Phil Castellini surprised that Opening Day tickets still unsold

[Bourgeois Zee]

Suarez had minus .7. The whole deal saw 2 WAR leave the Reds. Dunn and Fraley were each over 1 apiece.

You realize it doesn't work that way, right?

Winker was the best player they dealt. Unless it was Gray, who was dealt for a kid with all of five Rookie Ball games under his belt. Unless it was Miley, who was just dumped for nothing. Unless it was Barnhart, who was dumped for a kid hitting under the Mendoza line two years running.

All of them were better players than anyone the Reds acquired.

And you want us to believe the team got better this year?

[HammerTime]

16 years? The Reds were arguably the best team in baseball in 2012. Covid in 2020 really jacked up the first all in Reds team since then.

And have won ZERO playoff series.

[Sea Ray]

You realize it doesn't work that way, right?

How does it work?

[Old school 1983]

When taking inflation into consideration, the Reds payroll this year is roughly the same as it was in 2010. They had a revenue in 2010 of $179 million, which is worth about $233 million today. They should have somewhere in the neighborhood of $290-$300 million in revenue this year.

And it had been more than that for like the last 3 seasons. We all know they are cutting payroll. When they said realign resources we all knew it meant that. And they truly did realign resources into younger talent. Then reinvested some of the savings into shorter term contracts for vets. If you don’t like the plan that’s fine. Quit acting like they lied about it.

[Bourgeois Zee]

And it had been more than that for like the last 3 seasons. We all know they are cutting payroll. When they said realign resources we all knew it meant that. And they truly did realign resources into younger talent. Then reinvested some of the savings into shorter term contracts for vets. If you don’t like the plan that’s fine. Quit acting like they lied about it.

They did lie about it. They lied when they said they were spending equal to what they earned. They lied when they said they'd put the money back in the team. They lied when they said they were aligning resources.

So many lies.

You're okay with that.

We're not.

[Old school 1983]

You realize it doesn't work that way, right?

Yes. We can add up everything and plug it into a formula. I did a quick and dirty. You do realize Suárez was among the worst everyday starters in the league last year? You realize the Reds owed him money for this and the next two seasons. You realize they basically have a bunch of guys that can cover third in the bigs and more on the way. The extra money will be worth it in the coming years. Not saying it’s a lock, but it’s not surprise me at all if Pham and Soloano outperformed Suarez and Winker this year. Let alone factoring in anything Fraley, Dunn, Willamson, Phillips, or guys brought in later with Suarez’s money do. Winker is a tough guy to lose. But he’s a very one dimensional player and Suarez has just flat been terrible.

[Old school 1983]

They did lie about it. They lied when they said they were spending equal to what they earned. They lied when they said they'd put the money back in the team. They lied when they said they were aligning resources.

So many lies.

You're okay with that.

We're not.

I can see how the rest of that is usual GM speak type BS. They flat didn’t lie when they said they are realigning resources. They are. You just don’t like it.

[LeatherPants]

Did they not spend that in 2019, 2020 and 2021?

No.


Here's the percentage of payroll the Reds have spent since Bob took over. In 2019, 2020, and 2021 they just went back to (slightly less) than what they had spent the years leading up to the rebuild.

Revenue/Payroll/Percentage

2006 146/60.9 (41.7)
2007 161/68.9 (42.7%)
2008 171/74.1 (43.3%)
2009 166/73.5 (44.2%)
2010 179/76.1 (42.5%)
2011 185/80.8 (43.6%)
2012 202/87.8 (43.4%)
2013 209/106.8 (51.1%)
2014 227/114.2 (50.3%)
2015 237/115.4 (48.7%)
2016 229/89.9 (39.2%)
2017 243/95.4 (39.2%)
2018 257/101.3 (39.4%)
2019 276/126.6 (45.8%)
2020 114/55.4 (48.5%)
2021 266/122.2 (45.9%)





https://www.forbes.com/teams/cincinn...h=48e41b783003

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ds-since-2006/

https://legacy.baseballprospectus.co...ncinnati-reds/

[Bourgeois Zee]

I can see how the rest of that is usual GM speak type BS. They flat didn’t lie when they said they are realigning resources. They are. You just don’t like it.

Unless they mean they're realigning them into their pockets, they're lying.

You've been shown the numbers ad nauseum, and it's like you can't see them.

It's remarkable the lengths you'll go to in order not to accept that.

[Old school 1983]

No.


Here's the percentage of payroll the Reds have spent since Bob took over. In 2019, 2020, and 2021 they just went back to (slightly less) than what they had spent the years leading up to the rebuild.

Revenue/Payroll/Percentage

2006 146/60.9 (41.7)
2007 161/68.9 (42.7%)
2008 171/74.1 (43.3%)
2009 166/73.5 (44.2%)
2010 179/76.1 (42.5%)
2011 185/80.8 (43.6%)
2012 202/87.8 (43.4%)
2013 209/106.8 (51.1%)
2014 227/114.2 (50.3%)
2015 237/115.4 (48.7%)
2016 229/89.9 (39.2%)
2017 243/95.4 (39.2%)
2018 257/101.3 (39.4%)
2019 276/126.6 (45.8%)
2020 114/55.4 (48.5%)
2021 266/122.2 (45.9%)





https://www.forbes.com/teams/cincinn...h=48e41b783003

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ds-since-2006/

https://legacy.baseballprospectus.co...ncinnati-reds/

So the Reds spent the 2010 amount on the team in 2019, 2020 and 2021 when factoring for inflation?

[LeatherPants]

So the Reds spent the 2010 amount on the team in 2019, 2020 and 2021 when factoring for inflation?

But they had even higher revenues, when factoring in inflation.

Forget the "real" numbers, look at the percentages.

They aren't ever using payflex money.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Yes. We can add up everything and plug it into a formula...

No, we really can't.

You assume so much in your little hypothetical here.

We don't know that the Reds are going to spend that money on anything. They say they are. They have a history of pocketing that extra cash, as shown in LP's work over the entire course of this thread. You should probably read those. We don't know we have a bunch of guys who can cover 3B. We have Moustakas and Solano currently-- both of those are question marks. I would be absolutely gobsmacked if either Pham or Solano come within half of Winker's production. Fraley is a cypher. Dunn has a bum shoulder. Phillips is a scratch-off lottery ticket. You assume they'll somehow provide excess value...?

Finally, and I can't believe this has to be said: neither Solano nor Pham has anything to do with Winker. The Reds could have signed both and Michael Conforto and a whole outfield of producers. Instead, they cheaped out. Again. They took their cash and went home. You want to add free agents to trade acquisitions to prospects. Pretty easy to make the math work if you can add everyone possible.

But it doesn't make the deal or the Reds any more palatable.

[Roy Tucker]

I base my thoughts on what I see the Reds *do*. I ceased believing what they say. At least for the time being.

If I squint at what they’re doing and do best case/worst case, I can see where they think they might have a successful season. I’m not bought into it, but on a certain planet, I can see how they think they might compete.

So, I’ll wait and watch and hope for the best. I got bigger fish to fry for now so I’m not wasting emotion on it.

[Old school 1983]

Unless they mean they're realigning them into their pockets, they're lying.

You've been shown the numbers ad nauseum, and it's like you can't see them.

It's remarkable the lengths you'll go to in order not to accept that.

Realigning into removing older guys who won’t repeat their performance like Miley. Or finally trading a guy a year too early in Gray. Or removing a deadweight contract like Suarez. Losing Winker sucks. I was one of his chief defenders when everyone wanted to trade him for a bag of balls. I even said last season I could see him having a single season that tops a peak Joey Votto year.

And no crap they’re pocketing some of the money. I’ve said that and I said I flat don’t care. They are running a business and not a charity. As Caveat Emperor posted unless a team has publicly show their finances they are going to BS about it. You’re getting upset over the level of BS that practically any ownership group spins. I’m more interested in them lying about player moves. Yes. Money was a consideration. Duh. But the player moves they made this off-season can be connected to legit baseball reasons that don’t take too much squinting to see.

[BCubb2003]

Do any of the owners have management contracts with the Reds?