Logan Ondrusek Thread

[cumberlandreds]

Originally Posted by PuffyPig

Query why then has Marshall been so unhittable the last few years if hitters can simply fight off his curve balls until they get something they can drive?

At the end of the year when you compare Marshall to Ondrusek you'll see why Marshall is so much better.

Lot of difference between being a closer than a set-up man. Maybe he threw more fastballs in the set up role as opposed to the closer? I don't know. Anyway I hope Marshall saves 50 games this year and makes me look foolish. I don't really care who saves them,Marshall,Ondrusek or Corky Lopez. As long as someone does is all that matters.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by cumberlandreds

Maybe he threw more fastballs in the set up role as opposed to the closer?

Nope.

[PuffyPig]

Originally Posted by cumberlandreds

Lot of difference between being a closer than a set-up man.

There are likely few pitchers who can be very successful set-up men but poor closers. And it's not like Marshall has failed, he's 5/6 in save opportunities.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by PuffyPig

There are likely few pitchers who can be very successful set-up men but poor closers. And it's not like Marshall has failed, he's 5/6 in save opportunities.

I disagree. I woudn't consider Marshall's performance yesterday a success. That said I think there is a major difference between setup men and closers. I think with someone like Marshall he more often than not has been put in situations more advantageous to him. If he weren't the closer I doubt Dusty would have used him against Ryan Braun rather he would have brought a right hander off the bench to face him. In today's game closers get the ball in the 9th without regard to who is due up in that inning.

[Reds1]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

I disagree. I woudn't consider Marshall's performance yesterday a success. That said I think there is a major difference between setup men and closers. I think with someone like Marshall he more often than not has been put in situations more advantageous to him. If he weren't the closer I doubt Dusty would have used him against Ryan Braun rather he would have brought a right hander off the bench to face him. In today's game closers get the ball in the 9th without regard to who is due up in that inning.

I got a Hold in my fantasy league.

[Caveat Emperor]

Originally Posted by membengal

He's kind of got a point, though. We can't pretend those runs didn't happen, and I sometime feel like people run to xFIP etc. as the gospel of what should have happened rather than what happened.

There's eventually a rubber-road moment in all of this -- having amazing peripherals and great looking advanced metrics only means so much if a pitcher isn't getting the job done.

[Nasty_Boy]

I don't think there is a difference between set up men and closers... I think there is a difference between good pitchers and bad pitchers, or good match-ups and bad match-ups. The better the pitcher the better he'll be regardless of the situation.

I didn't want to go to Marshall in the 9th yesterday because of the three right handed hitters the Brewers had coming to the plate. After the way Ondrusek pitched to Braun and others on Monday night, I would have went to him if I were going to take Chapman out. I have a ton of confidence in Sean Marshall as a good pitcher, closer title or not, but I also think the "save" is such a joke. Its an arbitrary stat that affects how managers handle their bullpen. If there were no such thing as save or if the Brewers had Braun Ramirez and Hart due up in the 7th inning Ondrusek would have been in the game. I don't buy into the mental aspect... I buy into a guy have dominating stuff to get tough outs.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

There's eventually a rubber-road moment in all of this -- having amazing peripherals and great looking advanced metrics only means so much if a pitcher isn't getting the job done.

The difference in this situation is that we are talking about a guy who's ERA and crap like that have historically matched his peripherals.... this isn't a case where I think there is really much doubt that Marshall's "results" are going to conform.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

There's eventually a rubber-road moment in all of this -- having amazing peripherals and great looking advanced metrics only means so much if a pitcher isn't getting the job done.

Marshall has been one of the best relievers in baseball for several years. I submit that Marhall is not a suitable test case for the rubber road theorum....

If we're going to poke at misapplied statistical concepts, why not talk about sample size?

[RedlegJake]

Originally Posted by Nasty_Boy

I don't think there is a difference between set up men and closers... I think there is a difference between good pitchers and bad pitchers, or good match-ups and bad match-ups. The better the pitcher the better he'll be regardless of the situation.

I didn't want to go to Marshall in the 9th yesterday because of the three right handed hitters the Brewers had coming to the plate. After the way Ondrusek pitched to Braun and others on Monday night, I would have went to him if I were going to take Chapman out. I have a ton of confidence in Sean Marshall as a good pitcher, closer title or not, but I also think the "save" is such a joke. Its an arbitrary stat that affects how managers handle their bullpen. If there were no such thing as save or if the Brewers had Braun Ramirez and Hart due up in the 7th inning Ondrusek would have been in the game. I don't buy into the mental aspect... I buy into a guy have dominating stuff to get tough outs.

I completely agree about the save stat. The attempt to give a number to a relief pitcher measuring his value to a team in preserving wins has resulted in the artifice of using certain pitchers in exclusive situations and that is crazy. If there were no save stat I'll bet managers would handle their bullpens very differently.

[Caveat Emperor]

Originally Posted by jojo

Marshall has been one of the best relievers in baseball for several years. I submit that Marhall is not a suitable test case for the rubber road theorum....

I don't disagree -- Marshall has been fantastic. But he's never closed ballgames before and dealt with the issues involved with being a closer: irregular pitching schedule, irregular warmup time (a closer might only begin throwing 1 or 2 outs into an inning if his team takes the lead in their at bat), added mental issues associated with being "the closer," etc.

At some point, he's going to have to prove that his numbers translate to the different role.

[powersackers]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

I don't disagree -- Marshall has been fantastic. But he's never closed ballgames before and dealt with the issues involved with being a closer: irregular pitching schedule, irregular warmup time (a closer might only begin throwing 1 or 2 outs into an inning if his team takes the lead in their at bat), added mental issues associated with being "the closer," etc.

At some point, he's going to have to prove that his numbers translate to the different role.

Exactly. I wasn't baiting, because this is relevant conversation and I was stimulating it. Turns out all afternoon on MLB Radio Sirius/XM just about all they talked about were Marshall and Robertson (NYY) both 8th inning accomplished guys historically - now thrust into 9th inning duties. I was surprised how many callers and that the hosts agreed Marshall isn't suited to be a closer. Opponents are typically locked in and concentrating in the 9th and maybe they do foul off that hook more often to get a pitch they can drive.

No metric I know of measures fortitude to, in turn, bear down as well and get the high value save. Joe Borowski can save 45 games when most of them invovle a 3-run lead....so can Marshall. But the 1 run saves? Against the heart of the order or stud RH batters? Chapman or Ondrusek might be better options.

[PuffyPig]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

I don't disagree -- Marshall has been fantastic. But he's never closed ballgames before and dealt with the issues involved with being a closer: irregular pitching schedule, irregular warmup time (a closer might only begin throwing 1 or 2 outs into an inning if his team takes the lead in their at bat), added mental issues associated with being "the closer," etc.

An 8th inning set up guy is likley subject to the exact same things.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

At some point, he's going to have to prove that his numbers translate to the different role.

To be fair, he's only pitched 11 innings in a Reds uniform and has 5 saves. I think the "at some point" conversations are premature....

[Caveat Emperor]

Originally Posted by jojo

To be fair, he's only pitched 11 innings in a Reds uniform and has 5 saves. I think the "at some point" conversations are premature....

Of course this discussion is all premature -- but it's natural to expect it when you're trotting out a closer that bucks the trend of "RHP who throws really hard."

It needs to be given time to play out.