackmon and Lyles decommit, the team lays an egg in 2013-2014 season, and though they regain Blackmon and add a nice piece in Robert Johnson, recruiting falls off the table and Kenny Johnson bolts.

I've never seen a team with such momentum bottom out so quickly. I understand you can't expect a seamless transition in replacing four 1,000 scorers, but when you add in the transfers and Vonleh's recent (and reasonable) jump to the pros, there's not a hell of a lot to be optimistic about. The back court will be exciting, but the front court is entirely bereft. It's baffling that they've been unable to bring in any size whatsoever.

Trying to understand the sea change in the program's fortune is nearly as confusing as trying to understand Tom Crean's post-game reactions .

[BillDoran]

You would think. I'm not surprised about boosters biting the bullet. The buyout is significantly lower next year. As a friend pointed out, the worst thing about IU missing the NIT is that next year if they make the NIT, some sheeple will believe that represents "progress."

I'm all for a little bit of patience, but :thumbup: to that. If you know your back is against the wall and your reaction is Priller and April, I'm not sure a whole lot of patience is warranted.

[Hoosier Red]

It's all been very strange. While Crean never recruited at the elite level, he always recruited well. His 2012 recruits (Yogi, HMP, Hollowell) was big time, this year's freshman class (Vonleh, Williams, Robinson, Fischer) was really good as well, and the 2014 class started off dynamite with Blackmon and Trey Lyles.

The program was by all accounts trending in the right direction (both on the court and on the recruiting trail), then all of the sudden the wheels start falling off. Both Blackmon and Lyles decommit, the team lays an egg in 2013-2014 season, and though they regain Blackmon and add a nice piece in Robert Johnson, recruiting falls off the table and Kenny Johnson bolts.

I've never seen a team with such momentum bottom out so quickly. I understand you can't expect a seamless transition in replacing four 1,000 scorers, but when you add in the transfers and Vonleh's recent (and reasonable) jump to the pros, there's not a hell of a lot to be optimistic about. The back court will be exciting, but the front court is entirely bereft. It's baffling that they've been unable to bring in any size whatsoever.

Trying to understand the sea change in the program's fortune is nearly as confusing as trying to understand Tom Crean's post-game reactions .

One thing I'd like to look at is whether Crean's teams have historically done better(relative to talent) without a dominant post player. As good as Cody was for 2 years and Vonleh for one year last year, there's no doubt the offenses appeared -to the naked eye at least- to suffer from completely ignoring the best player on the court or trying in vain to stuff the ball into said player.

[Hillsdale87]

I've never seen a team with such momentum bottom out so quickly. I understand you can't expect a seamless transition in replacing four 1,000 scorers, but when you add in the transfers and Vonleh's recent (and reasonable) jump to the pros, there's not a hell of a lot to be optimistic about. The back court will be exciting, but the front court is entirely bereft. It's baffling that they've been unable to bring in any size whatsoever.


Kentucky last year would be a team that lost momentum just as quickly. They went from winning the national championship to losing to Robert Morris in the first round of the NIT. IU was basically a completely new team this year and had similar results. This year should not have gone the way it did, but it's not unprecedented.

I think Crean's statement following the arrests of Stan and Yogi give some insight into the team this year. There are tons of rumors around the program about horrible chemistry, players not leading and taking responsibility, etc. And Crean's statement showed that he is tired of it and angry about it. I imagine that the team is going to be policed much more tightly this year. Most of the losses are going to be addition by subtraction. Hollowell by all accounts was a terrible member of the team. Vonleh is getting a lot of criticism, especially because he sat out games that he could have played at the end of the year to protect his draft stock. He has also had negative things to say about the program both publicly and to recruits. Hopefully this year's team is much more tightly-knit.

And I think everyone is overreacting to the signings of April and Priller. They are likely going to be 9th/10th guys for this year with some long-term potential. They're likely not going to be able to contribute much this year, which may actually be good for the team. Crean loves to go with a deep rotation, and he may not be able to do that this year. If April plays, he will only be counted on for blocking shots and rebounding. He moves pretty well for a 7 footer, so he can probably do that as a freshman. A big reason for April's low ranking is that he played at a tiny school and has developed late. He's put on about 35 pounds this year. He also put up 26 and 28 points in 2 games against JUCO schools this year, so he's got some potential. Priller hit 51% on 3s this year, which means he could develop into a good stretch 4 after spending some time in the weight room. But these guys aren't going to need to be big contributors this year.

IU's starting 5 next year will likely be: Yogi, Blackmon, Robinson, Williams, Perea - with Robert Johnson, Devin Davis, and Max Hoetzel coming off the bench. Assuming Robinson and Williams fulfill the potential that they showed last year, that's a talented starting 5 (Johnson and Blackmon were just ranked the best incoming shooters in the NCAA). The lack of production from the 5 should not be a huge concern. Michigan won the Big 10 with a very similar roster and UConn won the national championship with star guards, athletic wings, and big men who could just block shots and rebound. There is still 1 scholarship open, and if that gets filled by Justin Martin the lineup will be even better. This team should be fun to watch this year. They should move from one of the worst shooting teams in the Big 10 to maybe the best.

How Crean fills the last scholarship should be interesting. It will hopefully be either Eron Harris, Ryan Anderson, or Justin Martin. Martin would be great for this year's team. There's a small chance that Harris could be eligible to play this year, which would make him a top priority. And Anderson would be a huge boost to the 2015 team. If Crean lands any of these 3, that significantly improves the recruiting class. I wish Crean would have waited on Priller so that we could have had a shot at two of those guys, but he may already know that he only has a shot at one.

[BillDoran]

Kentucky last year would be a team that lost momentum just as quickly. They went from winning the national championship to losing to Robert Morris in the first round of the NIT. IU was basically a completely new team this year and had similar results. This year should not have gone the way it did, but it's not unprecedented.

I think Crean's statement following the arrests of Stan and Yogi give some insight into the team this year. There are tons of rumors around the program about horrible chemistry, players not leading and taking responsibility, etc. And Crean's statement showed that he is tired of it and angry about it. I imagine that the team is going to be policed much more tightly this year. Most of the losses are going to be addition by subtraction. Hollowell by all accounts was a terrible member of the team. Vonleh is getting a lot of criticism, especially because he sat out games that he could have played at the end of the year to protect his draft stock. He has also had negative things to say about the program both publicly and to recruits. Hopefully this year's team is much more tightly-knit.

And I think everyone is overreacting to the signings of April and Priller. They are likely going to be 9th/10th guys for this year with some long-term potential. They're likely not going to be able to contribute much this year, which may actually be good for the team. Crean loves to go with a deep rotation, and he may not be able to do that this year. If April plays, he will only be counted on for blocking shots and rebounding. He moves pretty well for a 7 footer, so he can probably do that as a freshman. A big reason for April's low ranking is that he played at a tiny school and has developed late. He's put on about 35 pounds this year. He also put up 26 and 28 points in 2 games against JUCO schools this year, so he's got some potential. Priller hit 51% on 3s this year, which means he could develop into a good stretch 4 after spending some time in the weight room. But these guys aren't going to need to be big contributors this year.

IU's starting 5 next year will likely be: Yogi, Blackmon, Robinson, Williams, Perea - with Robert Johnson, Devin Davis, and Max Hoetzel coming off the bench. Assuming Robinson and Williams fulfill the potential that they showed last year, that's a talented starting 5 (Johnson and Blackmon were just ranked the best incoming shooters in the NCAA). The lack of production from the 5 should not be a huge concern. Michigan won the Big 10 with a very similar roster and UConn won the national championship with star guards, athletic wings, and big men who could just block shots and rebound. There is still 1 scholarship open, and if that gets filled by Justin Martin the lineup will be even better. This team should be fun to watch this year. They should move from one of the worst shooting teams in the Big 10 to maybe the best.

How Crean fills the last scholarship should be interesting. It will hopefully be either Eron Harris, Ryan Anderson, or Justin Martin. Martin would be great for this year's team. There's a small chance that Harris could be eligible to play this year, which would make him a top priority. And Anderson would be a huge boost to the 2015 team. If Crean lands any of these 3, that significantly improves the recruiting class. I wish Crean would have waited on Priller so that we could have had a shot at two of those guys, but he may already know that he only has a shot at one.

Good points all. I particularly like the Kentucky comparison. Though I would point out, as you well know, that Calipari's model isn't built for continuity. It's reset and roll the dice every year. Crean, on the other hand, seems interested in building something more stable. I realize every program is going to have its ups and downs, but it's especially discouraging see how far this team fell and what little seems to lie ahead.

I suppose my concern with April, Priller, and, to some extent, Hoetzel is that a project or two on the roster isn't a big deal, but when it comprises 60 percent of a recruiting class, it becomes a problem. They better develop, because when a healthy portion of your roster is stocked with projects (count Hartman and Jurkin as well), you're eventually going to have to depend on them for minutes.

I think you're underestimating how desolate our front court is. Williams is the only big, and he's more 3 than 4, that Crean showed any faith in whatsoever. Parera and Davis averaged 15 minutes combined. And it's not like they were sitting behind Zeller and Watford. While I agree, the college game has evolved beyond traditional PFs and Cs, Michigan and UConn both had significantly more talent and length than what next year's squad will field.

Any of the three transfers would be great, but I'm holding out hope for Anderson. He seems to provide the most needed skill set of the trio.

[WMR]

Kentucky would've still made the NCAA Tournament comfortably in 2013 if Nerlens Noel hadn't suffered a season ending injury.

Those must be some loaded dice if you can hit Final Fours in 3 of 5 seasons. :D

[Hillsdale87]

Good points all. I particularly like the Kentucky comparison. Though I would point out, as you well know, that Calipari's model isn't built for continuity. It's reset and roll the dice every year. Crean, on the other hand, seems interested in building something more stable. I realize every program is going to have its ups and downs, but it's especially discouraging see how far this team fell and what little seems to lie ahead.


Crean has struggled with continuity, and some of that is his fault, but some of it is bad luck too. For instance, I don't think anybody saw Oladipo being a lottery pick at the start of his Junior Year. Obviously it was great for the team that he developed into a star, but Crean expected him to be around for this year's team. There was always the chance that Vonleh would be 1 and done, but I'm not sure it was expected. And even if Vonleh was one and done, Crean had backfilled him well with Luke Fischer. But Fischer transferring really threw things off. If he had stayed, IU would be replacing Vonleh with a Sophomore top-50 recruit, and there would not be real worries.

I know the front court is desolate, but I really think that Crean can work around this. My concern with Crean is as an in-game coach, but he prepares his teams well for games (IU was leading at the half of most games that they lost this year - good preparation - but then lost - inexperience and inability to adjust to opponents' adjustments), so I think he will come up with a good solution for this. Perea is an incredible athlete. I am pretty confident that he can block shots, play defense, and rebound. Any scoring is just a bonus. That was basically what Michigan got out of Jordan Morgan this year. Also, Perea has a lot of talent - he was a top 50 recruit - but he needs to work to develop it. Hopefully he's living in the gym this offseason.

[Assembly Hall]

I don't understand what's bad though AH. If it makes sense to buy out of a tougher opponent in order to theoretically get an easier one, why are you upset with the overall buyout being $750K? What's would a good price be?

I understand what they are trying to do. My question would be who scheduled South Florida to begin with? IU did something similar a few years back and promptly got beat by Southern Illinois at home.

[Assembly Hall]

As far as Crean and IU basketball, I was one that thought he was a great hire. Anymore I feel he is a bust and was just fortunate to get a class of kids that brought some pride back. Those kids are gone and with them some pride. It appears that CTC cant carry momentum no more than he can adjust to 'Cuses zone. He does seem to have a propensity to run kids off, but so did the General. As far as the "low ranked" recruits, Bob had his as well...Jamaal Meeks and AJ Guyton come to mind. But I don't want to compare the two, to me it is about success. IMHO, Crean has had ample time to make a go of it. Excuses of guys going pro don't work for me, good coaches adapt(check our neighbors to the south). IU is a storied program, it is time to start competing as such. If things don't change soon, our beloved school is gonna fall to the ranks of mediocrity if it aint already there.

[Razor Shines]

Kentucky would've still made the NCAA Tournament comfortably in 2013 if Nerlens Noel hadn't suffered a season ending injury.

Those must be some loaded dice if you can hit Final Fours in 3 of 5 seasons. :D

Get the hell out. We're trying to let ourselves be talked into some optimism in here. Don't come in here and poop on that, thats not gentlemanly.

[Hillsdale87]

Excuses of guys going pro don't work for me, good coaches adapt(check our neighbors to the south). IU is a storied program, it is time to start competing as such. If things don't change soon, our beloved school is gonna fall to the ranks of mediocrity if it aint already there.

IU is not a mediocre program. Yes this was a bad year, but that was following two great years. Let's see what happens this year before deciding that Crean can't maintain any momentum. It may just be the homer in me, but I'm pretty optimistic IU's chances this year. Crean has taken care of IU's biggest deficiency last year, which was outside shooting. I think IU could surprise

[SunDeck]

I firmly believe WMR would talk smack IU/UK at my mother's funeral. ;)

[bucksfan2]

IU is not a mediocre program. Yes this was a bad year, but that was following two great years. Let's see what happens this year before deciding that Crean can't maintain any momentum. It may just be the homer in me, but I'm pretty optimistic IU's chances this year. Crean has taken care of IU's biggest deficiency last year, which was outside shooting. I think IU could surprise

IU hasn't been a great program for a number of years now. They had two Sweet 16 runs in a row, one a little bit surprising, and one a little bit of a letdown. In the hierarchy of the Big 10 they find themselves behind OSU, MSU, UM, and Wisconsin. Crean hasn't been able to really use the IU moniker to win recruiting battles. I wonder if his antics are used against him in recruiting wars.

[WMR]

I firmly believe WMR would talk smack IU/UK at my mother's funeral. ;)

I honestly am not trying to talk smack! I know you guys are hurting right now, I have zero interest in pouring any salt in the wound... I was just responding to the "Cal rolls the dice every year" statement... I don't think it's really fair to characterize him in that fashion considering the results he has produced. I do understand that there's always a hint of the unknown when you're dealing with freshmen in key roles every season, but it is clearly working.

The discussion in this thread reminds me of how UK fans talked during the BCG era... trying to convince ourselves that things weren't as bad as they were and that, actually, things were good. To be clear, Crean is obviously a better coach than BCG... the overall point is the same, however.

[Hoosier Red]

I understand what they are trying to do. My question would be who scheduled South Florida to begin with? IU did something similar a few years back and promptly got beat by Southern Illinois at home.

I think there was confidence that they'd be able to beat a team like South Florida in 2015 and that was a reasonable expectation of where the program would be when the contract was signed, likely 2-3 years ago when Kevin Wilson was hired. Having lost to teams like Navy and Minnesota last year showed the team is not where it was expected to be. Given that updated information, it makes sense to hedge bets on the ability to beat a team like South Florida and instead play an easier opponent.

Another thing to consider, even if they are no more or less confident in being able to beat South Florida, there's probably going to be less value in beating them next year than what was considered when the contract was signed. Let's just say they were (and still are) 80% sure they can beat South Florida. When the contract was signed, they were 80% sure they could beat a Big East opponent. Now they're 80% sure they can beat an AAC opponent, who won't have a lot of big name opponents to prop up their perceived value.

This strikes to a lot of the inherent silliness that is college football, but rather than standing outside and complaining about the silliness, I'd prefer the AD proactively work to best use the silliness to IU's advantage.

In my mind, that's what he's done here.

[BillDoran]

Kentucky would've still made the NCAA Tournament comfortably in 2013 if Nerlens Noel hadn't suffered a season ending injury.

Those must be some loaded dice if you can hit Final Fours in 3 of 5 seasons. :D

I didn't mention success, only constant turnover. And with unknowns, comes uncertainty.

I think discussing just how loaded those dice are (and how they got so) is best left for another discussion. :D

[WMR]

I didn't mention success, only constant turnover. And with unknowns, comes uncertainty.

I think discussing just how loaded those dice are (and how they got so) is best left for another discussion. :D

:lol:

[Assembly Hall]

I think there was confidence that they'd be able to beat a team like South Florida in 2015 and that was a reasonable expectation of where the program would be when the contract was signed, likely 2-3 years ago when Kevin Wilson was hired. Having lost to teams like Navy and Minnesota last year showed the team is not where it was expected to be. Given that updated information, it makes sense to hedge bets on the ability to beat a team like South Florida and instead play an easier opponent.

Another thing to consider, even if they are no more or less confident in being able to beat South Florida, there's probably going to be less value in beating them next year than what was considered when the contract was signed. Let's just say they were (and still are) 80% sure they can beat South Florida. When the contract was signed, they were 80% sure they could beat a Big East opponent. Now they're 80% sure they can beat an AAC opponent, who won't have a lot of big name opponents to prop up their perceived value.

This strikes to a lot of the inherent silliness that is college football, but rather than standing outside and complaining about the silliness, I'd prefer the AD proactively work to best use the silliness to IU's advantage.

In my mind, that's what he's done here.


I am aware of what is going on.....and I think the AD is doing a sucky job. But that is just my opinion.

[Assembly Hall]

I didn't mention success, only constant turnover. And with unknowns, comes uncertainty.

I think discussing just how loaded those dice are (and how they got so) is best left for another discussion. :D


I am the biggest UK hater out there. But they always have had my respect. Us "border brothers" have got to stick together to defeat the "Evil Empire"! If I gotta see blue hoisting a trophy, I would rather it be UK than Duke.....or UConn, Carolina, Kansas, UCLA. I will take UK blue any day of the week over those other schools.

[Hoosier Red]

I am aware of what is going on.....and I think the AD is doing a sucky job. But that is just my opinion.

Right, it's fine to have that opinion. I just wish you could explain why he's doing a sucky job. The reason I challenged your example, buying out South Florida, is that I don't understand specifically what is bad about that strategy.

Is it bad to buy out a better team to play a worse team?
Is it okay to buy them out, but $750K is just too much?

[Assembly Hall]

Once again who scheduled South Florida? Could it be the guy that is paying them 3/4 of a mil to get out of it? Speculation on the program's growth?

[Hoosier Red]

Okay, so scheduling So Florida initially was a bad idea and that makes him a bad AD?

Regardless of whether or not the initial projection was good, I'd say buying the game out was a smart move. Bad AD's stick to their guns. Good AD's adjust as new information comes in.

[Assembly Hall]

And now the taxpayers foot some bill for the good AD's adjustment?

[Hoosier Red]

And now the taxpayers foot some bill for the good AD's adjustment?
Why are the taxpayers footing the bill?
You've lost me.

[Assembly Hall]

Why are the taxpayers footing the bill?
You've lost me.

In my mind(right or wrong) since IU is a state supported school I feel that all the financial decisions made affect the taxpayers of the state. I know I am grasping at straws, but I am just frustrated at how the two big sports are going right now.

[SunDeck]

I believe the sports are self supporting. Maybe I've been fooled by Fred Glass on that, but I thought I'd read somewhere about the program needing the big ten network deal so that they would have the revenue to stay in the black.

[Hoosier Red]

In my mind(right or wrong) since IU is a state supported school I feel that all the financial decisions made affect the taxpayers of the state. I know I am grasping at straws, but I am just frustrated at how the two big sports are going right now.


I believe the sports are self supporting. Maybe I've been fooled by Fred Glass on that, but I thought I'd read somewhere about the program needing the big ten network deal so that they would have the revenue to stay in the black.

I think SunDeck's basically right on this. But, as an accountant, I recognize that it's funny money to support either conclusion, and you could rearrange the numbers to back up whatever you want.
In general I get the frustration. The football team's making progress, but not as much progress as we'd like. And I'm afraid they wasted an excellent opportunity last season when they had 8 home games. Still, the team is trending in the right direction, if not the right velocity.

The basketball team is obviously in a very dangerous place right now.
But I think Glass has shown in "lesser" sports that he is not willing to put up with continued underperformance relative to expectations.

-His first major decision was to not renew Mike Freitag's contract as Men's Soccer coach after consecutive 4th place B1G finishes.
-He was at the helm when they completed the Baseball and Softball stadium completions which helped turn the baseball program from a joke(even by B1G standards) to a legitimate national power. Of course much of the credit for this goes to the coach Tracy Smith, but Glass should get credit for making sure he's kept Smith happy while Smith had a number of other offers recently.
-He fired Felisha Legatte-Jack as women's basketball coach after the women's team had two consecutive seasons well below expectations.

In the end, no matter how frustrating, athletic administrations are generally well served to practice the anti-Branch Rickey when it comes to coaches. It's almost always better to fire a coach "one year too late" rather than "one year too early."

[SunDeck]

Whether you like Glass or not, and whether it was his doing or not, Kaufman field is a freaking home run for the community. I see more facebook pictures from friends who take their kids to the place than any other local spot. And the Simon money, whether that was secured by the foundation or athletics, it's not only going to revamp Assembly Hall, but also will allow them to get wrestling and volleyball out of that prop from the Logan's Run set at 10th and the Bypass.

Personally, I'd be surprised if football gets anywhere in a time frame we would like it to, if ever. Between IU, UM, MSU, OSU, UC, Notre Dame, it seems like such an uphill battle to recruit well in the region. Here's an example, my dad is still pretty connected to Elder and he says the best players there just don't even have IU on their list. But they sure do have the others I mentioned. Their priorities are probably something like OSU, ND, UC. Maybe the public school kids don't eye ND as much, but still IU is barely on their minds and so IU has to work extra hard to get them to consider the place. It's almost like they can't become a good B1G school if they aren't already a good B1G school.

[Assembly Hall]

Understood HR..........it does not comfort me.

[Assembly Hall]

Personally, I'd be surprised if football gets anywhere in a time frame we would like it to, if ever. Between IU, UM, MSU, OSU, UC, Notre Dame, it seems like such an uphill battle to recruit well in the region. Here's an example, my dad is still pretty connected to Elder and he says the best players there just don't even have IU on their list. But they sure do have the others I mentioned. Their priorities are probably something like OSU, ND, UC. Maybe the public school kids don't eye ND as much, but still IU is barely on their minds and so IU has to work extra hard to get them to consider the place. It's almost like they can't become a good B1G school if they aren't already a good B1G school.


Bill Mallory did it for IU football.........geez I miss those days.

[SunDeck]

I wasn't really into IU before going there and I look at Mallory's record which seems OK, but certainly not great. It looks like he was getting the program back on track, but faltered. What happened there?

[Assembly Hall]

I wasn't really into IU before going there and I look at Mallory's record which seems OK, but certainly not great. It looks like he was getting the program back on track, but faltered. What happened there?

Just my opinion but the locals got too used to going to bowl games. Expectations were way too high. Bill beat Michigan and Ohio State in the same year, something that I probably will never see again in my lifetime. From the mid 80's 'til the early 90's the Hoosiers were a perennial Top 25 team. It can be done, he proved it.

[redsfanmia]

Coach Mallory was great for IU football but by the time he was let go the program had started to falter, I think the thought at the time was Cam Cameron could take them up a level. I think had Coach Hep not passed the program would be in decent shape.

[dabvu2498]

Just my opinion but the locals got too used to going to bowl games. Expectations were way too high. Bill beat Michigan and Ohio State in the same year, something that I probably will never see again in my lifetime. From the mid 80's 'til the early 90's the Hoosiers were a perennial Top 25 team. It can be done, he proved it.

They finished ranked in the Top 20 (it was only 20 back then) twice. 87-88. They had 5 winning seasons in 13 for Mallory (6 bowl appearances). 39-65-1 Big Ten record in his career.

[Assembly Hall]

They finished ranked in the Top 20 (it was only 20 back then) twice. 87-88. They had 5 winning seasons in 13 for Mallory (6 bowl appearances). 39-65-1 Big Ten record in his career.

You say finished, I say their presence was there. In either case it is a helluva lot better than the program is now.....

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/indiana/polls.html

[Hoosier Red]

Mallory was definitely the most successful coach in program history, and I believe the program has it in them to rebound to at least that level of success.

That said, the decision to let him go in 1996 probably was the correct one. After the 1993 Independence Bowl, the program had been going in the wrong direction. And even though Cam Cameron's 5 years came and went without a bowl game, even that had it's share of highlights.

The real craters which in my mind are still setting IU football back were the hiring of Gerry Dinardo in 2002 and the retention of Bill Lynch following Terry Hoeppner's death in 2007.
BTN will often show IU's win over Wisconsin in Dinardo's first year. What's notable to me is that IU team had 6 NFL players(mostly backups, but still at least some NFL level talent was around) who of course were all recruited by Cameron. By the time Dinardo's reign of terror ended, the team was almost completely without NFL talent.

Hoeppner was climbing out of that hole, and his untimely death left Bill Lynch with a solid core to continue building. Unfortunately, Lynch was unable to recruit nearly as high level and the talent level plummeted again.

Wilson's slightly behind the schedule we had hoped for, but he's definitely improved the talent level program wide. But even with the improvements, I've got to think his seat is getting warm. My feeling is that the program's progress will be determined not by whether Wilson is fired, but by who replaces him if he is fired.

[redsfanmia]

Bo McMillian is the most successful coach in program history. I think had Cam Camoron not had Antwan Randle-el he may have won 2-3 games he was terrible. Dan Dakich claims Urban Meyer was interested in the job when Cam was fired and claims he made a phone call to the AD at the time and was poo poo'd, I wonder where the program would be if they had hired him?

[Hoosier Red]

Bo McMillian is the most successful coach in program history. I think had Cam Camoron not had Antwan Randle-el he may have won 2-3 games he was terrible. Dan Dakich claims Urban Meyer was interested in the job when Cam was fired and claims he made a phone call to the AD at the time and was poo poo'd, I wonder where the program would be if they had hired him?

You're correct on McMillan. Should have clarified Mallory's success as "almost" recent history.

The things Dan Dakich claims and the things that are true are almost mutually exclusive.
While I'd never defend Cameron's coaching abilities, my point was that he left a pretty talented team that could have been the foundation for a moderately successful team in the years following his exit. Instead Dinardo happened.

[redsfanmia]

You're correct on McMillan. Should have clarified Mallory's success as "almost" recent history.

The things Dan Dakich claims and the things that are true are almost mutually exclusive.
While I'd never defend Cameron's coaching abilities, my point was that he left a pretty talented team that could have been the foundation for a moderately successful team in the years following his exit. Instead Dinardo happened.

Dan Dakich loves himself but he seems like an honest guy IMO. I agree Jerry D was an absolute joke and his time set the program back to ground zero.

[Hoosier Red]

Perhaps. He loves stories like that one, which he's repeated ad nauseum, that can't be verified and make him out to be the hero, "if only they would have listened."

[Boston Red]

Urban Meyer would have been at Bowling Green with Dakich at the time, right? Makes some sense. Even the IU football job is better than Bowling Green.

[Assembly Hall]

You're correct on McMillan. Should have clarified Mallory's success as "almost" recent history.

The things Dan Dakich claims and the things that are true are almost mutually exclusive.
While I'd never defend Cameron's coaching abilities, my point was that he left a pretty talented team that could have been the foundation for a moderately successful team in the years following his exit. Instead Dinardo happened.

Somebody must think Cam knows his stuff...he has been working in the NFL for quite some time. But anyway his biggest mistake at IU was experimenting moving Randle-El to WR.

[redsfanmia]

Somebody must think Cam knows his stuff...he has been working in the NFL for quite some time. But anyway his biggest mistake at IU was experimenting moving Randle-El to WR.

Cam had his shot at being a head coach and went 1-15 and after the Ravens fired him as Offensive coordinator they went on a run to the Super Bowl. I'm sure Cam is a competent position coach but he is not a head coach by any means. According to reports Cam's biggest mistake was being an arrogant jerk who treated people poorly.

[Hoosier Red]

Somebody must think Cam knows his stuff...he has been working in the NFL for quite some time. But anyway his biggest mistake at IU was experimenting moving Randle-El to WR.

Actually he's burned his NFL bridges now. He's now the OC at LSU. (Which isn't a bad spot either.)

[Assembly Hall]

Cam had his shot at being a head coach and went 1-15 and after the Ravens fired him as Offensive coordinator they went on a run to the Super Bowl. I'm sure Cam is a competent position coach but he is not a head coach by any means. According to reports Cam's biggest mistake was being an arrogant jerk who treated people poorly.

LOL......I wonder if he picked that up from his college basketball coach? Hmmmmmmmmm.

[Assembly Hall]

Actually he's burned his NFL bridges now. He's now the OC at LSU. (Which isn't a bad spot either.)


IMHO......that is a NFL job!!!!!!!

[Hoosier Red]

LOL......I wonder if he picked that up from his college basketball coach? Hmmmmmmmmm.

Bob Knight's quote when Cameron was hired, "Well he played under me and coached under Bo (Shembechler), so if he can't succeed, they might as well shoot him."

[Assembly Hall]

Bob Knight's quote when Cameron was hired, "Well he played under me and coached under Bo (Shembechler), so if he can't succeed, they might as well shoot him."


Well maybe he didn't listen to those two HOF coaches......Lee Corso was always talking!!!!!!!!!!

[Assembly Hall]

I am just shaking my head. I have been working in Bloomington for 3 weeks at an off campus apartment complex that caters to students. I have asked them all the same question....."What do you think of Coach Crean?"......75% of the responses are..."He is better than Bobby Knight.". I reply "Bobby won 3 National Championships for the Hoosiers.". 50% of the responses back were..."I wasn't alive when he done that.". All I can say is that my son doesn't share the same view!

[Razor Shines]

I am just shaking my head. I have been working in Bloomington for 3 weeks at an off campus apartment complex that caters to students. I have asked them all the same question....."What do you think of Coach Crean?"......75% of the responses are..."He is better than Bobby Knight.". I reply "Bobby won 3 National Championships for the Hoosiers.". 50% of the responses back were..."I wasn't alive when he done that.". All I can say is that my son doesn't share the same view!

Strangest thing to me is that 75% of them would even reference Knight when asked the question "What do you think of Crean?" Don't see the point of comparing the two.

[Assembly Hall]

Strangest thing to me is that 75% of them would even reference Knight when asked the question "What do you think of Crean?" Don't see the point of comparing the two.

That might be due to the age of the guy asking the question. My grey hair gives me away......I presume they assume I am a Knight guy........and they are right!

[redsfanmia]

They ranked the top 50 coaches on espn and Clappy didn't even make the cut, not the espn ranking mean anything It just caught me off guard.

[Hoosier Red]

They ranked the top 50 coaches on espn and Clappy didn't even make the cut, not the espn ranking mean anything It just caught me off guard.

It's interesting to me how far his star has fallen.

[Hillsdale87]

It's interesting to me how far his star has fallen.

Not that Crean is an elite coach, but that list is awful. I would much prefer him to many guys on that list. I know it says that the list is based on "right now", so that must mean only last season because his teams the two years prior were good/great.

Huggins at 30?! He was good when his teams had way more talent than the rest of the C-USA. At West Virginia, he walked into a great situation and has been .500 over the last 3 seasons (after Beilein's guys graduated).

Josh Pastner. Nobody does less with more.

Tubby Smith?! Has proven time and again to be a mediocre at best coach

Buzz Williams (38) Just as disappointing as Crean last year

[Assembly Hall]

Well after another week in B-town I have come to the conclusion that kids today are different than those of yester year. None of them that I deal with are "students" of the game. Most of them don't know who Dan Dakich is. Never heard of Steve Alford. And didn't know Larry Bird was recruited by Knight. Jeezel Peete's. Bob Leonard was before my time, but I know who he is....Boom Baby!

[SunDeck]

Well after another week in B-town I have come to the conclusion that kids today are different than those of yester year. None of them that I deal with are "students" of the game. Most of them don't know who Dan Dakich is. Never heard of Steve Alford. And didn't know Larry Bird was recruited by Knight. Jeezel Peete's. Bob Leonard was before my time, but I know who he is....Boom Baby!

Look at the license plates of their cars; I think I recently read that IU is 40% out of state now, and a real draw for students from both coasts.
At least I'm seeing fewer Cubs banners.

[Hoosier Red]

AH,
Kids in general don't know history. You may know Slick Leonard's story, but most likely didn't know it when you were going to school.

Besides, not knowing who Dan Dakich is, probably helps their knowledge of the game.
Never has so much been said about someone who did so little.

[redsfanmia]

AH,
Kids in general don't know history. You may know Slick Leonard's story, but most likely didn't know it when you were going to school.

Besides, not knowing who Dan Dakich is, probably helps their knowledge of the game.
Never has so much been said about someone who did so little.
Danny did shut down Jordan and was a part of the program for around 20 years.

[Hoosier Red]

Danny shut down Jordan in his own mind. It's a shame that myth has spread to the point it has.
Jordan shut down Jordan by picking up 2 fouls in the first half. He played only 26 minutes in the game and scored 13.

That team then lost to an underwhelming UVa squad who came in as a #7 seed.

[Assembly Hall]

I am gonna do that SD.

[Assembly Hall]

Danny shut down Jordan in his own mind. It's a shame that myth has spread to the point it has.
Jordan shut down Jordan by picking up 2 fouls in the first half. He played only 26 minutes in the game and scored 13.

That team then lost to an underwhelming UVa squad who came in as a #7 seed.

I beg to differ......Dean Smith shut down Jordan!!!!!!!

[BillDoran]

Crean brings in another marginal talent in Nick Zeisloft, a kid who averaged less than 6 points a game at a middle-of-the-road MVC team.

Not looking to be alarmist here (I recognize one big recruit can catalyze a class), but the 2015 class is looking rather inauspicious at the moment. In on a handful of solid guards, but not much in the way of size. The departure of Kenny Johnson to greener pastures doesn't inspire much hope either. I'd expect some of Johnson's DMV connections to dry up, paired with an inability to keep in-state talent home and things are looking rather grim.

Crean's wagering a lot on this year's team's ability to out-shoot the competition. He may well have the guns to do it, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to remain optimistic when considering the future of the program. I don't know that I've ever witnessed a program lose its shine so quickly. From one of the most talented teams in the country (with consecutive years of lottery talent) to a team that's largely picking for scraps (April, Pritchard and Zeisloft). I know one of Crean's strengths is player development, but it's awful difficult to teach size.

Anybody see it differently? Walk me off the ledge. Provide me with some hope.

[WMR]

Crean brings in another marginal talent in Nick Zeisloft, a kid who averaged less than 6 points a game at a middle-of-the-road MVC team.

Not looking to be alarmist here (I recognize one big recruit can catalyze a class), but the 2015 class is looking rather inauspicious at the moment. In on a handful of solid guards, but not much in the way of size. The departure of Kenny Johnson to greener pastures doesn't inspire much hope either. I'd expect some of Johnson's DMV connections to dry up, paired with an inability to keep in-state talent home and things are looking rather grim.

Crean's wagering a lot on this year's team's ability to out-shoot the competition. He may well have the guns to do it, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to remain optimistic when considering the future of the program. I don't know that I've ever witnessed a program lose its shine so quickly. From one of the most talented teams in the country (with consecutive years of lottery talent) to a team that's largely picking for scraps (April, Pritchard and Zeisloft). I know one of Crean's strengths is player development, but it's awful difficult to teach size.

Anybody see it differently? Walk me off the ledge. Provide me with some hope.

They're gonna need Yogi and JBJ to hit 3s at around 40%, and a BUNCH of them, to have a chance, IMO.

They're going to be outmatched down low against virtually every team in the Big 10.

I would like to know how safe Crean's job is at the moment. I don't see IU as an NCAA Tournament team next season, I wonder if he can survive that yet again...

What's his buyout after next season?

[Hillsdale87]

Crean brings in another marginal talent in Nick Zeisloft, a kid who averaged less than 6 points a game at a middle-of-the-road MVC team.

Not looking to be alarmist here (I recognize one big recruit can catalyze a class), but the 2015 class is looking rather inauspicious at the moment. In on a handful of solid guards, but not much in the way of size. The departure of Kenny Johnson to greener pastures doesn't inspire much hope either. I'd expect some of Johnson's DMV connections to dry up, paired with an inability to keep in-state talent home and things are looking rather grim.

Crean's wagering a lot on this year's team's ability to out-shoot the competition. He may well have the guns to do it, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to remain optimistic when considering the future of the program. I don't know that I've ever witnessed a program lose its shine so quickly. From one of the most talented teams in the country (with consecutive years of lottery talent) to a team that's largely picking for scraps (April, Pritchard and Zeisloft). I know one of Crean's strengths is player development, but it's awful difficult to teach size.

Anybody see it differently? Walk me off the ledge. Provide me with some hope.

Zeisloft means absolutely nothing. They've got an open scholarship for next year and he's guaranteed a scholarship for one season. He's an extra body for practice who comes with some experience. IU is not picking for scraps. Blackmon and Robert Johnson are two top prospects and were recently ranked as the two best shooters in the class of 2014. This wasn't a great class, but it is still top 20. Indiana will likely have the best backcourt in the Big 10 with Yogi and Blackmon this year. I'd be surprised if IU is not a lot better this year than they were last year. It's a big if, but if Troy Williams and Stanford Robinson have improved their jump shots, Indiana will have one of the most explosive offenses in the Big 10.

Indiana is in on some bigs in 2015 and can promise a lot of playing time immediately. Losing Johnson probably hurts, but let's wait and see what Chuck Martin can do. He has a lot of East Coast ties as well. Nobody knew much about Kenny Johnson when he was hired either.

[BillDoran]

Zeisloft means absolutely nothing. They've got an open scholarship for next year and he's guaranteed a scholarship for one season. He's an extra body for practice who comes with some experience. IU is not picking for scraps. Blackmon and Robert Johnson are two top prospects and were recently ranked as the two best shooters in the class of 2014. This wasn't a great class, but it is still top 20. Indiana will likely have the best backcourt in the Big 10 with Yogi and Blackmon this year. I'd be surprised if IU is not a lot better this year than they were last year. It's a big if, but if Troy Williams and Stanford Robinson have improved their jump shots, Indiana will have one of the most explosive offenses in the Big 10.

Indiana is in on some bigs in 2015 and can promise a lot of playing time immediately. Losing Johnson probably hurts, but let's wait and see what Chuck Martin can do. He has a lot of East Coast ties as well. Nobody knew much about Kenny Johnson when he was hired either.

Haven't read anywhere that Zeisloft was a single year guy. In fact, Inside the Hall says he's more or less taking over Etherington's scholarship. Either way, any program can swallow a scholarship on a shooter. The problem is when you begin collecting these types of players.

And I think Kenny Johnson was a pretty well known comodity when he came on board. Lots of experience coaching at the high school level and deep connections at a premier AAU team. Chuck Martin may well be great, but he didn't show a hell of a lot at Marist. Time will tell, but like the most recent player additions, the move lacks immediate appeal. While I'm not necessarily calling for more splash, I do think the lack of hype surrounding recent moves speaks to the current level of excitement around the program.

It's early in the recruiting season and there's plenty of time to bring in both talent and size, but it's hard to argue that program hasn't lost a good deal of luster.

[Hillsdale87]

Haven't read anywhere that Zeisloft was a single year guy. In fact, Inside the Hall says he's more or less taking over Etherington's scholarship. Either way, any program can swallow a scholarship on a shooter. The problem is when you begin collecting these types of players.

And I think Kenny Johnson was a pretty well known comodity when he came on board. Lots of experience coaching at the high school level and deep connections at a premier AAU team. Chuck Martin may well be great, but he didn't show a hell of a lot at Marist. Time will tell, but like the most recent player additions, the move lacks immediate appeal. While I'm not necessarily calling for more splash, I do think the lack of hype surrounding recent moves speaks to the current level of excitement around the program.

It's early in the recruiting season and there's plenty of time to bring in both talent and size, but it's hard to argue that program hasn't lost a good deal of luster.

From what I've read he's only guaranteed a scholarship for 2014. It was going to go unused otherwise, so there's no harm in giving the guy a free year at Kelley while being a good practice player. Kenny Johnson had 1 year of college experience before IU. Chuck Martin did not have success at Marist, but he's not being brought in as the head coach. He was an assistant for Coach Cal, so I assume he's got some recruiting ability. Plus he's worked in the NBA, so that can't hurt. And I'm not sure that any assistant coach hiring is really going to be a splash move.

And sure, the program had a down year, but I don't really think it's lost its luster except amongst IU fans who are justifiably upset about a bad year. IU has had 3 players drafted in the top 9 the last 2 years. I'm not sure that any other school besides Kansas has done that. All it takes is a good record this year and the past season will be forgotten.

[BillDoran]

From what I've read he's only guaranteed a scholarship for 2014. It was going to go unused otherwise, so there's no harm in giving the guy a free year at Kelley while being a good practice player. Kenny Johnson had 1 year of college experience before IU. Chuck Martin did not have success at Marist, but he's not being brought in as the head coach. He was an assistant for Coach Cal, so I assume he's got some recruiting ability. Plus he's worked in the NBA, so that can't hurt. And I'm not sure that any assistant coach hiring is really going to be a splash move.

And sure, the program had a down year, but I don't really think it's lost its luster except amongst IU fans who are justifiably upset about a bad year. IU has had 3 players drafted in the top 9 the last 2 years. I'm not sure that any other school besides Kansas has done that. All it takes is a good record this year and the past season will be forgotten.

I suppose that's my concern. The 2012-2013 team, while not quite living up to expectations, had a great season. Last year was a big disappointment. And now we don't have the talent of past years (though Blackmon may have one-and-done potential). The season will go a long way in determining what we have in Crean. If he can patch together some kind of effective front court, this could be a top-half of the B1G team. If things don't fall into place, it could get really ugly. Throw in that recruiting has been trending downward, and it's all a big troubling to me.

[Hoosier Red]

They're gonna need Yogi and JBJ to hit 3s at around 40%, and a BUNCH of them, to have a chance, IMO.

They're going to be outmatched down low against virtually every team in the Big 10.

I would like to know how safe Crean's job is at the moment. I don't see IU as an NCAA Tournament team next season, I wonder if he can survive that yet again...

What's his buyout after next season?

His job is probably safer than most fans would like. IIRC his buyout goes down pretty significantly but I haven't seen anything definitive.

My big fear is that this year's team makes the NIT and he calls it "progress."
Bleh

[Hillsdale87]

Throw in that recruiting has been trending downward, and it's all a big troubling to me.

I don't think that's fair. Fans are talking about recruiting trending downward because of the most recent recruits who were far from heralded. But the top two guys in this class are top high school players. The most recent recruits were needed because of the number of transfers that happened at the end of the season.I think those transfers were good for this year's team, but it just left the bench thin. Still though, fans are getting worried about the guys that are going to be at the back of the bench. Not a big deal. But this is the fourth straight class with star potential.

One other thing regarding recruiting big men, it's true that this year's class doesn't have one that looks like a contributor, at least right away. But that wasn't supposed to be necessary. I'm sure Crean was hoping Vonleh would be more than a 1 year player. He certainly knew that 1 and done was a possibility when he signed him, but there was definitely a decent chance that he would need more seasoning. But the backup plan was supposed to be Luke Fischer, a top 40 recruit, who transferred because he was homesick. If he had stayed, this year's team would have been one of the best on paper in the Big 10. Recruiting is not trending down, it's just that there were a few unexpected events this year that made it tough