2013 Bengals Playoff Edition Discussion (Part 4)

[dabvu2498]

I'm scared to think what the Bengals would be like without Marvin Lewis.

I kind of agree. He's the counter balance to Mike Brown. Brown with another lame duck coach or a coach that he didn't trust... Ugh.

[Benihana]

The Indianapolis Colts hired a man with that exact resume.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/MoraJi0.htm

And he got fired midway through his 11th year. And he was 15 games over .500 during that time (93-78). Marvin has been exactly .500 (90-90-1).

[Benihana]

I'm scared to think what the Bengals would be like without Marvin Lewis.

Maybe. But will they ever win a playoff game with him? Methinks no, at least certainly so long as Dalton is the QB.

[dabvu2498]

And he got fired midway through his 11th year. And he was 15 games over .500 during that time (93-78). Marvin has been exactly .500 (90-90-1).

And do you know what happened to the Saints after they fired Mora?

1-7
Mike Ditka
6-10
6-10
3-13

[Yachtzee]

I kind of agree. He's the counter balance to Mike Brown. Brown with another lame duck coach or a coach that he didn't trust... Ugh.

If the Bengals were to let Marvin Lewis go, I'd say the odds are good that he makes it to the Super Bowl before the Bengals do.

[WMR]

If the Bengals were to let Marvin Lewis go, I'd say the odds are good that he makes it to the Super Bowl before the Bengals do.

Oh boy... :lol:

Talk about damning him with faint praise.

[WMR]

The Indianapolis Colts hired a man with that exact resume.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/MoraJi0.htm

So... One?

[MWM]

Maybe. But will they ever win a playoff game with him? Methinks no, at least certainly so long as Dalton is the QB.

I think this is a bit of hyperbole. They've definitely been out coached and have not prepared, but I don't believe it's so bad that they'd never win one. If they continue to progress, they'll break through. Dalton is a problem mainly because they don't have a reliable running game. NFL playoff history is littered with teams who won with worse QBs than him. The problem is that those teams didn't rely on the QB to throw 50 times.

If they're going to get rid of a coach, it should be Gruden. He's much better than Bratkowski, but the offense is wildly inconsistent and sloppy far too often. I think they could do better at OC.

[Benihana]

And do you know what happened to the Saints after they fired Mora?

1-7
Mike Ditka
6-10
6-10
3-13

...and then a Lombardi trophy and a 5-2 playoff record over the last five years. I'd happily take that over our prognosis going forward.

Look, I don't think there is much use over arguing whether to fire Marvin because I don't think it's going to happen. And it wouldn't be my first move anyway, part of this is just me talking as a frustrated fan.

But I would do what I stated in a previous post on this thread:

I would draft a QB on the second day of the draft to challenge Dalton.
I would not cry at all if Jay Gruden left to accept a head coaching position elsewhere.
And I would offer Marvin the opportunity to become full time GM and bring on a HC if he'd be willing to this offseason, and if not, give him no choice if he cannot advance in the playoffs next year. Football is too cyclical and windows are too short to not take advantage when you "have the cards" like the Bengals do now. It would be a real shame to waste the primes of AJ Green, Gio Bernard, Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap and Vontaze Burfict on a QB/HC combo of Dalton and Lewis who cannot get over the hump in the big game. Plus I think Whitworth deserves a shot before he retires for what he's given to this franchise. I'm not sure that shot will ever happen with these two at the helm.

[Yachtzee]

Oh boy... :lol:

Talk about damning him with faint praise.

I suspect with his record dealing with Mike Brown, he'd have his pick of jobs to choose from. The Bengals on the other hand, I don't know of many too coaches who would relish the idea of working for Mike Brown. So you're probably looking at them hiring a coach who got looked over by everyone else or a retread coach who already got fired for failing somewhere else.

[Joseph]

Success is measured in championships when it comes to sports. Yes division championships count in that equation, but they pale in comparison to league championships [World Series, Stanley Cups, Superbowls, NCAA's etc].

I root for a variety of teams across several sports as do most people here I suspect. I have no doubt every single one of the teams I cheer for, spend my money with, and support in a variety of ways wants to win league championships.

However I see some significant differences in each of these franchises.

As a Blackhawks fan we suffered through some very lean years. I became a fan in the early 90's. They were an exciting team, a good team, and even went to a Cup final. After that some lean years came on. They struggled with attendance. They struggled to win. Ultimately the old owner died and left the franchise to his son who has some enthusiasm for winning and understands Chicago and the passionate fan base there. Some infusion of talent, energy, and genuine involvement from the front office resulted in 2 Stanley Cups in the last 4 seasons. That's huge. Huge. The fanbase is energized again. Yes, there are many 'bandwagon' fans. So what. Their money keeps the franchise moving just like mine. It feels good to root for this franchise because they understand what success is all about.

At UK we've got a storied tradition. Several years back a mistake was made in hiring a coach who didn't understand the passion of the fanbase. That was recrified by bringing in high energy John Calipari. There couldn't be a better fit for the fans and the program. He lives and breathes basketball and loves the players. An NCAA championship came in 2012. Year after year he recruits the best players. It feels good to root for this franchise. They understand success.

The Reds and Bengals.....I don't know what to say about them these days. 18 years since either team has advanced in the playoffs. I don't think either franchise understands the definition of success.

Castelini initially felt exciting, but the bloom is fast falling off the rose. Hopefully some things change this year, but a few years back he said if momma ain't happy ain't nobody happy. Well the fans are momma, and the fans aren't happy.

With the Bengals....I don't even know where to go. It starts at the top. Ownership sets the tone and the Bengals are way out of tune. I don't know that they'd understand success if it bit them on the ass.

The difference I see in the 2 successful franchises I root for and the 2 that are less successful....ownership/leadership that cares and does whatever it takes to win. I don't hear stories about the Blackhawks not spending money anymore, but I hear about budget with the Reds and Bengals. Both franchises feel slightly less 'big league' than other places I've been. I can't explain it, but its different there. PBS is a concrete dump that cost tax payers too much. GABP is much better, but there's still something missing.

The Bengals seem to always fold, just like today. That's on Marvin, its on Mike Brown, its on Dalton. Someone needs to go. We should all expect more of the same until Brown is the one to go though. I don't know any way to think any differently. They aren't successful, and they won't be until then.

[Benihana]

If the Bengals were to let Marvin Lewis go, I'd say the odds are good that he makes it to the Super Bowl before the Bengals do.

I'd take that bet.

[Benihana]

I suspect with his record dealing with Mike Brown, he'd have his pick of jobs to choose from. The Bengals on the other hand, I don't know of many too coaches who would relish the idea of working for Mike Brown. So you're probably looking at them hiring a coach who got looked over by everyone else or a retread coach who already got fired for failing somewhere else.

Yes, he would have his pick of jobs to choose from. Just like he did in 2011 when he was forced to return after realizing there was no market for his services. The guy just can't win big games. The rest of the country realizes it. It's why there were columns like this one written by columnists from other cities (written before today's epic meltdown):

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2013/12/31/shaughnessy-marvin-lewis-andy-dalton-twin-tomato-cans-ripe-for-the-kicking/

Talk to someone from Pittsburgh. It's why they're always so confident against the Bengals. Marvin Lewis coached teams are mentally weak. Always and forever, unfortunately.

[Wonderful Monds]

Success is measured in championships when it comes to sports. Yes division championships count in that equation, but they pale in comparison to league championships [World Series, Stanley Cups, Superbowls, NCAA's etc].

I root for a variety of teams across several sports as do most people here I suspect. I have no doubt every single one of the teams I cheer for, spend my money with, and support in a variety of ways wants to win league championships.

However I see some significant differences in each of these franchises.

As a Blackhawks fan we suffered through some very lean years. I became a fan in the early 90's. They were an exciting team, a good team, and even went to a Cup final. After that some lean years came on. They struggled with attendance. They struggled to win. Ultimately the old owner died and left the franchise to his son who has some enthusiasm for winning and understands Chicago and the passionate fan base there. Some infusion of talent, energy, and genuine involvement from the front office resulted in 2 Stanley Cups in the last 4 seasons. That's huge. Huge. The fanbase is energized again. Yes, there are many 'bandwagon' fans. So what. Their money keeps the franchise moving just like mine. It feels good to root for this franchise because they understand what success is all about.

At UK we've got a storied tradition. Several years back a mistake was made in hiring a coach who didn't understand the passion of the fanbase. That was recrified by bringing in high energy John Calipari. There couldn't be a better fit for the fans and the program. He lives and breathes basketball and loves the players. An NCAA championship came in 2012. Year after year he recruits the best players. It feels good to root for this franchise. They understand success.

The Reds and Bengals.....I don't know what to say about them these days. 18 years since either team has advanced in the playoffs. I don't think either franchise understands the definition of success.

Castelini initially felt exciting, but the bloom is fast falling off the rose. Hopefully some things change this year, but a few years back he said if momma ain't happy ain't nobody happy. Well the fans are momma, and the fans aren't happy.

With the Bengals....I don't even know where to go. It starts at the top. Ownership sets the tone and the Bengals are way out of tune. I don't know that they'd understand success if it bit them on the ass.

The difference I see in the 2 successful franchises I root for and the 2 that are less successful....ownership/leadership that cares and does whatever it takes to win. I don't hear stories about the Blackhawks not spending money anymore, but I hear about budget with the Reds and Bengals. Both franchises feel slightly less 'big league' than other places I've been. I can't explain it, but its different there. PBS is a concrete dump that cost tax payers too much. GABP is much better, but there's still something missing.

The Bengals seem to always fold, just like today. That's on Marvin, its on Mike Brown, its on Dalton. Someone needs to go. We should all expect more of the same until Brown is the one to go though. I don't know any way to think any differently. They aren't successful, and they won't be until then.

Bummer, but it's all true.

[Benihana]

The Indianapolis Colts hired a man with that exact resume.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/MoraJi0.htm

Funnily enough, I recall during that last and fateful 11th season as Saints head coach, someone brought a sign to a game that said

"Fire Mora or Mora the same."

Same could be said for Marvin, without the cool name play, unfortunately.

[WMR]

Success is measured in championships when it comes to sports. Yes division championships count in that equation, but they pale in comparison to league championships [World Series, Stanley Cups, Superbowls, NCAA's etc].

I root for a variety of teams across several sports as do most people here I suspect. I have no doubt every single one of the teams I cheer for, spend my money with, and support in a variety of ways wants to win league championships.

However I see some significant differences in each of these franchises.

As a Blackhawks fan we suffered through some very lean years. I became a fan in the early 90's. They were an exciting team, a good team, and even went to a Cup final. After that some lean years came on. They struggled with attendance. They struggled to win. Ultimately the old owner died and left the franchise to his son who has some enthusiasm for winning and understands Chicago and the passionate fan base there. Some infusion of talent, energy, and genuine involvement from the front office resulted in 2 Stanley Cups in the last 4 seasons. That's huge. Huge. The fanbase is energized again. Yes, there are many 'bandwagon' fans. So what. Their money keeps the franchise moving just like mine. It feels good to root for this franchise because they understand what success is all about.

At UK we've got a storied tradition. Several years back a mistake was made in hiring a coach who didn't understand the passion of the fanbase. That was recrified by bringing in high energy John Calipari. There couldn't be a better fit for the fans and the program. He lives and breathes basketball and loves the players. An NCAA championship came in 2012. Year after year he recruits the best players. It feels good to root for this franchise. They understand success.

The Reds and Bengals.....I don't know what to say about them these days. 18 years since either team has advanced in the playoffs. I don't think either franchise understands the definition of success.

Castelini initially felt exciting, but the bloom is fast falling off the rose. Hopefully some things change this year, but a few years back he said if momma ain't happy ain't nobody happy. Well the fans are momma, and the fans aren't happy.

With the Bengals....I don't even know where to go. It starts at the top. Ownership sets the tone and the Bengals are way out of tune. I don't know that they'd understand success if it bit them on the ass.

The difference I see in the 2 successful franchises I root for and the 2 that are less successful....ownership/leadership that cares and does whatever it takes to win. I don't hear stories about the Blackhawks not spending money anymore, but I hear about budget with the Reds and Bengals. Both franchises feel slightly less 'big league' than other places I've been. I can't explain it, but its different there. PBS is a concrete dump that cost tax payers too much. GABP is much better, but there's still something missing.

The Bengals seem to always fold, just like today. That's on Marvin, its on Mike Brown, its on Dalton. Someone needs to go. We should all expect more of the same until Brown is the one to go though. I don't know any way to think any differently. They aren't successful, and they won't be until then.

Great post, Joe! You and I root for the same teams besides the Bulls, and you sum up my feelings perfectly. A+.

[WVRed]

I'm scared to think what the Bengals would be like without Marvin Lewis.

I want Marvin but in a different capacity for that very reason. Marvin is basically the Bengals version of Tony Dungy in Tampa. A good enough coach to get into the playoffs, but not enough to get over the hump.

I'd rather have Marvin as the GM. He's been an excellent evaluator of talent that we have never had, but I don't trust him (or Dalton) with the playoffs on the line. I haven't felt this empty as a Bengals fan since we got Kimo'd.

[Yachtzee]

Success is measured in championships when it comes to sports. Yes division championships count in that equation, but they pale in comparison to league championships [World Series, Stanley Cups, Superbowls, NCAA's etc].

I root for a variety of teams across several sports as do most people here I suspect. I have no doubt every single one of the teams I cheer for, spend my money with, and support in a variety of ways wants to win league championships.

However I see some significant differences in each of these franchises.

As a Blackhawks fan we suffered through some very lean years. I became a fan in the early 90's. They were an exciting team, a good team, and even went to a Cup final. After that some lean years came on. They struggled with attendance. They struggled to win. Ultimately the old owner died and left the franchise to his son who has some enthusiasm for winning and understands Chicago and the passionate fan base there. Some infusion of talent, energy, and genuine involvement from the front office resulted in 2 Stanley Cups in the last 4 seasons. That's huge. Huge. The fanbase is energized again. Yes, there are many 'bandwagon' fans. So what. Their money keeps the franchise moving just like mine. It feels good to root for this franchise because they understand what success is all about.

At UK we've got a storied tradition. Several years back a mistake was made in hiring a coach who didn't understand the passion of the fanbase. That was recrified by bringing in high energy John Calipari. There couldn't be a better fit for the fans and the program. He lives and breathes basketball and loves the players. An NCAA championship came in 2012. Year after year he recruits the best players. It feels good to root for this franchise. They understand success.

The Reds and Bengals.....I don't know what to say about them these days. 18 years since either team has advanced in the playoffs. I don't think either franchise understands the definition of success.

Castelini initially felt exciting, but the bloom is fast falling off the rose. Hopefully some things change this year, but a few years back he said if momma ain't happy ain't nobody happy. Well the fans are momma, and the fans aren't happy.

With the Bengals....I don't even know where to go. It starts at the top. Ownership sets the tone and the Bengals are way out of tune. I don't know that they'd understand success if it bit them on the ass.

The difference I see in the 2 successful franchises I root for and the 2 that are less successful....ownership/leadership that cares and does whatever it takes to win. I don't hear stories about the Blackhawks not spending money anymore, but I hear about budget with the Reds and Bengals. Both franchises feel slightly less 'big league' than other places I've been. I can't explain it, but its different there. PBS is a concrete dump that cost tax payers too much. GABP is much better, but there's still something missing.

The Bengals seem to always fold, just like today. That's on Marvin, its on Mike Brown, its on Dalton. Someone needs to go. We should all expect more of the same until Brown is the one to go though. I don't know any way to think any differently. They aren't successful, and they won't be until then.

Try hanging out with Clevelanders sometime. Most of my friends are Browns, Indians, and Cavs fans. They haven't seen a championship in their lifetimes. And whenever a team gets close, it's like the entire city gets a punch in the gut.Cleveland fans can go on and on about Red Right 88 and "The Fumble" when it comes to the Browns. Jose Freakin' Mesa for the Indians. "The Shot" and "I'm taking my talents to South Beach" for the Cavs. When Cleveland teams fail in the playoffs, they fail in spectacular fashion. Then, such playoff failures are usually followed by years of suckitude. It's been an unending cycle since 1964, when the Browns last won the NFL championship.

[dougdirt]

Do you mean Dan Shaughnessy, the Boston Globe columnist who promoted the whole "Curse of the Bambino" myth to explain the Red Sox' problems in the playoffs? Maybe if the Bengals were a Boston team he could cook up some metaphysical hokum to explain the Bengals' playoff problems.

I've been promoting the Pete Rose curse for years. He was banned from the HOF in 1991. This city has been an utter disappointment in sports ever since.

[LoganBuck]

I prefer the curse of Curtis Goodwin

Aaron Murray anyone?

[Joseph]

I've been promoting the Pete Rose curse for years. He was banned from the HOF in 1991. This city has been an utter disappointment in sports ever since.

I've been pushing the Chili Curse.

I don't mind the Pete one though, pretty good.

[Yachtzee]

Yes, he would have his pick of jobs to choose from. Just like he did in 2011 when he was forced to return after realizing there was no market for his services. The guy just can't win big games. The rest of the country realizes it. It's why there were columns like this one written by columnists from other cities (written before today's epic meltdown):

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2013/12/31/shaughnessy-marvin-lewis-andy-dalton-twin-tomato-cans-ripe-for-the-kicking/

Talk to someone from Pittsburgh. It's why they're always so confident against the Bengals. Marvin Lewis coached teams are mentally weak. Always and forever, unfortunately.

Again with Mr. Curse of the Bambino? Have you ever listened to this guy talk? Even Boston fans can't stand him. Just because he agrees with you doesn't mean he's right. That would be like quoting John Fay about the Reds. The fact that he's making your point makes it less legitimate. The man is a tool. And they've beaten the Steelers in big games before. The Steelers fans just like to pick and choose which games to focus on.

[Benihana]

Try hanging out with Clevelanders sometime. Most of my friends are Browns, Indians, and Cavs fans. They haven't seen a championship in their lifetimes. And whenever a team gets close, it's like the entire city gets a punch in the gut.Cleveland fans can go on and on about Red Right 88 and "The Fumble" when it comes to the Browns. Jose Freakin' Mesa for the Indians. "The Shot" and "I'm taking my talents to South Beach" for the Cavs. When Cleveland teams fail in the playoffs, they fail in spectacular fashion. Then, such playoff failures are usually followed by years of suckitude. It's been an unending cycle since 1964, when the Browns last won the NFL championship.
The Bengals and Reds both failed in the playoffs in spectacular fashion this year. The Reds did last year too. And in 2010.

This was probably the first "spectacular fail" (as opposed to a whimper) for the Bengals since the Kimo game. I'm not sure it matters how you fail though.

[Benihana]

And they've beaten the Steelers in big games before. The Steelers fans just like to pick and choose which games to focus on.

Yep, like the playoff ones.

Bengals franchise sure has a lot on the Steelers. :rolleyes:

(And I'm a Bengals fan, unfortunately)

[dougdirt]

And they've beaten the Steelers in big games before. The Steelers fans just like to pick and choose which games to focus on.

Like the ones in the playoffs?

Don't get me wrong, I had this argument a few weeks ago when they lost to the Steelers. The Bengals can beat them. But playoff wins and losses matter a whole lot more and the Bengals don't have anything at all to stand on. They are in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

[Joseph]

The Bengals and Reds both failed in the playoffs in spectacular fashion this year. The Reds did last year too. And in 2010.

This was probably the first "spectacular fail" (as opposed to a whimper) for the Bengals since the Kimo game. I'm not sure it matters how you fail though.

Doesn't matter how you fail no, failure is failure and the Bengals are masters at it.

I won't argue that it might be worse in other places, not at all, but considering this is MY fandom here I will say that I don't care about Cleveland or other cities who have long histories of no success. Cincinnati....whether its Rose or what it is....is starting to have a feeling I can't quite describe in any way BUT a curse or something more ridiculous [and yes I know the idea of a cursed city/franchise is ridiculous] but it just happens time and time and time again. I debated with a friend on twitter at one point today [again I know that sounds ridiculous] about this Bengals team. He makes the same argument you hear from local sports personalities [Mo, Lance, Lindsay P] that this team didn't care about 2005, or even the last two years, this team was different and it was going to move ahead. Well I told him I'd seen and heard all that before, but they didn't win the Super Bowl back in 89 when I was a kid, they didn't win the 2005 game, they didn't win the last two years. He had 'excuses' for why not. To me WHY didn't really matter to the 'curse', but the fact that they didn't win DID matter.

This team, and maybe this city is suffering from something....a hangover, a curse, statistics even-ing out after the Reds 70's era success....I don't know and I don't care why or what you call it, I just know there isn't a lot of success, so all you can do is enjoy a beer at the game with friends and family and lower your expectations.

I'm not really good at that. I expect championships.

[Yachtzee]

Doesn't matter how you fail no, failure is failure and the Bengals are masters at it.

I won't argue that it might be worse in other places, not at all, but considering this is MY fandom here I will say that I don't care about Cleveland or other cities who have long histories of no success. Cincinnati....whether its Rose or what it is....is starting to have a feeling I can't quite describe in any way BUT a curse or something more ridiculous [and yes I know the idea of a cursed city/franchise is ridiculous] but it just happens time and time and time again. I debated with a friend on twitter at one point today [again I know that sounds ridiculous] about this Bengals team. He makes the same argument you hear from local sports personalities [Mo, Lance, Lindsay P] that this team didn't care about 2005, or even the last two years, this team was different and it was going to move ahead. Well I told him I'd seen and heard all that before, but they didn't win the Super Bowl back in 89 when I was a kid, they didn't win the 2005 game, they didn't win the last two years. He had 'excuses' for why not. To me WHY didn't really matter to the 'curse', but the fact that they didn't win DID matter.

This team, and maybe this city is suffering from something....a hangover, a curse, statistics even-ing out after the Reds 70's era success....I don't know and I don't care why or what you call it, I just know there isn't a lot of success, so all you can do is enjoy a beer at the game with friends and family and lower your expectations.

I'm not really good at that. I expect championships.

You shouldn't talk about curses, otherwise you start sounding like Cubs fans and their ridiculous belief that a goat has power over their team's fortunes. Isn't the fact that Cubs fans believe in a curse reason enough not to buy into one?

[Hillsdale87]

I know that you can teach some touch. You can't teach 20 extra yards on a long ball so AJ Green has to slow up and let the DB's catch up to him.

I'm guessing Dalton has about as strong an arm as Drew Brees. Dalton doesn't have great arm strength, but it's enough. The issue is that if you don't have elite arm strength, you have to have great accuracy, which is something that people gave Dalton a lot of credit for coming out of college. That has not really manifested itself during his career with the Bengals

[Yachtzee]

There is only one curse the Bengals and Reds have suffered from over the years and it is the curse of inept ownership from the 1990s through the first decade of the 2000s. For the Reds, Marge Schott chased off anyone with with talent at scouting players and left the team with having to survive on reclamation projects. For the Bengals, Paul Brown died and took all his football acumen with him. So now, in the 2010s, we have an owner of the Reds who has shown a commitment to building a winning ball club and for the Bengals, we have an owner who has finally deferred to his coaching staff on how to build a team. The big difference between now and then for me is that I feel that, if they stay on track and keep working hard, tbe breakthrough will come, whereas before I had no hope at all, other than that a change of ownership might come.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

You shouldn't talk about curses, otherwise you start sounding like Cubs fans and their ridiculous belief that a goat has power over their team's fortunes. Isn't the fact that Cubs fans believe in a curse reason enough not to buy into one?


Semantics. Call it whatever you want. There's definitely something to it.

[RiverRat13]

Dalton turned the ball over 26 times in 17 games this season. The next closest QB who made the playoffs is Drew Brees with 16. You can't have a QB continually giving the ball to the other team and expect to be a legitimate Super Bowl contender.

[Hillsdale87]

I want Marvin but in a different capacity for that very reason. Marvin is basically the Bengals version of Tony Dungy in Tampa. A good enough coach to get into the playoffs, but not enough to get over the hump.


I don't think that is fair. Marvin has been to the playoffs 4 times. In 2005, his starting QB tore his ACL on the first drive of the game. In the last three appearances, he has had a QB who has fallen apart. Marvin may not be a coach that can get his team over the hump, but give him a good QB and that changes things.

There are 8 teams left in the playoffs right now, and they all have QBs better than Dalton. Newton, Brees, Brady, Manning, Wilson, and Luck are probably 6 of the top 7 QBs in the NFL. Either Dalton or Alex Smith were the worst QBs on playoff teams this year, but their performances this weekend were about as opposite as can be.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

The Bengals could have Payton Manning or Roger Staubach in his prime and something crazy would happen. Doesn't matter who the QB or coach is they will find a way to choke it away. Something in the water here. Curse? Maybe not literally, but I have zero confidence from what I've seen the past 20 plus years to think that they or the Reds (Browns, Cavs, Tribe, CBJ, etc.) or any team affiliated with this God forsaken state would ever not choke it away or find a way to lose somehow.

Yet, I still keep watching and waiting. Why? Dunno. Bored I guess.

[WVRed]

I don't think that is fair. Marvin has been to the playoffs 4 times. In 2005, his starting QB tore his ACL on the first drive of the game. In the last three appearances, he has had a QB who has fallen apart. Marvin may not be a coach that can get his team over the hump, but give him a good QB and that changes things.

There are 8 teams left in the playoffs right now, and they all have QBs better than Dalton. Newton, Brees, Brady, Manning, Wilson, and Luck are probably 6 of the top 7 QBs in the NFL. Either Dalton or Alex Smith were the worst QBs on playoff teams this year, but their performances this weekend were about as opposite as can be.

Five times. Marvin lost to the Jets at Paul Brown Stadium with Palmer at QB. Two losses with Palmer, three with Dalton.

[Hillsdale87]

Five times. Marvin lost to the Jets at Paul Brown Stadium with Palmer at QB. Two losses with Palmer, three with Dalton.

Yea I forgot about the Jets game. I guess I tried to scrub that one from my memory. My point about the QBs still stands though. Palmer has not been a top QB since 2006.

[fearofpopvol1]

I would. It's time for a change at the top

I just can't see how Marvin shouldn't be axed. But if David Shula can lose 50 out of 69 games and Bruce Coslet gets a new deal going 21-39, anything can happen with Brown in charge.

[The Operator]

I just can't see how Marvin shouldn't be axed. But if David Shula can lose 50 out of 69 games and Bruce Coslet gets a new deal going 21-39, anything can happen with Brown in charge.Why would Mikey fire Marvin? He's been Vince Lombardi compared to all the other rejects Mikey has hired over the years.

Granted, I think Marvin has gotten them as far as he can and should be moved to the GM position. BUT - I seriously doubt it will ever happen. Mikey is too loyal and the money is pouring in, so I doubt he cares in the slightest that they've been an epic failure when it really counts under Marvin.

[fearofpopvol1]

Why would Mikey fire Marvin? He's been Vince Lombardi compared to all the other rejects Mikey has hired over the years.

Granted, I think Marvin has gotten them as far as he can and should be moved to the GM position. BUT - I seriously doubt it will ever happen. Mikey is too loyal and the money is pouring in, so I doubt he cares in the slightest that they've been an epic failure when it really counts under Marvin.

11 years, 0 playoff wins. That should be enough for any team quite honestly.

The team they had this year was very talented and should've at least won their first playoff game IMO. I don't put it all on Lewis, but I think the team would benefit from a new coach.

[Matt700wlw]

0-5.

I won't put 2005 on him, so 0-4, and a dirty Steelers team.

Marvin knows talent. He'd make a good GM.

Mike Zimmer is the best coach on this staff...

[Matt700wlw]

11 years, 0 playoff wins. That should be enough for any team quite honestly.

The team they had this year was very talented and should've at least won their first playoff game IMO. I don't put it all on Lewis, but I think the team would benefit from a new coach.

Marvin is Dusty

[The Operator]

11 years, 0 playoff wins. That should be enough for any team quite honestly.

The team they had this year was very talented and should've at least won their first playoff game IMO. I don't put it all on Lewis, but I think the team would benefit from a new coach.I'm with you, I just think there's about a 0% chance of it happening.

[Matt700wlw]

In 20 years Mike Brown will be dead. So there's that

[cumberlandreds]

Marvin is Dusty

I agree with that. I'm not a Bengals fan but have kept track of them over the years. Have always been sorta of a 2nd favorite team. But anyway,Lewis seems like Dusty's brother. He can get a team to a certain point but just can't get them over the hump. Saying that I don't think he did anything yesterday for that loss. That was almost all on Dalton and Bernard. Horrible turnovers by both. You can't do that in a regular season game and win. Not to mention a playoff game. Bengals need a QB bad if they want to make that next step. Dalton just doesn't seem like a winning QB to me.

[KoryMac5]

The only thing I can see happening going forward is more of the same. This team is loyal to a fault.

Personally I would promote Hue to OC and draft a QB in rounds 2-4, unfortunately it won't happen. Marvin was already in defense mode in regards to Dalton.

[GAC]

Looking at this the NEXT DAY.... and getting caught up on this thread .... I am very sympathetic Bengal fans (fellow Ohioans) when I say "I feel your pain". Believe me, I wanted the Bengals to win!

But to those that want to dump Dalton, can we step back from the ledge for just a minute for some contemplation? I say this not so much as a Bengal follower (which I am), or a fellow Ohioan, but more as a Brown's fan. So once again, endure a long-winded response from GAC....

Browns fans have seen more QBs shuffle in and out of their organization, since they came back into the league, then frantic women with shopping carts trying to fight their way into Walmart on Black Friday. We've had 19 starting QBs since 1999. We were so desperate we actually signed Jake Delhomme!! Think about that! We have to go back 30 years (Bernie Kosar) to find a Brown's QB that came close to any semblance in what you have now (or even Carson Palmer for that matter!). And even then it's debatable as to how good Kosar really was. The guy ran like a three-legged dog chasing a mail truck. But that's how far we have to go back.

Yeah, it's true that Dalton is 0-3 in post-season games. He hasn't looked good. No denying. But lets look a little more in-depth at it....

Let's set the stage by first looking at 2010 (pre-Dalton), when the Bengals finished 4-12 (last in the AFC North). The following year you hand the job to a ROOKIE QB from Texas Christian. He didn't have a bad year, and was instrumental in the team's turn-around to a 9-7 record and WC berth.

But you then traveled to Houston to face a very formidable Texan team whose defense was probably the best in the NFL. And their defense shutdown every aspect of your offense (running, passing), and smothered your rookie QB. Your offensive line was manhandled/outmatched that day. You were underdogs going into that game, and I'm certainly not going to put that loss entirely on a rookie QB with no post-season experience.

Last year (2012) is pretty much the same scenario. The Bengals improved to 10-6, won the division ... Andy get any credit for that? ...but in the post-season you were once again underdogs facing a better 12-4 Texan team (with the return of Schaub at QB), and again one of the NFL's best defenses. It was a close game, but once again your offense hit a wall. The entire blame for the loss can't be laid at the feet of Dalton. Not when one look's at the opponent's strengths.

Yeah, this year is different. You guys were favored, went 8-0 at home, and there is no reason (excuse) for losing this one. And I'm certainly not going to make excuses for Dalton's performance. But consider this too ....

The Charger's defense played out their *****, really fired up. Now whether that was due to the coaching staff (I don't know). Your offensive line was terrible. Dalton made some bad decisions with the ball in the second half no doubt. He tries to force the issue; but he was also under constant pressure (scrambling).

And while there may be no excuse for Dalton's turnovers, Benard's fumble - IMO, he shouldn't have allowed it to be stripped. Protect the ball! - cost the Bengals 7 pts. And AJ had a terrible game, and IMO should have caught that deep pass which cost you more points.

But I will say this - and it caught my attention midway through the 3rd quarter when it was still a game - they showed the Bengal's bench, and the players all had this deflated "we're already beat" look on their faces. I thought -"Where is the leadership, someone to be firing these guys up with the "Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor! speech. It was like your bench was sulking when you were still in it.

In the regular season you have a QB who through games 1-15 posted a 91.0 passer rating (fourth in AFC and 10th in NFL), 7th in the NFL in passing yards (4296), 3rd in TDs (33), and 8th in Completions (363). Yeah, the downside was he was 5th in INTs (20). But he wasn't Eli!

But if you want to dump him, we'll trade you QBs Brandon "We Done" and Jason Campbell. Ah heck, I'm in a generous mood... I'll also throw in Greg Little. ;)

You can be angry right now. It's justified. But don't be so quick just yet to give up on Andy.

IMO, I'd change your head coach ... or promote him to the FO as some suggest ... before I'd dump your QB. There is something about Marvin Lewis, when it comes to motivating his players, getting them ready for critical games, where he shows lack.

[Hoosier Red]

I wouldn't get too caught up in seeing the body language. I was driving home Saturday night listening to the Colts game, and after the Chefs scored to make it 38-10, Bob Lamey noted how the Colts all looked like they'd already been defeated too.

[bucksfan2]

This thread is funny reading after the fact. That was the worst game the Bengals have played this entire year and probably the worst offensive game plan I have seen in the Gruden era. For the life of me I just don't know what he was thinking. Dalton was bad, really bad, but Gruden was worse. The Bernard fumble was a killer, going into half with the momentum and a 7 point lead may have put the Chargers away.

Dalton isn't going anywhere, Lewis isn't going anywhere, hopefully Gruden is given a HC job and they get a new OC in. I like Gruden, think he can come up with good plans, but too often he has "off days." Talk of a curse is laughable and stupid, there isn't a curse. There really isn't anything other than being beat on a football field. What the Reds do has nothing to do with what the Bengals do. What the Bengals do has nothing to do with what Joe Schmoe Bengals fan thinks. The irony is football games are decided by split seconds, Bernard is hit one second earlier or later and it is an incomplete pass or a great play. Unfortunately he was hit at the wrong time and it led to a killer fumble.

Dalton needs to limit his turn overs but after watching a lot of football this season he is a NFL caliber starting QB. He is a QB you can win with, just needs to get that monkey off his back.

[Benihana]

Having slept on it, one thing is clear: the Bengals need to make at least one change at either QB or Head Coach. The change doesn't have to be stark but could be gradual- like promoting Marvin to GM or bringing in a Day 2 draftee to compete with (and eventually replace) Dalton.

If they continue on (which they will) with Dalton and Marvin, don't expect the future to be any different than the past.

[traderumor]

I was very disappointed yesterday, there's really no excuse, you should win a home playoff game against a 9-7 team. With that said, some days the other coach gets the golden ticket, and the second half defensive adjustments won the day. The blitzing totally threw an excellent offensive line for a loop. I'm guessing they may have picked up something from the first Ravens game, because that was the only other time I recall the offensive line being dominated with a pass rush.

With that said, any given Sunday applies to the playoffs, and call it what you will, choke job, curse, outcoached, can't win the big one, so on and so forth, where do you go from here? Do you fire a coach who gets your team to the playoffs? Does that really solve anything? Is Dalton just a choker? Was he really to blame for the poor second half performance? I'd say it was the pressure that caused the errors, except for the one bonehead interception on the pass to Eifert. Anyhow, onward and upward ought to be their attitude. What else do you do? Go all Eeyore?

[Kingspoint]

If the Bengals were to let Marvin Lewis go, I'd say the odds are good that he makes it to the Super Bowl before the Bengals do.You know what would have to freeze over before he'd make it as a Head Coach.

[Kingspoint]

I'm scared to think what the Bengals would be like without Marvin Lewis.
A fan base that's satisfied with Lewis scares me.

[Stray]

I was very disappointed yesterday, there's really no excuse, you should win a home playoff game against a 9-7 team. With that said, some days the other coach gets the golden ticket, and the second half defensive adjustments won the day. The blitzing totally threw an excellent offensive line for a loop. I'm guessing they may have picked up something from the first Ravens game, because that was the only other time I recall the offensive line being dominated with a pass rush.

With that said, any given Sunday applies to the playoffs, and call it what you will, choke job, curse, outcoached, can't win the big one, so on and so forth, where do you go from here? Do you fire a coach who gets your team to the playoffs? Does that really solve anything? Is Dalton just a choker? Was he really to blame for the poor second half performance? I'd say it was the pressure that caused the errors, except for the one bonehead interception on the pass to Eifert. Anyhow, onward and upward ought to be their attitude. What else do you do? Go all Eeyore?

It's lazy to say Dalton is a choker and put all of the blame on him. I know some will, but to me in that entire 2nd half the entire offense looked confused and/or tight. When they'd zoom in on players they all had the same deer in headlights look. Dalton was just one of many.

Agree their pressure was the difference in the second half, but it's not like our line hasn't seen blitzes before. They were just getting beat and I can't really explain it. Goes back to the entire offense melting down in the 2nd half.

Then there was AJ's drop, it didn't look like he was running all out on the pattern, and he looked confused after the play...no idea what that means. Gio's fumble was a killer, but his drop at the end of the game was huge as well. He also had the deer in headlights look on his face after that drop, like he was confused. If he makes that catch we kick a field goal and maybe have a chance to onside and tie the game.

Do we fire a coach that gets us to the playoffs? That's a tough one. Ultimately teams take on the personality of their head coach, and the team played a nervous half of football yesterday with the game on the line. Do all of our players get tight, or is it a reflection of Marvin? No idea. We were also outcoached yesterday in the 2nd half, but it's just another on the long list of reasons that we lost.

I guess in my ideal scenario there would be an agreement for Marvin to stay with the franchise with a front office position while we promoted Zimmer to head coach and Hue to OC. I don't know how good of a x's and o's coach Zim would be, but I've seen enough of our defense to know that his leadership is top notch. If our team took on his personality I'd be just fine with that. But another one of my ideal scenarios is to win the Powerball and that may happen first.

No easy answers. Even the day later I don't know what I think we should do.

[kaldaniels]

It's such a QB driven league now, it's ridiculous.

Of the 8 QB left...who is Dalton better than?

Of the 24 QB eliminated from the post season right now, who is a top-8 QB? Rogers is one. Anyone else?

Your team is as good as its QB.

[Sea Ray]

I'd like to see the Bengals at least try to do a little something creative to address our situation. First of all I wonder if AJ Green shows a little trepidation about signing long term if they commit to Dalton? Reading AJ's body language when Dalton can't hit him when he's wide open for a TD, I think he's frustrated.

I wonder if New England would be open to a trade for Ryan Mallett? We could offer a TE and a draft pick. Mallett will be 26 this year. He can't sit behind Brady anymore. My guess is he'd love the chance to work with the weapons we have here. Such a change might necessitate a change in coordinators too from Gruden to Hue as we'd become a bit more vertical but I think think is the sort of thing that needs to be explored

[UKFlounder]

Maybe Roethlesberger :barf:




It's such a QB driven league now, it's ridiculous.

Of the 8 QB left...who is Dalton better than?

Of the 24 QB eliminated from the post season right now, who is a top-8 QB? Rogers is one. Anyone else?

Your team is as good as its QB.

[Rock of Truth]

Mark Sanchez. :lol::laugh::eek::lol::laugh::eek:

[kaldaniels]

Maybe Roethlesberger :barf:

Big Ben is too long in the tooth for me to call him a top 8 QB.

Then again, I'm the guy that had P Manning as the 8-9th best QB going forward the year he was out with the neck injury, so what do I know? :confused:

[Redhook]

Then there was AJ's drop, it didn't look like he was running all out on the pattern, and he looked confused after the play...no idea what that means.

AJ had to slow down because the ball was severely under thrown.....again. Then, the defender knocked it out of his hands. He didn't drop it. If Dalton threw it a little further, it would've been a touchdown. AJ probably looked confused because he couldn't fathom how an NFL qb could throw such a poor pass.

[Hillsdale87]

Marvin is Dusty

That's far too simple. Dusty has had teams that were World Series favorites multiple times in his career and done nothing with them. Lewis has always had teams that overachieved until this year. This was really the first year that great things were expected. In 2005, the offense carried a poor defense. In 2009, nobody expected the Bengals to be good. Same in 2011. In 2012, they again overachieved. This year they were largely seen as an AFC favorite by experts, with the caveat that the team would only go far if they could minimize bad Andy. Well Bad Andy reared his head in the worst way in the 2nd half yesterday.

Even just looking at yesterday's game, while I was not a fan of the gameplan on either side of the ball, a couple of unforced errors really cost the Bengals that game. Bernard's fumble in the first half was huge. Dalton's diving fumble. Dalton's second interception into double coverage against no pass rush. Green dropping a TD pass. These are not things that Marvin can account for. Players need to make plays. Those weren't even difficult plays.

That's not to let Marvin completely off the hook for yesterday's game. Like I said, I thought the gameplan on both sides of the ball was pretty poor, although offensively that is much more on Gruden. The Bengals actually moved the ball well, with 440 yards of offense. But the short yardage playcalling left a lot to be desired. The 3rd and 1 at the 45 screen pass to Bernard really sticks out. Similarly, the defense has been abused in each of the last 3 playoff games. I have no idea if that is a Lewis or Zimmer thing, but the defense has had one of its worst games of the season in the playoffs.

[Hillsdale87]

AJ had to slow down because the ball was severely under thrown.....again. Then, the defender knocked it out of his hands. He didn't drop it. If Dalton threw it a little further, it would've been a touchdown. AJ probably looked confused because he couldn't fathom how an NFL qb could throw such a poor pass.

That was not a bad throw. It wasn't perfect, but it was really good. Dalton was maybe off by a yard on a 50 yard pass - that is fine. The defender did not touch the pass. Green just flat out dropped it. He made a couple great catches in that game, but it's unfortunate that he didn't come through on that one.

[Stray]

AJ had to slow down because the ball was severely under thrown.....again. Then, the defender knocked it out of his hands. He didn't drop it. If Dalton threw it a little further, it would've been a touchdown. AJ probably looked confused because he couldn't fathom how an NFL qb could throw such a poor pass.

It wasn't a perfect pass but it wasn't bad either. And I'm talking about at the beginning of the route, when AJ was jogging like he was just running a clear out and wasn't going to be thrown to.

That's a pass the 2nd best WR needs to make in that situation.

[jimbo]

I wonder if there's ever been a baseball/football city who's teams have both fired their head coach and manager in the same year after they both took their respective team to the playoffs?

[KoryMac5]

Jay Gruden looks to be the hot name in coaching for several teams according to a blurb on rotoworld.

[Hillsdale87]

Jay Gruden looks to be the hot name in coaching for several teams according to a blurb on rotoworld.

If that means that Hue Jackson gets promoted to OC, that would be fantastic

[Tom Servo]

Just remember that the Chargers thought it was a good idea to fire that loser who couldn't win the big games in Marty Schottenheimer and then proceeded to hire Norv Turner. And look at the Buccaneers post firing Jon Gruden.

[Stray]

Just remember that the Chargers thought it was a good idea to fire that loser who couldn't win the big games in Marty Schottenheimer and then proceeded to hire Norv Turner. And look at the Buccaneers post firing Jon Gruden.

I think that's a flawed way to look at it. Not that I'm convinced we need to fire Marvin, but saying we shouldn't because the next guy might stink doesn't make sense. If the next guy stinks then we'll need to fire him. If we believe we can do better than Marvin then that's what we should do.

[nmculbreth]

Mark Sanchez has actually won playoff games.

[Sea Ray]

There's only so much Dalton can do with what God's given him. He doesn't have a strong arm, a tall body or quick feet. On top of all that, I don't think he's as accurate as was his billing coming out of college? Do any of you see that differently?

I don't need Aaron Rodgers back there but if we just got a QB who's 6'5" with a stronger arm, at the very least we'll see fewer batted down passes and fewer underthrown AJ Green TD passes.

I don't know if this will ever be proven true but IMO if we did stick a QB with those attributes in there, we'd soon see that this offense is so talented that any avg QB could put up the results that Dalton did if given the reps and off season coaching. Maybe I'm being unfair to him but I think most NFL QBs could have taken this talented team to 11-5 this year. A 2nd string guy nearly beat the Chargers a week ago

[Stray]

I think Dalton's deep ball concern is totally overblown. I have questions about Dalton, but his ability to complete more deep passes is prolly at the bottom of the list. They're low percentage throws and without looking I'd guess he's league average-ish completing them.

The turnovers and decision making are what trouble me.

[KoryMac5]

Two positives from yesterdays game: Marvin Jones was a beast and Rey Maulaluga finally had a good game, probably the best I have seen from him. I think Jones going forward will help AJ out immensely.

[nmculbreth]

Jay Gruden looks to be the hot name in coaching for several teams according to a blurb on rotoworld.

I don't get the infatuation with Gruden. He's done an okay job here but I certainly won't be heartbroken if he left.

[Roy Tucker]

About the only realistic change I'd see is a more veteran QB brought in to back up/relieve Dalton. I don't think Lewis or Gruden will get fired. Even viewing it through the lens of yesterday's game, that's premature. But I can see more competition getting thrown at Dalton and that 2014 is his make or break season.

[bucksfan2]

A tweet from Aditi Kinkhabwala. This is what I find troubling about the game prep.


Multiple Chargers tell me Bengals did NOTHING offensively that they hadn't prepared for. No tweaks, no surprises.

[paintmered]

The team has questionable confidence and a fragile psyche, so let's introduce a quarterback controversy into the mix?

That doesn't seem like a good idea. Dalton is either the man or he isn't. He's already looking over his shoulder in the pocket, so let's not have him doing the same on the sideline.

[RedTeamGo!]

Mark Sanchez won 4 road playoff games.

[traderumor]

A tweet from Aditi Kinkhabwala. This is what I find troubling about the game prep.There's 16 game films, they had played each other, I'm not sure "wrinkles" or "new looks" is a realistic expectation for a playoff game, esp. for a team that had been rolling on offense in PBS. It sounds to me like some chest thumping (which they should) by the Chargers. But its gotta be someone's fault, I guess.

[traderumor]

And he doesn't have red hair.

[KoryMac5]

Gruden to Washington is the hot rumor on the NFL network.

[KoryMac5]

Did this really need its own thread.

[GAC]

Jay Gruden looks to be the hot name in coaching for several teams according to a blurb on rotoworld.

I don't know what it is about Gruden - can't put my finger on it - but I don't like him for some reason.

[GAC]

I don't think Lewis or Gruden will get fired.

I just don't see them firing a head coach - irregardless of his 0-fer record in post-season games - because he is getting you into the post-season.

Why? Two words..... Mike Brown.

[KoryMac5]

I don't know what it is about Gruden - can't put my finger on it - but I don't like him for some reason.

Gruden worked with the GM for the Skins in Tampa back when Jon coached so they have a history.

I will be happy, happy, happy if Hue gets promoted to OC.

[Hoosier Red]

I think Dalton's deep ball concern is totally overblown. I have questions about Dalton, but his ability to complete more deep passes is prolly at the bottom of the list. They're low percentage throws and without looking I'd guess he's league average-ish completing them.

The turnovers and decision making are what trouble me.

I agree with this as well as alot of what Sea Ray posted interestingly.

A QB doesn't have to be 6'5" or have a rocket for an arm, but if his arm strength is less than ideal, he needs to be able to process information more quickly than a stronger armed quarterback, because he needs to anticipate a throw a half beat faster than another quarterback would.

When he's not able to do that, it looks like he's locking in on receivers, it looks like he's underthrowing them, and it looks like he's simply floating a pass to the out route.

When he's playing well, the decisions come quicker and he's making the "right" throw more often. When he's under pressure and/or not playing as well, his decision making slows down just a touch, but that allows defenders to jump routes and get to balls that he isn't able to throw ahead of them.

All else being equal, it's easier to have a high completion percentage when a quarterback can naturally throw harder. So if a quarterback's arm doesn't allow that as much, he has to be above average somewhere else to compensate.

[RiverRat13]

I think Gruden's last name is an obvious reason that he's getting so much hype, but that's not the only reason. I think a lot of Bengals fans believe Gruden is holding Dalton's development back while from everything that I've read the national perception is that people are impressed with what Gruden has accomplished with such a limited quarterback. Therein lies the disconnect with what Bengals fans think of Jay as compared to why he is getting head coaching interviews.

And not that I bow at the alter of national pundits, but I do find this comment from Peter King to be somewhat sobering,

"It’s one thing for fans to not trust Andy Dalton, and those from Lima to Lexington surely won’t in 2014. But Dalton’s biggest problem going forward is that his own locker room isn’t going to trust him, regardless of what the players and coaches say publicly".

[bucksfan2]

I think Gruden's last name is an obvious reason that he's getting so much hype, but that's not the only reason. I think a lot of Bengals fans believe Gruden is holding Dalton's development back while from everything that I've read the national perception is that people are impressed with what Gruden has accomplished with such a limited quarterback. Therein lies the disconnect with what Bengals fans think of Jay as compared to why he is getting head coaching interviews.

And not that I bow at the alter of national pundits, but I do find this comment from Peter King to be somewhat sobering,

"It’s one thing for fans to not trust Andy Dalton, and those from Lima to Lexington surely won’t in 2014. But Dalton’s biggest problem going forward is that his own locker room isn’t going to trust him, regardless of what the players and coaches say publicly".

I think Gruden is a good OC but at times he gets into ruts. I don't know if his mind is just turning too fast and he wants to get too cute, but he often times out thinks himself.

As for Peter King I always take what he has to say about the Bengals with a grain of salt. I don't know if he holds a grudge against the franchise from the time when he was covering them, but his praise is very faint of the Bengals.

[MWM]

I think Dalton's deep ball concern is totally overblown. I have questions about Dalton, but his ability to complete more deep passes is prolly at the bottom of the list. They're low percentage throws and without looking I'd guess he's league average-ish completing them.

The turnovers and decision making are what trouble me.

Agree with this completely. Dalton's biggest issue is those 2-3 dumb decisions he makes in a lot of the games.

One of his biggest issues is he is pretty bad at throwing the ball away when most good QBs would be doing it. He takes sacks that are completely unnecessary. All QBs get fidgety under pressure, but he tends to freeze up mentally more often than most. He's not good at throwing on the run, or stepping up in the pocket to escape pressure. Basically, he's pretty good when he has a good pocket, but pretty bad without it.

Dalton is such a hard guy to fully project. All QBs look good at times, and not so good at other times. But with Dalton it's very extreme on both sides, I have a hard time understanding how much is him vs coaching / game planning. Him being that good at times, and that bad at others doesn't make much sense. There has to be more to it than just him. But we'll never know until he plays under a different coordinator.

[Redsfaithful]

You know who I want fired? Paul Alexander.

Look at this:

- Nate Livings played over Evan Mathis who is now All-Pro
- Anthony Collins has sat for years and we now know he is starter caliber
- They cut guard Travelle Wharton last summer who then started all year for the 12-4 Panthers.
- Eric Ghiaciuc started at center for three years
- Championed Stacey Andrews, who received a franchise tag one year despite not having a starting position
- Zeitler seemed to regress this year (may have been due to injury)

Now obviously he's not the only one making these decisions, but in Hard Knocks it certainly seemed like the position coaches have heavy input into who stays and goes in their position groups, and I am guessing they also have heavy input into who starts and sits.

They know they have an average quarterback and yet they allow this guy to continuously butcher the offensive line. From what I have read he is close to Mike Brown from way back, so I am sure we'll never see a change, but the offensive line is, and has been, a real problem since about 2005.

The misread on the talent of Mathis alone would be enough for me to fire the guy.

[Sea Ray]

You know who I want fired? Paul Alexander.

Look at this:

- Nate Livings played over Evan Mathis who is now All-Pro
- Anthony Collins has sat for years and we now know he is starter caliber
- They cut guard Travelle Wharton last summer who then started all year for the 12-4 Panthers.
- Eric Ghiaciuc started at center for three years
- Championed Stacey Andrews, who received a franchise tag one year despite not having a starting position
- Zeitler seemed to regress this year (may have been due to injury)

Now obviously he's not the only one making these decisions, but in Hard Knocks it certainly seemed like the position coaches have heavy input into who stays and goes in their position groups, and I am guessing they also have heavy input into who starts and sits.

They know they have an average quarterback and yet they allow this guy to continuously butcher the offensive line. From what I have read he is close to Mike Brown from way back, so I am sure we'll never see a change, but the offensive line is, and has been, a real problem since about 2005.

The misread on the talent of Mathis alone would be enough for me to fire the guy.

You defend your point on Alexander very thoroughly. I wonder if Hue is elevated to OC if MB would give him the freedom to change O-line coaches? Probably not but it'd be nice if he did

[bucksfan2]

You know who I want fired? Paul Alexander.

Look at this:

- Nate Livings played over Evan Mathis who is now All-Pro
- Anthony Collins has sat for years and we now know he is starter caliber
- They cut guard Travelle Wharton last summer who then started all year for the 12-4 Panthers.
- Eric Ghiaciuc started at center for three years
- Championed Stacey Andrews, who received a franchise tag one year despite not having a starting position
- Zeitler seemed to regress this year (may have been due to injury)

Now obviously he's not the only one making these decisions, but in Hard Knocks it certainly seemed like the position coaches have heavy input into who stays and goes in their position groups, and I am guessing they also have heavy input into who starts and sits.

They know they have an average quarterback and yet they allow this guy to continuously butcher the offensive line. From what I have read he is close to Mike Brown from way back, so I am sure we'll never see a change, but the offensive line is, and has been, a real problem since about 2005.

The misread on the talent of Mathis alone would be enough for me to fire the guy.

Couple of things on this. Stacy Andrews was signed to a big time contract the season after the Bengals tagged him. IIRC the Bengals were given the highest comp pick in the draft when Andrews signed his deal. I don't think the franchise tag was a bad idea with him.

Wharton never played a down with the Bengals. He went on IR prior to starting a regular season game and then was released.

The AC topic is a good one. It has been noted often that Collins is a very good pass blocker but not a good run blocker. I think you could make the argument that the Bengals should have gone with AC at left tackle and Whit at right tackle and let Andre walk. They decided against doing that and decided to keep Collins for one more season before he hit free agency. I don't know if it was the right or wrong choice, I don't have a problem with it however.

If there is one spot I would critize this current staff it is in the development, or lack there of, at RB. Other teams can churn out decent low round draft picks at RB. The Bengals have struggled to do that for years now. They have gone with the cast off route recently. I don't understand having Cedric Peerman as your 3rd string RB when he possess nothing of note in the backfield.

[Hillsdale87]

You defend your point on Alexander very thoroughly. I wonder if Hue is elevated to OC if MB would give him the freedom to change O-line coaches? Probably not but it'd be nice if he did

The Bengals had one of the highest ranked offensive lines in the NFL this season. They played very poorly against the Chargers, but they were great most of the season.

-Everybody knew Anthony Collins was good, but there didn't seem to be a great fit for him on the line.
-Wharton's issue was injury.
-Mathis was a miss.

Dalton went 3 games at one toward the end of the season where I believe he was only hit once. The offensive line is just fine.

[Kingspoint]

You know who I want fired? Paul Alexander.

Look at this:

- Nate Livings played over Evan Mathis who is now All-Pro
- Anthony Collins has sat for years and we now know he is starter caliber
- They cut guard Travelle Wharton last summer who then started all year for the 12-4 Panthers.
- Eric Ghiaciuc started at center for three years
- Championed Stacey Andrews, who received a franchise tag one year despite not having a starting position
- Zeitler seemed to regress this year (may have been due to injury)

Now obviously he's not the only one making these decisions, but in Hard Knocks it certainly seemed like the position coaches have heavy input into who stays and goes in their position groups, and I am guessing they also have heavy input into who starts and sits.

They know they have an average quarterback and yet they allow this guy to continuously butcher the offensive line. From what I have read he is close to Mike Brown from way back, so I am sure we'll never see a change, but the offensive line is, and has been, a real problem since about 2005.

The misread on the talent of Mathis alone would be enough for me to fire the guy.

Agree with most of this, but with slight differences. Mathis isn't just All-Pro, but has been in a class all by himself as the #1 Guard, Left or Right, in the NFL....until Whitworth was moved to Guard on December 1st.

They chose Livings over Mathis because of size and size alone. Mathis hadn't hit the weight room enough while he had been competing with Livings, and the Bengals' philosophy of "moving the pile" kind of guys has always been more important when determining who to go with. I disagreed whole-heartedly five years ago when Livings was playing over Mathis, but Mathis admitted himself that it wasn't until his last season in Cincinnati that he dedicated himself to the weight room and bulked up so he could do the pushing and not be pushed himself. His technique was head-over-heels better than Livings, but he didn't have Livings' strength. Once he was signed by Philly, he had spent enough time in the weight room that his strength was no longer a weakness while his technique excelled him into the #1 category among all Guards.

Releasing Wharton was a mistake, but at the same time, signing Pollack was a plus. Boling had a good season in 2012, and there was every reason to believe, based on his pre-season and camp, that he would take another step forward and be a Top-10 LG in the league. Wharton was still getting healthy and didn't take over as a starter for Carolina until Week 6, after signing with them, I believe, Week 3 (after the guaranteed contract period had passed). But, once Wharton started for Carolina, he was surpassed at LG by only Mathis in the NFL this season, and the aforementioned Whitworth.

Nobody saw Boling's regression coming. Nobody saw Zeitler's regression coming. Both began the season playing well, but that lasted only two weeks. Cook should have been the weakest link, but Boling and Zeitler really struggled in run-blocking the whole season. There just weren't holes to run through up the middle, and having a RB who ran for only 3 yards at a time didn't help.

The Girlycheck situation alone should have gotten Alexander fired. It greatly affected Palmer's career negatively. He was so adamant that Girlycheck could play Center simply because he was from his old stomping grounds. We have all misjudged players we are too close to, so you have to consider that.

Players never really excelled once they left Paul Alexander except for Mathis. Wharton was solid his entire career in Carolina, never ever having had a bad season, never a good season. Wharton over-achieved this year, and I'm not sure why he excelled so much. Most O-linemen, by a huge percentage, have played their best under Paul Alexander than with another Coach.

When Andre Smith was drafted, it was questionable whether he could play RT. It was highly questionable whether he could pass-block as a RT. Mike Brown gets credit for keeping him motivated through the contracts' negotiations that took place. Paul Alexander should get credit for the rest.

Whitworth has achieved far beyond his draft pick spot. He's played like a Top-5 pick. The same goes for Collins this season. Collins is gone and will get a huge contract with someone, but Alexander, for all of his faults at developing Centers, and questionable work with Guards (why haven't we had Guards pulling until Whitworth moved to Guard five weeks ago...and we're talking for years here in Cincinnati?), has had some tremendous success with Tackles.

The Bengals' O-Line finished the season as the #1 pass-blocking unit in the NFL per PFF. In a league where teams throw the ball 60% of the time, that's the success you look for from an Offensive Line Coach.

Zeitler is merely having a sophomore slump. Perhaps he's worried about his millions he got after his rookie contract. Whatever it is, he'll have six months to rededicate himself and come back to justify his 1st Round pick. I trust in Tobin. Unlike most people, I feel that Marvin Lewis is an extremely poor evaluator of football talent...on Offense, on Defense, or on Special Teams'. I don't think he should be moved to G.M. for that reason. I'd rather have the team of Tobin, Zimmer and Mike Brown making the decisions. Since the scout team went from two to five with Tobin at the top, we have had excellent drafts. It's not a coincidence. It has nothing to do with Marvin Lewis.

I've had my doubts about Paul Alexander, but I would keep him.

Mike Brown has made attempts to improve the talent at Center twice. I believe he recognizes the problem. The results have been poor. Look at the drafting of Centers over the last ten seasons by the Bengals (first six rounds only, as there's still good Centers available in the 6th Round, but by the 7th they are gone...case in point...John Sullivan (2008), whom the Bengals should have snagged when the need and the chance were there):

2009....Early 4th Round, Johnathan Luigs
2005....Early 4th Round, Eric Ghiaciuc

Many quality Free Agent Centers have been available through the last ten seasons (Baltimore grabbed Birk and he led their line to a Super Bowl) and Mike Brown has passed on all of them. If you're not going to go that route, then you better nail it in the draft. You can't just plug in a Guard at Center.

An inexperienced Quarterback needs a good Center. Everyone knows about Dalton's improved throwing when he has a chance to step into the throw. He didn't get that with Cook last season, and with Boling and Zeitler struggling this year, the interior of the pocket wasn't working for Dalton. It's a poor excuse when Dalton, for the season, was given the best pass-protection of any QB in the NFL, but it's still a valid excuse. Dalton is what he is. Set things up perfectly for him, and he's capable of producing enough Offense to win a Super Bowl.

The problem with the combination of Mike Brown and Paul Alexander is that Alexander put all his eggs in one basket at Center with a franchise Quarterback in Palmer who didn't trust his Center. Dalton shows the same distrust in Cook that Palmer showed in both Cook and Ghiaciuc.

The undrafted Robinson showed promise in 2012, but was terrible this off-season and regular season. Their 2013 7th Round pick, T.J. Johnson, made the practice squad. See what happens next year with him.

Sometimes, the "loyalty" gets in the way around Bengaldom. The Center position is the biggest example. Kenny Anderson as the QB Coach was another one. There's a long list.

Should Paul Alexander be replaced? There are a lot of reasons to say yes and a lot of reasons to say no. I would like to leave that decision up to the new Head Coach, provided Mike Brown doesn't go the route of raw youth, similar to the Jay Gruden signing.

[Kingspoint]

Wharton never played a down with the Bengals. He went on IR prior to starting a regular season game and then was released.



Wharton was brought back in for repeated physicals to evaluate his recovery. They looked at him periodically throughout the off-season and up through the start of the season. They wanted him to play for them, but he wasn't healing fast enough for them to make that decision.

[Kingspoint]

I don't get the infatuation with Gruden. He's done an okay job here but I certainly won't be heartbroken if he left.

If he takes the Redskins' job, Jackson would immediately take over and be an upgrade for us at the O.C. position, Orson Charles fiasco aside.

[Redhook]

That was not a bad throw. It wasn't perfect, but it was really good. Dalton was maybe off by a yard on a 50 yard pass - that is fine. The defender did not touch the pass. Green just flat out dropped it. He made a couple great catches in that game, but it's unfortunate that he didn't come through on that one.

Watch it again. The safety knocked it out of his hands immediately after he touched it. You can see it from the 2nd angle. AJ didn't drop the ball. It was knocked out of his hands and it was due to the ball getting there late.

[Kingspoint]

Watch it again. The safety knocked it out of his hands immediately after he touched it. You can see it from the 2nd angle. AJ didn't drop the ball. It was knocked out of his hands and it was due to the ball getting there late.

Green was, and should be, faulted for not catching the ball at a higher point, eliminating any possibility for the defender to knock it out.

[WVRed]

A fan base that's satisfied with Lewis scares me.

I'm not satisfied with Lewis as a coach. I'd rather have him remain with the team in a front office capacity for the reason of what the Bengals were like before Marvin took over. The guy knows talent, just has a problem coaching it.

The only problem I would have with replacing Marvin is that it likely would be Mike Zimmer or Jay Gruden, which is basically the equivalent of the Reds hiring Bryan Price. This team needs outside the organization thinking from the head coaching spot and the job would likely be filled from within.


Looking at this the NEXT DAY.... and getting caught up on this thread .... I am very sympathetic Bengal fans (fellow Ohioans) when I say "I feel your pain". Believe me, I wanted the Bengals to win!

But to those that want to dump Dalton, can we step back from the ledge for just a minute for some contemplation? I say this not so much as a Bengal follower (which I am), or a fellow Ohioan, but more as a Brown's fan. So once again, endure a long-winded response from GAC....

Browns fans have seen more QBs shuffle in and out of their organization, since they came back into the league, then frantic women with shopping carts trying to fight their way into Walmart on Black Friday. We've had 19 starting QBs since 1999. We were so desperate we actually signed Jake Delhomme!! Think about that! We have to go back 30 years (Bernie Kosar) to find a Brown's QB that came close to any semblance in what you have now (or even Carson Palmer for that matter!). And even then it's debatable as to how good Kosar really was. The guy ran like a three-legged dog chasing a mail truck. But that's how far we have to go back.

Yeah, it's true that Dalton is 0-3 in post-season games. He hasn't looked good. No denying. But lets look a little more in-depth at it....

Let's set the stage by first looking at 2010 (pre-Dalton), when the Bengals finished 4-12 (last in the AFC North). The following year you hand the job to a ROOKIE QB from Texas Christian. He didn't have a bad year, and was instrumental in the team's turn-around to a 9-7 record and WC berth.

But you then traveled to Houston to face a very formidable Texan team whose defense was probably the best in the NFL. And their defense shutdown every aspect of your offense (running, passing), and smothered your rookie QB. Your offensive line was manhandled/outmatched that day. You were underdogs going into that game, and I'm certainly not going to put that loss entirely on a rookie QB with no post-season experience.

Last year (2012) is pretty much the same scenario. The Bengals improved to 10-6, won the division ... Andy get any credit for that? ...but in the post-season you were once again underdogs facing a better 12-4 Texan team (with the return of Schaub at QB), and again one of the NFL's best defenses. It was a close game, but once again your offense hit a wall. The entire blame for the loss can't be laid at the feet of Dalton. Not when one look's at the opponent's strengths.

Yeah, this year is different. You guys were favored, went 8-0 at home, and there is no reason (excuse) for losing this one. And I'm certainly not going to make excuses for Dalton's performance. But consider this too ....

The Charger's defense played out their *****, really fired up. Now whether that was due to the coaching staff (I don't know). Your offensive line was terrible. Dalton made some bad decisions with the ball in the second half no doubt. He tries to force the issue; but he was also under constant pressure (scrambling).

And while there may be no excuse for Dalton's turnovers, Benard's fumble - IMO, he shouldn't have allowed it to be stripped. Protect the ball! - cost the Bengals 7 pts. And AJ had a terrible game, and IMO should have caught that deep pass which cost you more points.

But I will say this - and it caught my attention midway through the 3rd quarter when it was still a game - they showed the Bengal's bench, and the players all had this deflated "we're already beat" look on their faces. I thought -"Where is the leadership, someone to be firing these guys up with the "Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor! speech. It was like your bench was sulking when you were still in it.

In the regular season you have a QB who through games 1-15 posted a 91.0 passer rating (fourth in AFC and 10th in NFL), 7th in the NFL in passing yards (4296), 3rd in TDs (33), and 8th in Completions (363). Yeah, the downside was he was 5th in INTs (20). But he wasn't Eli!

But if you want to dump him, we'll trade you QBs Brandon "We Done" and Jason Campbell. Ah heck, I'm in a generous mood... I'll also throw in Greg Little. ;)

You can be angry right now. It's justified. But don't be so quick just yet to give up on Andy.

IMO, I'd change your head coach ... or promote him to the FO as some suggest ... before I'd dump your QB. There is something about Marvin Lewis, when it comes to motivating his players, getting them ready for critical games, where he shows lack.

Looking even more in depth:

The 2011 Texans started a FIFTH rounder late in the season at quarterback because they had lost their starting QB to injury. Although the Bengals had a stroke of luck in even making the playoffs, they came into that game with as good a chance as any.

The 2012 Texans started the season fairly hot, similar to the Chiefs this year but started losing games late in the season and were pretty vulnerable. I was actually pretty excited when I saw the Bengals would be playing the Texans because I thought the Bengals could pull off the upset. Didn't happen, but the Bengals had a shot.

Three QB's out of the first round I'd like to see the Bengals look at:

2nd round: AJ McCarron, Tajh Boyd
3rd round: Zach Mettenberger

Maybe Mark Sanchez in free agency.

[traderumor]

A fan base that's satisfied with Lewis scares me.I wasn't aware that "MWM" was an acronym for "fan base." Learn something new every day 'round here.

[MWM]

What does it mean to not be "satisfied" as a fan? And what if I'm not "satisfied? What exactly is that going to accomplish? I don't get this type of thing that gets posted on these kinds of forums. It's like if I don't want to clean house and demand nothing short of championships, then I somehow lack standards or "fan ambition"..... that those who aren't satisfied are somehow more virtuous or motivated than I am.

Truth is, I didn't choose who I root for. Those teams chose me. I've never arbitrarily chosen a team to follow. They're all pretty much my hometown teams or where I went to school. Since I was born, and that's coming increasingly close to 40 years ago, of all the teams I follow there have been exactly 2 championships.... the Reds in 1990 and the Buckeyes in 2002. So if I am supposed to be satisfied only with championships, following sports has been a massive waste of time for me in my life.

So what exactly am I supposed to do with my lack of "satisfaction"? Go root for another team who will be more likely to win championships? I don't think I could do that even if I wanted to. I'd love to see the Bengals win the Super Bowl, but I also know that this was a fun season and I enjoyed watching them all year. I got almost no enjoyment out of early 90s - mid-2000s teams. It wasn't just the losing, but we were watching a team that just didn't seem to care and had accepted that they were going to be losers. Yes, the current version may not be ready to be the New England Patriots, but they aren't even in the same stratosphere as the old Bengals.

And I also don't buy into the idea that they aren't capable of winning in the playoffs under Lewis. I did think this with Dusty Baker, but I believe Lewis is a different animal. He's already shown that he's capable of evolving as a coach and as naive as this may sound to some, I think he's getting better and will eventually get over the hump. I have no proof of this as it's simply my take from watching over the years. I have no interest in going back to the way it used to be and I'm afraid that's exactly what would happen if Lewis were gone.

I get frustrated and disappointed when my teams are knocked out of the playoffs, especially when they really should win like this year's Bengals and the 2012 Reds. But I wouldn't trade the 2012 Reds season. It was a fun team to watch and I enjoyed those 6 months. I can say the same for the 2013 Bengals. I guess that makes me satisfied too easily for some, but at the end of the day we sit on the sidelines, on our couches, or on an internet forum typing. It's not like we are actually involved in the competition, so why would even contemplate how satisfied I should or shouldn't be. There's nothing I can do about it, so why waste emotional energy on worrying about it.

[RiverRat13]

I don't pretend to be a draft guru, but I think Zach Mettenberger would make a lot of sense for the Bengals. He's supposedly a first round talent that will fall to the 3rd due to his torn ACL. And think what you may about Dalton, the Bengals certainly don't NEED a QB to be ready Day 1 next year. So if they can snag Mettenberger, you give him a year to learn the system and get healthy. And if Dalton ends up turning the corner, all you did was spend a 3rd rounder for a solid backup.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

And I also don't buy into the idea that they aren't capable of winning in the playoffs under Lewis. I did think this with Dusty Baker, but I believe Lewis is a different animal. He's already shown that he's capable of evolving as a coach and as naive as this may sound to some, I think he's getting better and will eventually get over the hump. I have no proof of this as it's simply my take from watching over the years. I have no interest in going back to the way it used to be and I'm afraid that's exactly what would happen if Lewis were gone.

I agree with much of what you have posted except this. I don't think Marvin can get this franchise over the hump. I think it's almost psychological now and the team's performance in big games (especially playoffs) is a reflection of that. They gag.

I would look to move him into the front office and promote Zimmer to head coach. Hue can be the OC (bye Jay) and a QB needs to be drafted early to compete with and possibly take over for Dalton.

[MWM]

I would look to move him into the front office and promote Zimmer to head coach. Hue can be the OC (bye Jay) and a QB needs to be drafted early to compete with and possibly take over for Dalton.

I'd love this move as well. I'm not saying Lewis is a great coach and he's absolutely the guy I'd want. I think Zimmer would be great and I think Marvin would be even better in the front office.

But I'm also not sold that it will never happen with him. I think managing the psychology of the team is one of the things he's done better. They won several games this year they would have lost in the past without doubt. They won by large margins consistently the second half of the season. They took care of business when everyone was afraid they'd turn into pumpkins like everyone else thought they would (like week 16 against the Vikings when they came out and dominated the week after the Vikes blew out the eagles and the Ravens pulled to within striking distance).

From my view this was a different team this year during the season, and it's the first time I've said that. They had a different culture, mentality, whatever you want to call it. They laid an egg in the second half of the playoff game, but maybe next year is the year they take that step forward in the playoffs. I think they were out-coached in the second half by McCoy, who is likely to be one of the great coaches in the NFL over the next decade. I don't think it was mental and they played a good first half. I think Gruden failed in his game planning and play calling in the 2nd half and the SD offense made some adjustments that completely stopped any Bengal pass rush and opened running holes. I think it Xs and Os mostly.

I am just terrified of the thought of Brown going out trying to find another coach. I'm not in love with Lewis and think there's a possibility they've gone as far as they're going to go with him, but I don't think that's in stone yet. I saw enough this year to make me think Lewis is growing as a HC.

[Sea Ray]

I don't pretend to be a draft guru, but I think Zach Mettenberger would make a lot of sense for the Bengals. He's supposedly a first round talent that will fall to the 3rd due to his torn ACL. And think what you may about Dalton, the Bengals certainly don't NEED a QB to be ready Day 1 next year. So if they can snag Mettenberger, you give him a year to learn the system and get healthy. And if Dalton ends up turning the corner, all you did was spend a 3rd rounder for a solid backup.

I doubt he'll be around when the Bengals draft in the 2nd rd let alone the 3rd. We'll see in May

[bucksfan2]

I don't pretend to be a draft guru, but I think Zach Mettenberger would make a lot of sense for the Bengals. He's supposedly a first round talent that will fall to the 3rd due to his torn ACL. And think what you may about Dalton, the Bengals certainly don't NEED a QB to be ready Day 1 next year. So if they can snag Mettenberger, you give him a year to learn the system and get healthy. And if Dalton ends up turning the corner, all you did was spend a 3rd rounder for a solid backup.

I don't know, it seems like guys like Mettenberger, are around in every draft. Us fans love their names, think they can be good NFL QB's but they end up doing nothing. Is Mettenberger any different than the likes of Landry Jones, Greg McElroy, Tyler Wilson, etc.

I wouldn't mind the Bengals spending a draft pick on a developmental type QB, but don't want to see them go that direction in the first 3 or so rounds.

[traderumor]

What does it mean to not be "satisfied" as a fan? And what if I'm not "satisfied? What exactly is that going to accomplish? I don't get this type of thing that gets posted on these kinds of forums. It's like if I don't want to clean house and demand nothing short of championships, then I somehow lack standards or "fan ambition"..... that those who aren't satisfied are somehow more virtuous or motivated than I am.

I agree, which is why I made my sarcastic remark. Broad generalizations just really don't work on fan boards. Every loss, no matter how disappointing, does not require a lynch mob to correct the problem. Someone's head does not have to roll. Of course, the national media are having a heydey making fun of whodey, but then listening to those geniuses says more about the listener than anything. I responded to a few Browns fans with a remark about remembering when all I had as a fan of my team was poking fun at rivals when they lost in the playoffs and how I'm glad my team is not the league laughingstock anymore.

I totally get that an 0-5 playoff record is bad. But it sure does beg a lot of questions about a franchise with 5 playoff appearances on its resume as to where to go from here to be a legitimate championship contender. What changes bring that about? You could get a hundred answers to that one, but the easy targets are changing the QB or the head coach because they are chokers. So that's what the "dissatisfied" members of the "fan base" do, right?

Which I guess answers that question. Why so much railing against Dalton and Lewis? Low hanging fruit is easy pickings. I'm guessing the franchise needs to climb the ladder a little bit beyond that to get at some real solutions.

[RiverRat13]

I don't know, it seems like guys like Mettenberger, are around in every draft. Us fans love their names, think they can be good NFL QB's but they end up doing nothing. Is Mettenberger any different than the likes of Landry Jones, Greg McElroy, Tyler Wilson, etc.

I wouldn't mind the Bengals spending a draft pick on a developmental type QB, but don't want to see them go that direction in the first 3 or so rounds.

I really don't know how good Mettenberger is because I don't watch a ton of football outside of OSU or the occasional primetime game. But the other guys you mentioned never had "first round talent" floated around like he does.

[Hoosier Red]

I agree, which is why I made my sarcastic remark. Broad generalizations just really don't work on fan boards. Every loss, no matter how disappointing, does not require a lynch mob to correct the problem. Someone's head does not have to roll. Of course, the national media are having a heydey making fun of whodey, but then listening to those geniuses says more about the listener than anything. I responded to a few Browns fans with a remark about remembering when all I had as a fan of my team was poking fun at rivals when they lost in the playoffs and how I'm glad my team is not the league laughingstock anymore.

I totally get that an 0-5 playoff record is bad. But it sure does beg a lot of questions about a franchise with 5 playoff appearances on its resume as to where to go from here to be a legitimate championship contender. What changes bring that about? You could get a hundred answers to that one, but the easy targets are changing the QB or the head coach because they are chokers. So that's what the "dissatisfied" members of the "fan base" do, right?

Which I guess answers that question. Why so much railing against Dalton and Lewis? Low hanging fruit is easy pickings. I'm guessing the franchise needs to climb the ladder a little bit beyond that to get at some real solutions.


I'd say to take the 0-5 record in it's entirety is like comparing the Bengals record all time vs an NFC team. You're just having to pull in so many games from such a long time ago, that it's hard to consider them relevant.

I feel the same way about considering Marvin's 90-90-1 overall record. What's more relevant to evaluating him, his overall record or the record the last three years where he's improved the win total 3 consecutive years.

This isn't to say that there's no good arguments for moving on from Marvin, but I just don't find the overall record or even overall playoff record all that useful in evaluating him.

[Roy Tucker]

Cause I try and I try and I try and I try
I can't go no, I can't get no

[gonelong]

If someone other than the Brown family was picking Marvin's replacement ... I'd say go ahead.

GL

[Redsfaithful]

Of course, the national media are having a heydey making fun of whodey

I'm sure some are, but you know I've actually been shocked at how respectful a lot of media has been. Articles like this that talk about how well stocked in talent the team is:

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/88023/how-could-the-bengals-move-on-from-andy-dalton

I think Mike Brown will stay loyal to everyone involved here, Dalton included, so as a fan I really just have to hope they hit on some draft picks again this year and get it done next year.

All the fire Marvin talk is everyone's right as a fan, but it's howling into the wind as far as ever getting the desired result.

Marvin Lewis is a very good coach. 3 of 5 playoff games I think the Bengals were the inferior team (counting 2005 since they lost Henry and Palmer immediately.) The Jets and this year ... I don't know, I guess stuff happens.

All you heard about with the Patriots this year was the amount of talent they lost to injury, but I think the Bengals lost more. You can't count on perfect health obviously, it's the NFL, but it's amazing how well they did losing Atkins and Hall. Anchors of the defense and Zim still got them to #3 overall.

I honestly think this year comes down to injuries, and either Gruden not doing a good enough job or Dalton simply not being good enough. Not being in the locker room or watching coaches film I really don't know which it is.

Losing that game in Miami certainly hurt also. Who knows how the team reacts psychologically after a bye week? And another week of rest and healing for Newman and the offensive line?

[MWM]

and either Gruden not doing a good enough job or Dalton simply not being good enough.

This is what I can't figure. It's one or the other, but I don't think the answer is clear.

[Kingspoint]

This is what I can't figure. It's one or the other, but I don't think the answer is clear.

It's obviously both.

[Redsfaithful]

This is what I can't figure. It's one or the other, but I don't think the answer is clear.

It's so bizarre how effortless it looks some weeks with Dalton spreading the ball around to 7-8 guys, and then other weeks they can barely get a pass off.

It makes me wonder if it's the coordinator, but maybe it's just that Dalton is only good enough to beat up the lesser defenses. I know this year he was murder on defenses ranked 15 and below. Probably not good enough if he can't do it against better teams.

[Sea Ray]

It's so bizarre how effortless it looks some weeks with Dalton spreading the ball around to 7-8 guys, and then other weeks they can barely get a pass off.

It makes me wonder if it's the coordinator, but maybe it's just that Dalton is only good enough to beat up the lesser defenses. I know this year he was murder on defenses ranked 15 and below. Probably not good enough if he can't do it against better teams.

This year he beat a lot of good teams. In fact he beat playoff teams Indy, SD, NE and GB. I don't think we can expect a better regular season resume than that

[Hillsdale87]

This year he beat a lot of good teams. In fact he beat playoff teams Indy, SD, NE and GB. I don't think we can expect a better regular season resume than that

Those teams aren't good because of their defenses. NE is the best of that group, but Dalton didn't exactly light it up in that game. SD and GB were bottom 10 pass defenses. Indy's number look ok, but that is largely based on their horrible division. Alex Smith showed how good that pass D is last week

[Hillsdale87]

I don't pretend to be a draft guru, but I think Zach Mettenberger would make a lot of sense for the Bengals. He's supposedly a first round talent that will fall to the 3rd due to his torn ACL. And think what you may about Dalton, the Bengals certainly don't NEED a QB to be ready Day 1 next year. So if they can snag Mettenberger, you give him a year to learn the system and get healthy. And if Dalton ends up turning the corner, all you did was spend a 3rd rounder for a solid backup.

Mettenberger may not last to the third round, but I think he'd probably still be there in the 2nd. I think he'd be a great risk for the Bengals to take. There aren't any glaring needs for the Bengals, so they can afford to take a risk, even with a 2nd round pick like they did last year with Margus Hunt. He already runs a pro-style offense, and has a very strong, accurate arm.

Even if Dalton turns the corner, a healthy Mettenberger becomes a great trade chip.

[Yachtzee]

I think you have to break up the Marvin Lewis tenure into two eras. The first is the pre-lockout, Lewis extension era. In that period, Lewis was saddled with some coaches hired by Mike Brown (notably Bob Bratkowski) and Mike Brown's heavy involvement in player acquisition. It was plagued by poor attitudes of holdover players and bringing in new players of questionable character. Fans were constantly complaining that Mike Brown was hampering the team and holding Lewis back. With the last losing record and the looming lockout, I think Marvin laid it on the line, so Brown got rid of Bratkowski and deferred to Lewis and his staff on player acquisitions. Since then they've brought in players who play well on the field but are also good character guys in the locker room. Although they still take chances on guys with histories of off the field issues, they don't keep them around if they don't buy into the program. The times of keeping an Ochocinco or bringing in T.O. or Odell Thurman seem to be over. In this second era, we've seen continuous improvement over previous seasons and three straight playoff appearances. Granted they've lost those three, but they've still improved.

[MWM]

I think you have to break up the Marvin Lewis tenure into two eras. The first is the pre-lockout, Lewis extension era. In that period, Lewis was saddled with some coaches hired by Mike Brown (notably Bob Bratkowski) and Mike Brown's heavy involvement in player acquisition. It was plagued by poor attitudes of holdover players and bringing in new players of questionable character. Fans were constantly complaining that Mike Brown was hampering the team and holding Lewis back. With the last losing record and the looming lockout, I think Marvin laid it on the line, so Brown got rid of Bratkowski and deferred to Lewis and his staff on player acquisitions. Since then they've brought in players who play well on the field but are also good character guys in the locker room. Although they still take chances on guys with histories of off the field issues, they don't keep them around if they don't buy into the program. The times of keeping an Ochocinco or bringing in T.O. or Odell Thurman seem to be over. In this second era, we've seen continuous improvement over previous seasons and three straight playoff appearances. Granted they've lost those three, but they've still improved.

Great post and excellent observation. Hadn't thought about that but I think you're right.

[RiverRat13]

Without looking, I would have agreed with the sentiment that Dalton dominates bad defenses and struggles against good ones. But taking a look at his game log, I found a different story. My methodology is a bit mixed as I’m using Football Outsiders’ Defensive DVOA to rate the Bengals opponents and then QBR to rate Dalton’s performance. I also threw in passer rating even though I (and its creator) think it is a poor way to evaluate an individual game. The number in parenthesis is the opposition’s DVOA, the next number is Dalton’s QBR for that particular game and the final number was his passer rating.


At Chicago (25th) 91.8 97.2
Pitt (20th) 39.5 81.7
GB (31st) 38.8 105.5
At Cleveland (24th) 29.7 58.2
NE (21st) 53.0 81.1
AT Buffalo (4th) 62.0 105.9
At Detroit (14th) 92.8 135.9
NYJ (11th) 98.9 125.7
At Miami (17th) 13.5 55.4
AT Baltimore (7th) 17.3 52.3
Cleveland (24th) 3.7 62.7
At San Diego (32nd) 44.4 83.6
Indy (16th) 89.2 120.5
At Pitt (20th) 47.2 86.4
Minn (27th) 92.0 136.5
Baltimore (7th) 56.5 62.2


Dalton’s season QBR was 55.8, which ranked 17th in the league. He’s pretty much the definition of a league average QB. He had eight games with a QBR below 50, and those came against the 20th, 31st, 24th, 17th, 7th, 24th, 32nd and 20th ranked defenses according to DVOA. He had six games with a QBR over 60, coming against the 25th, 4th, 14th, 11th, 16th, and 27th ranked defenses according to DVOA. His two games in the 50s (near his average) were against the 21st and 7th ranked defenses.

[WVRed]

Two other rookie QB's I'd consider are AJ McCarron and Tajh Boyd. Outside of the last two games of his career, McCarron is a proven winner and while he has some mechanical flaws, could ride the pine and be groomed to replace Dalton, or become a possible trade commodity.

Boyd on the other hand gives you athleticism from the QB position and someone who the Bengals could use as a read-option type QB. He could be used right away in certain packages and would be another weapon for the offense.

[Benihana]

I think you have to break up the Marvin Lewis tenure into two eras. The first is the pre-lockout, Lewis extension era. In that period, Lewis was saddled with some coaches hired by Mike Brown (notably Bob Bratkowski) and Mike Brown's heavy involvement in player acquisition. It was plagued by poor attitudes of holdover players and bringing in new players of questionable character. Fans were constantly complaining that Mike Brown was hampering the team and holding Lewis back. With the last losing record and the looming lockout, I think Marvin laid it on the line, so Brown got rid of Bratkowski and deferred to Lewis and his staff on player acquisitions. Since then they've brought in players who play well on the field but are also good character guys in the locker room. Although they still take chances on guys with histories of off the field issues, they don't keep them around if they don't buy into the program. The times of keeping an Ochocinco or bringing in T.O. or Odell Thurman seem to be over. In this second era, we've seen continuous improvement over previous seasons and three straight playoff appearances. Granted they've lost those three, but they've still improved.

That's the first fair point you've made in this thread in defending Marvin. But I still agree with Stephen A. Smith (who I'm generally not a fan of):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BROO_2B4mo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D_BROO_2B4mo&app=desktop

[Kingspoint]

Instead of looking at Dalton when facing "bad" defenses and when facing "good" defenses, look at him when facing "pressure".

That's the Jeckyl and Hyde of Dalton.

While QB's like Rivers, Ryan, Foles, Brady (not this year as his years have finally caught up to him), Peyton, Brees, Newton, Wilson, Rogers and Roethlisberger all do well when facing pressure, Dalton folds like a tent whenever pressure, perceived or real, comes his way.

Dalton made strides his third season over his second and even with a new O.C., should improve again in his 4th season. He has proven himself after this third season to be a Top-10 QB when not facing pressure. Give Dalton time to throw and don't let him believe there is pressure and he will perform admirably and lead the Offense to TD's. Because he's proven this, you have to keep rolling the dice on him that he'll develop how to handle pressure. Two more seasons of trying and then I'd cut him loose if he doesn't by then. He's not like Josh Freeman who can play poorly when there's no pressure. But, because three years have passed, and Dalton came in as a 24-year old when he began in September of 2011, he doesn't have the benefit of any more maturing years physically ahead of him. He's not a 24-year old trying to have poise. He'll be 27 in September, an ample age to be expected to have poise....and maintain it. It's not enough to "occasionally" have poise under pressure. You have to be able to be counted on during the playoffs when the pressure is at it's greatest. It's not a coincidence that it's when Dalton has always been his worst. He folds like a tent. He sucked the life out of the football team the second half of the Chargers game with his play. He was soley responsible for the loss. It's the QB's responsibility to come through in a game like that. Halfway decent play by Dalton and they have a chance to win.

The next step everyone is waiting for on Dalton is his ability not only "not to fold like a tent under pressure", but to actually perform decently when facing pressure. He hasn't taken that next step that Alex Smith has taken for a while now, to where he can at least perform decently under pressure. Dalton still looks like a deer in headlights whenever he perceives pressure.

Dalton hasn't even become as good as Ryan Fitzpatrick, Chad Henne, or an aged Carson Palmer, yet. These three QB's are far superior to Dalton when facing pressure. Dalton's only succeeded in Cincinnati because of an exceptional pass-blocking unit, A.J. Green, his strength of throwing accurately when there's no pressure, and a Top-10 Defense. (He's better than Kitna) A higher percentage of his passing yards come after the catch compared to the other QB's in the NFL. Hawkins, Gio, Sanu and Gresham, all get better YAC than other Receivers who play their positions. A.J. Green simply has a remarkably large catch radius.

It's Dalton in 2014. There is no other choice. He will improve in many areas (there are many for him to work on). The most important will be his poise. He has shown very little poise as an NFL QB. It's happened a few times, and it happened twice this season, but it happens so few times, that he has yet to get past the level of "NFL-backup" when it comes to poise.

There are no excuses for a lack of poise. Poise comes through regardless of circumstances. It's what poise is. When facing difficulties, one who has poise, doesn't panic. In three years (and he was 24 when he began his Bengal career, so he's old for a 3-yr QB), he has yet to show poise. Poise is the most difficult thing to develop in an NFL QB. It's the difference between a playoff-winning QB and one who loses.

Here's to a 27-year old Dalton developing some poise for the 2014 season! It's not likely to happen, but it's not an unreasonable expectation either.

QB PRESSURE 2013

6735


QB PRESSURE PLAYOFFS

6736

[GAC]

Those teams aren't good because of their defenses. NE is the best of that group, but Dalton didn't exactly light it up in that game. SD and GB were bottom 10 pass defenses. Indy's number look ok, but that is largely based on their horrible division. Alex Smith showed how good that pass D is last week

And I mentioned this earlier in the discussion (before the play-offs began).

The Bengal's defense is top notch. And their offense was no slouch in the regular season either.

When I looked at the teams the Bengals would potentially face, their opponent's defenses (especially pass D) was pretty bottom tier.

But what did SD's defensive coordinator do differently, if anything, in his approach to the game last week that allowed them to basically run right through your offensive line, achieve penetration at such a success, and have Dalton running for his life?

I'm sure they were watching game films, and saw that when the Bengals lost, or struggled, the key is putting some level of pressure on Dalton, and forcing him to make bad decisions.

Also .... and someone mentioned this on here earlier .... that an SD player, after the game, tweeted that they saw nothing different, no new wrinkles, from the Bengal's offense in that game.

[Kingspoint]

But what did SD's defensive coordinator do differently, if anything, in his approach to the game last week that allowed them to basically run right through your offensive line, achieve penetration at such a success, and have Dalton running for his life?

I'm sure they were watching game films, and saw that when the Bengals lost, or struggled, the key is putting some level of pressure on Dalton, and forcing him to make bad decisions.

Also .... and someone mentioned this on here earlier .... that an SD player, after the game, tweeted that they saw nothing different, no new wrinkles, from the Bengal's offense in that game. That's the entire game, especially the second half, in a nutshell.

[Sea Ray]

Those teams aren't good because of their defenses. NE is the best of that group, but Dalton didn't exactly light it up in that game. SD and GB were bottom 10 pass defenses. Indy's number look ok, but that is largely based on their horrible division. Alex Smith showed how good that pass D is last week

You make my point. Our season did not end because AD faced a top 15 defense.

[Sea Ray]

Mettenberger may not last to the third round, but I think he'd probably still be there in the 2nd. I think he'd be a great risk for the Bengals to take. There aren't any glaring needs for the Bengals, so they can afford to take a risk, even with a 2nd round pick like they did last year with Margus Hunt. He already runs a pro-style offense, and has a very strong, accurate arm.

Even if Dalton turns the corner, a healthy Mettenberger becomes a great trade chip.

I think Mettenberger would be a great option. I just disagree that he'll still be there late in the 2nd. If I'm wrong, I'd be fine grabbing him there. I just think there are too many NFL teams with QB needs far greater than ours for him to last that long. We'll see in a few months whose tea leaves are more accurate

[Sea Ray]

Instead of looking at Dalton when facing "bad" defenses and when facing "good" defenses, look at him when facing "pressure".

That's the Jeckyl and Hyde of Dalton.

While QB's like Rivers, Ryan, Foles, Brady (not this year as his years have finally caught up to him), Peyton, Brees, Newton, Wilson, Rogers and Roethlisberger all do well when facing pressure, Dalton folds like a tent whenever pressure, perceived or real, comes his way.

Dalton made strides his third season over his second and even with a new O.C., should improve again in his 4th season. He has proven himself after this third season to be a Top-10 QB when not facing pressure. Give Dalton time to throw and don't let him believe there is pressure and he will perform admirably and lead the Offense to TD's. Because he's proven this, you have to keep rolling the dice on him that he'll develop how to handle pressure. Two more seasons of trying and then I'd cut him loose if he doesn't by then. He's not like Josh Freeman who can play poorly when there's no pressure. But, because three years have passed, and Dalton came in as a 24-year old when he began in September of 2011, he doesn't have the benefit of any more maturing years physically ahead of him. He's not a 24-year old trying to have poise. He'll be 27 in September, an ample age to be expected to have poise....and maintain it. It's not enough to "occasionally" have poise under pressure. You have to be able to be counted on during the playoffs when the pressure is at it's greatest. It's not a coincidence that it's when Dalton has always been his worst. He folds like a tent. He sucked the life out of the football team the second half of the Chargers game with his play. He was soley responsible for the loss. It's the QB's responsibility to come through in a game like that. Halfway decent play by Dalton and they have a chance to win.

The next step everyone is waiting for on Dalton is his ability not only "not to fold like a tent under pressure", but to actually perform decently when facing pressure. He hasn't taken that next step that Alex Smith has taken for a while now, to where he can at least perform decently under pressure. Dalton still looks like a deer in headlights whenever he perceives pressure.

Dalton hasn't even become as good as Ryan Fitzpatrick, Chad Henne, or an aged Carson Palmer, yet. These three QB's are far superior to Dalton when facing pressure. Dalton's only succeeded in Cincinnati because of an exceptional pass-blocking unit, A.J. Green, his strength of throwing accurately when there's no pressure, and a Top-10 Defense. (He's better than Kitna) A higher percentage of his passing yards come after the catch compared to the other QB's in the NFL. Hawkins, Gio, Sanu and Gresham, all get better YAC than other Receivers who play their positions. A.J. Green simply has a remarkably large catch radius.

It's Dalton in 2014. There is no other choice. He will improve in many areas (there are many for him to work on). The most important will be his poise. He has shown very little poise as an NFL QB. It's happened a few times, and it happened twice this season, but it happens so few times, that he has yet to get past the level of "NFL-backup" when it comes to poise.

There are no excuses for a lack of poise. Poise comes through regardless of circumstances. It's what poise is. When facing difficulties, one who has poise, doesn't panic. In three years (and he was 24 when he began his Bengal career, so he's old for a 3-yr QB), he has yet to show poise. Poise is the most difficult thing to develop in an NFL QB. It's the difference between a playoff-winning QB and one who loses.

Here's to a 27-year old Dalton developing some poise for the 2014 season! It's not likely to happen, but it's not an unreasonable expectation either.

QB PRESSURE 2013

6735


QB PRESSURE PLAYOFFS

6736

It's more than just poise. We've seen him throw "jump ball" INTs on 1st and 10. We saw that happen twice in the home game vs Baltimore. We've also seen him throw deep balls to AJ where there's a safety sitting deeper than Green. These are all bad judgements and throws that ought not be made. For Andy to be successful he needs to be more of a game manager (like Alex Smith) and cut down on the turnovers. I'd be fine with him getting intercepted if it's 3rd and long and he's under pressure but these are examples of him making unforced errors

[Sea Ray]

And I mentioned this earlier in the discussion (before the play-offs began).

The Bengal's defense is top notch. And their offense was no slouch in the regular season either.

When I looked at the teams the Bengals would potentially face, their opponent's defenses (especially pass D) was pretty bottom tier.

But what did SD's defensive coordinator do differently, if anything, in his approach to the game last week that allowed them to basically run right through your offensive line, achieve penetration at such a success, and have Dalton running for his life?

I'm sure they were watching game films, and saw that when the Bengals lost, or struggled, the key is putting some level of pressure on Dalton, and forcing him to make bad decisions.

Also .... and someone mentioned this on here earlier .... that an SD player, after the game, tweeted that they saw nothing different, no new wrinkles, from the Bengal's offense in that game.

What you may have missed were all the injuries on the Bengals O-line. There were very few healthy bodies after the Ravens game. Dave Lapham was talking about the Ravens game and both Whit and Collins were hurt but we didn't have another OT so Alexander told them that they'd have to gut it out and alternate series cause he had to have someone there. Cook was also hurt

[Caveman Techie]

Interesting tidbit here, in the entire history of the NFL there have been only three coaches to coach 11 years or more with the same team without a playoff win. One of the coaches though had several championship trophies for their team and also owned the team, George Halas.

One of the coaches did not finish their 11th year, Jim Mora with the New Orleans Saints.

The third coach is of course Marvin Lewis with our very own Cincinnati Bengals.

[Hillsdale87]

I think Mettenberger would be a great option. I just disagree that he'll still be there late in the 2nd. If I'm wrong, I'd be fine grabbing him there. I just think there are too many NFL teams with QB needs far greater than ours for him to last that long. We'll see in a few months whose tea leaves are more accurate

I guess we'll see (hopefully I'm right :)). Mettenberger isn't going to be a starting option for any teams in 2014, so I don't think a team with glaring QB needs is going to want to take him. Any QB taken in the first round is expected to be ready to start quickly. It's a similar situation to Marcus Lattimore last year, although obviously a QB is going to be more highly picked than a RB.

If not Mettenberger, I think Tajh Boyd would be an intriguing option as well.

[Wonderful Monds]

Would it be that hard to get Kirk Cousins from Washington? At least to compete with Dalton for the job?

[RiverRat13]

Would it be that hard to get Kirk Cousins from Washington? At least to compete with Dalton for the job?

Dalton is better than Cousins.

[Kingspoint]

It's more than just poise. We've seen him throw "jump ball" INTs on 1st and 10. We saw that happen twice in the home game vs Baltimore. We've also seen him throw deep balls to AJ where there's a safety sitting deeper than Green. These are all bad judgements and throws that ought not be made. For Andy to be successful he needs to be more of a game manager (like Alex Smith) and cut down on the turnovers. I'd be fine with him getting intercepted if it's 3rd and long and he's under pressure but these are examples of him making unforced errors

I think those throws into coverage are by design per Gruden. I'm sure Gruden believes that Green is so good that his ability to come up with either the catch or a bat-down with the resulting positive play outweighs the potential negative play. Almost every time these plays are made from between the Bengals' 40 and the opponent's 45, where a resulting INT turns into good field position for the Bengals. While many would argue that these attempts should only be made on 3rd down, I think they are done on 1st down at times so that if the result is an incompletion, there are still two downs left to make a first and keep the drive going. If it's done on 3rd down, the chances of a completion are small and it's likely that the drive stalls. On 1st or 2nd down, it's a free shot at a huge gain with the least amount of risk.

Because Green should be thrown to deep at least four times per game in my opinion, it's probably the reason that bad results happen so often. Green is probably thrown to deeper than any Wide Receiver in the league. I'm sure I could come up with a stat that shows this if you would like.

[Wonderful Monds]

Dalton is better than Cousins.

I don't think that's necessarily true.

[Kingspoint]

green is probably thrown to deeper than any wide receiver in the league. I'm sure i could come up with a stat that shows this if you would like.


2013 wr deep targets

6738

6739

[Revering4Blue]

From Jason Whitlock's column.


Andy Dalton is a game manager -- an interception-prone bad one. He's an elite version of Brad Johnson. The Buccaneers won a Super Bowl with Johnson. So the Bengals can win with Dalton. But Johnson was a journeyman for a reason. He never stuck with one team for more than five years in a row.

You date Andy Dalton until you land a legitimate franchise QB.

The Bengals will be a Super Bowl favorite heading into the 2014 regular season. It's unlikely there's a veteran upgrade to replace Dalton. There's no Alex Smith for Cincy to acquire. Drafting a rookie at the bottom of Round 1 is the best option for the Bengals. Let Dalton try to duplicate Flacco's contract season from a season ago, and then let some other team overpay Dalton next offseason.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10259464/whitlock-10-nfl-truths

[Kingspoint]

Would it be that hard to get Kirk Cousins from Washington? At least to compete with Dalton for the job?

It's hard to judge Cousins. He played very well against some very good Secondary's and Defense's last season (Baltimore and Cleveland) while playing badly against some very bad Secondary's and Defense's this season (KC-Wk14, Atl, Dal, & NYG).

After a second consecutive rough week, this time at MetLife Stadium in a 20-6 loss to the New York Giants, any hopes that Cousins had raised his trade value appear dashed. That was one of the goals Washington coach Mike Shanahan stated publicly when he decided to bench quarterback Robert Griffin III for the final three games against Atlanta, Dallas and the Giants. It didn’t work out as planned.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/29/kirk-cousins-three-game-audition-doesnt-yield-too-/

He's a couple of years behind Dalton's progress at this point. But, he could conceivably pass him in 2015 or 2016, but so could dozens of other choices.

Scouting reports describe him in the same light as Dalton coming into the league. Same size, arm, accuracy, footwork, issues with pressure (though Dalton rarely faced any pressure in College so that wasn't really known information on Dalton).

[Kingspoint]

...and then let some other team overpay Dalton next offseason.

...or franchise-tag him for 2015 if he shows enough promise in 2014, but not enough to commit to him a lot of guaranteed money while waiting for our 2014/15 QB draft prospect to improve.

[The DARK]

I read a post a while back saying that Dalton wasn't a game manager; in fact, he's really the opposite of a game manager. He doesn't have those kind of stats or throw that few passes; he may have the skillset of Alex Smith but he has the playstyle of Tony Romo. He tries to put the game on his shoulders even if he isn't capable of that.

I think if Gruden leaves this year, we need to find a coordinator that can settle him down and get him in a much more conservative role. I believe he's a good QB that Gruden is trying to do too much with. We have a potent offense with a great o-line, so let's not put Dalton in a situation where he needs to worry about constant pressure and being the total focus of the defense.

On a side note, if Zimmer gets nabbed by another team (as he should, he's been brilliant for years), we should promote Paul Guenther. He's turned a LB corps full of busts, has-beens, and UDFAs into one of the best units in the league, even in the fact of constant injury.

[Hoosier Red]

I read a post a while back saying that Dalton wasn't a game manager; in fact, he's really the opposite of a game manager. He doesn't have those kind of stats or throw that few passes; he may have the skillset of Alex Smith but he has the playstyle of Tony Romo. He tries to put the game on his shoulders even if he isn't capable of that.

I think if Gruden leaves this year, we need to find a coordinator that can settle him down and get him in a much more conservative role. I believe he's a good QB that Gruden is trying to do too much with. We have a potent offense with a great o-line, so let's not put Dalton in a situation where he needs to worry about constant pressure and being the total focus of the defense.

On a side note, if Zimmer gets nabbed by another team (as he should, he's been brilliant for years), we should promote Paul Guenther. He's turned a LB corps full of busts, has-beens, and UDFAs into one of the best units in the league, even in the fact of constant injury.

According to Lapham, if Zimmer is hired as a head coach, he'd likely bring Guenther as his DC and Hue Jackson as his OC.

[The DARK]

According to Lapham, if Zimmer is hired as a head coach, he'd likely bring Guenther as his DC and Hue Jackson as his OC.

That would be quite a blow. We've stockpiled a formidable amount of coaching talent over the past few years, and while I don't think Marvin should be fired, it would be nice to see the systems we have on defense stay firmly in place. I suppose it goes to show the amount of respect Zim commands, and why he'll probably be able to pick from any number of HC jobs he gets offered.

[Yachtzee]

According to Lapham, if Zimmer is hired as a head coach, he'd likely bring Guenther as his DC and Hue Jackson as his OC.

Wouldn't that depend on whether the Bengals have them under contract? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was some rule that limited how teams could raid each other for coaches. Say for example, if Zimmer gets hired by someone and the Bengals promote Guenther to DC, the other team can't hire Guenther to be DC. It has to be a promotion over their current position, not a sideways move. Now if Zimmer left and the Bengals failed to promote Guenther or keep him under contract, he'd be fair game. I'm not sure, but I thought it was to prevent teams from poaching each other's assistants by offering more money for a lateral move. Anyone else heard of this?

[RiverRat13]

Wouldn't that depend on whether the Bengals have them under contract? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was some rule that limited how teams could raid each other for coaches. Say for example, if Zimmer gets hired by someone and the Bengals promote Guenther to DC, the other team can't hire Guenther to be DC. It has to be a promotion over their current position, not a sideways move. Now if Zimmer left and the Bengals failed to promote Guenther or keep him under contract, he'd be fair game. I'm not sure, but I thought it was to prevent teams from poaching each other's assistants by offering more money for a lateral move. Anyone else heard of this?

If Gruden gets hired first (and it is sounding like he will), the Bengals could immediately promote Hue and your scenario would come into play. Not sure how that would work with Guenther and perhaps Marvin has someone else in mind anyway.

[Hoosier Red]

Wouldn't that depend on whether the Bengals have them under contract? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was some rule that limited how teams could raid each other for coaches. Say for example, if Zimmer gets hired by someone and the Bengals promote Guenther to DC, the other team can't hire Guenther to be DC. It has to be a promotion over their current position, not a sideways move. Now if Zimmer left and the Bengals failed to promote Guenther or keep him under contract, he'd be fair game. I'm not sure, but I thought it was to prevent teams from poaching each other's assistants by offering more money for a lateral move. Anyone else heard of this?

I'm not sure but I think teams can't demand compensation for a coach from gaining a promotion, ie LB coach to Coordinator... I'm also not sure how the calendar works if for instance, the Bengals promoted Guenther the moment Zimmer left.

[Stray]

Sounds like Gruden is gonna be the Redskins HC.

I have no idea what to think of Jay. On one hand I know he's imaginative, and I think he's a really good offensive mind, but there have been so many times where I question what in the world he's thinking. You'd think after 3 years I'd be able to have formed an opinion but ah well. Good luck to him in Washington.

[Stray]

Lets go ahead and promote Hue Jackson to OC. No need to wait around, it's a no brainer.

[Boston Red]

Congrats to Jay, one of my favorite Louisville Cardinals of all-time.

[Hillsdale87]

Per Mike Freeman on twitter: "I've texted with Bengals players who say the team will miss Gruden dearly. Other Bengals say the offense will be better without him."

[Kingspoint]

Other Bengals say the offense will be better without him."
Yes. It will be better.

Hue also makes sure he has a very good Center. Hopefully, this means adios to Cook, along with obtaining a RB who can run between the Tackles for 4+ ypc instead of the 3.2-3.6 of Benson and BJGE. The O-line will finally be able to run-block like the power blockers they were drafted to be.

[UKFlounder]

Was Bruce Coslet to the Jets the last Bengals assistant to get a head coaching job or am I forgetting someone?

I think Hue Jackson went to Atlanta as O-coordinator before teh Raiders hired him, but maybe I'm misremembering that.

Anyway, I did complain about Gruden at times and the offense was not always consistent, but overall he did a much better job than Bratkowski and the team was better with him than before, so I do appreciate that & wish him well.

[Yachtzee]

Bengals facebook page is saying indicate "rumors" that Gruden is going to Washington and Hue Jackson will be promoted to replace him.

[WVRed]

Only thing that concerns me with Hue is the vertical offense. Dalton is not a deep threat.

Hopefully they draft or sign somebody with a rocket arm or this could be a disaster.

[Sea Ray]

Only thing that concerns me with Hue is the vertical offense. Dalton is not a deep threat.

Hopefully they draft or sign somebody with a rocket arm or this could be a disaster.

Hue knows what we have in Dalton. I'm sure he can adjust his plans accordingly

[Yachtzee]

Hue knows what we have in Dalton. I'm sure he can adjust his plans accordingly

According to Bengals.com, Jackson is a big proponent of the run game, which should take the pressure off Dalton.

[Joseph]

According to Bengals.com, Jackson is a big proponent of the run game, which should take the pressure off Dalton.

If the o-line can come back healthy and be road graders

[RiverRat13]

According to Bengals.com, Jackson is a big proponent of the run game, which should take the pressure off Dalton.

The Bengals had the 8th most rushing attempts of any team in the NFL. The problem was they were 27th in yds/carry. So I'm not sure the Bengals need to make a bigger commitment to the running game as they need to be better when they actually do run the ball. And to me, that means upgrading BJGE and not have Anthony Collins be your starting left tackle.

[Yachtzee]

The Bengals had the 8th most rushing attempts of any team in the NFL. The problem was they were 27th in yds/carry. So I'm not sure the Bengals need to make a bigger commitment to the running game as they need to be better when they actually do run the ball. And to me, that means upgrading BJGE and not have Anthony Collins be your starting left tackle.

The guards are actually more crucial to the run game than tackles. Thus, the run game improved when Whitworth shifted to guard and Collins played tackle.

[Redsfaithful]

Looking at the Raiders offense the year Hue was OC is really interesting. Sixth overall offense that year with Jason Campbell as the QB. Scored 410 points, which is pretty solid for the talent they had. Darren McFadden had by far his best season (could argue that's because of health.)

I'm optimistic, could be a good situation for all involved. It's possible Gruden will be a better HC than OC and I think Hue's philosophy will match up better with Marvin's and better with the QB the Bengals have.

[Kingspoint]

Hue knows what we have in Dalton. I'm sure he can adjust his plans accordingly

Yes. Under Hue, the Raiders threw and threw and threw to TE's and RB's because they didn't have the WR's.

[Stray]

I can't help but think we're a better team today than we were yesterday. I look forward to Hue's offense.

[Ohayou]

Now I can change the Choo in my signature to Hue.

[nmculbreth]

I'm not sure I can ever remember a fanbase being quite as ambivalent about losing a coordinator who left to take a head coaching gig... In my mind Hue Jackson is a clear upgrade.

[Kingspoint]

I wonder if Hue Jackson is wishing he had John Connor to block for his run-game now?

John Connor was the highest graded player in the entire NYG Offense this season per Profootballfocus even though Connor only played for them for two-thirds of a season.

Connor's 2013 season and all Fullbacks...

6740

6741

[Sea Ray]

Former Bengal Carl Pickens having issues beating up his wife:

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/ex-nfl-player-faces-battery-charge-in-gwinnett/ncggr/

In that picture he looks like he could qualify for Medicare. He don't look good

[RiverRat13]

The guards are actually more crucial to the run game than tackles. Thus, the run game improved when Whitworth shifted to guard and Collins played tackle.

Did the run game actually improve?

The 11 games before Whitworth shifted to guard:

294-1074
3.65 yds/carry

The six games with Whit at guard:

187-681
3.64 yds/carry

[Kingspoint]

Did the run game actually improve?

The 11 games before Whitworth shifted to guard:

294-1074
3.65 yds/carry

The six games with Whit at guard:

187-681
3.64 yds/carry

Whit didn't play six games at Guard when the shift was made. The Chargers were Week 13. The shift was made when Boling went down in the 1st Qtr. So, that was 3-3/4's games, not counting the playoff game. The run was also abandoned vs Baltimore when we were down 24-0 and again abandoned in the Playoff game in the second half.

Boling had regressed steadily since Week 2, while Zeitler had regressed steadily since Week 2. Pollack had his 2nd Start, I believe, in the Charger game and played well. Whitworth, from Week 13 and on played Guard better than anyone in the NFL. Collins played very well at LT. The run-blocking improved once Whit moved to Guard.

[CTA513]

I wonder if Hue Jackson is wishing he had John Connor to block for his run-game now?

John Connor was the highest graded player in the entire NYG Offense this season per Profootballfocus even though Connor only played for them for two-thirds of a season.

Connor's 2013 season and all Fullbacks...


I can see Hue adding a FB to the offense.
He had a really talented one in Oakland named Marcel Reece.
http://www.nfl.com/player/marcelreece/4433/profile

Hes pretty much what the Bengals are trying to make Olson Charles into.

[GAC]

Now I thought this was quite humorous :p

Imprisoned Pennsylvania man seeks injunction to remove San Diego Chargers from playoffs

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/imprisoned-pennsylvania-man-seeks-injunction-remove-san-diego-153820166--nfl.html

[RiverRat13]

Whit didn't play six games at Guard when the shift was made. The Chargers were Week 13. The shift was made when Boling went down in the 1st Qtr. So, that was 3-3/4's games, not counting the playoff game. The run was also abandoned vs Baltimore when we were down 24-0 and again abandoned in the Playoff game in the second half.


I counted the playoff game and the first Chargers game to get to six (Chargers, Colts, Steelers, Vikings, Ravens, Chargers). Week 13 is only the 12th game due to the bye. And while I think you mean the run game was abandoned in the Pittsburgh game instead of Baltimore, the Bengals still ran it 22 times for only 57 yards.

I think the running game slightly improved when Whit moved to guard, but not greatly by any means. 3.64 yds/carry is not very good no matter how you slice it. So I still believe there needs to be personnel upgrades along the offensive line and at RB to complement Gio to go with whatever schematic changes Hue implements.

[Kingspoint]

I counted the playoff game and the first Chargers game to get to six (Chargers, Colts, Steelers, Vikings, Ravens, Chargers). Week 13 is only the 12th game due to the bye. And while I think you mean the run game was abandoned in the Pittsburgh game instead of Baltimore, the Bengals still ran it 22 times for only 57 yards.

I think the running game slightly improved when Whit moved to guard, but not greatly by any means. 3.64 yds/carry is not very good no matter how you slice it. So I still believe there needs to be personnel upgrades along the offensive line and at RB to complement Gio to go with whatever schematic changes Hue implements.
Thanks for making it more clear (one tries to block from memory things like what happened vs Pittsburgh).

The play-calling certainly didn't take advantage of the improved blocking, except for perhaps the increased number of read-options (makes me wonder if Gruden wasn't just showcasing for Washington), and the increased number of times our LG pulled.

[KoryMac5]

I would not be shocked to see Law Firm released by the Bengals this offseason. I wonder if Hue would encourage Marvin to give McFadden a look.

[Yachtzee]

Nice article on the '88 Bengals, but the end just brings up more frustration with Mike Brown. I credit him for passing up the chance to move to Baltimore, but some of the ways he handles this things with the team and the community just drive me nuts. I get the impression he's like Sheldon Cooper, completely ignorant of how to deal with people, but without the genius intellect, at least when it comes to football.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10267184/remembering-1988-cincinnati-bengals

[Kingspoint]

Looks like a done deal as Zimmer becomes Head Coach of the Minnesota Vikings. No announcement will be made until they speak to Greg Roman and that won't happen until the 49er's lose, but it's just semantics at this point. Can't see Roman being chosen over Zimmer. 80% of Vikings' fans in polls want Zimmer for the obvious reasons. He's simply a force to be reckoned with.

Vikings better not wait too long, or Tennessee or Cleveland will snatch him up. Word to Zimmer...stay far away from Cleveland.

I'm really going to miss him.

Thank goodness for the upgrade at O.C. to balance out the downgrade at D.C. (no matter who were to take over). Hurry up and heal, Geno. We need ya.

[Tom Servo]

I would not be shocked to see Law Firm released by the Bengals this offseason. I wonder if Hue would encourage Marvin to give McFadden a look.

The Contra Costa Times' Steve Corkran believes free agent Darren McFadden is "destined" to sign with the Bengals.

https://twitter.com/CorkOnTheNFL/status/421757270213410817

[MWM]

Looks like a done deal as Zimmer becomes Head Coach of the Minnesota Vikings. No announcement will be made until they speak to Greg Roman and that won't happen until the 49er's lose, but it's just semantics at this point. Can't see Roman being chosen over Zimmer. 80% of Vikings' fans in polls want Zimmer for the obvious reasons. He's simply a force to be reckoned with.

Vikings better not wait too long, or Tennessee or Cleveland will snatch him up. Word to Zimmer...stay far away from Cleveland.

I'm really going to miss him.

Thank goodness for the upgrade at O.C. to balance out the downgrade at D.C. (no matter who were to take over). Hurry up and heal, Geno. We need ya.

This makes me sad. He's been my favorite Bengals coach ever. I think he's going to be an excellent head coach.

[Wonderful Monds]

The Contra Costa Times' Steve Corkran believes free agent Darren McFadden is "destined" to sign with the Bengals.

https://twitter.com/CorkOnTheNFL/status/421757270213410817

Nice. I'm all for that. I didn't even realize he'd be available this offseason.

McFadden and Gio would be a killer combination.

[RichRed]

This makes me sad. He's been my favorite Bengals coach ever. I think he's going to be an excellent head coach.

Zimmer's the Bengals assistant I was hoping the Redskins would hire.

[Kingspoint]

This makes me sad. He's been my favorite Bengals coach ever. I think he's going to be an excellent head coach.

Yes. It's going to be a few days before I get over it. I actually feel true depression at times regarding my favorite sports' teams. When Paul Brown died, that one was difficult. I wanted Zimmer for so long to become a Bengal, when he finally became one, I was ecstatic. Never thought we'd have him for so long and still fail to win a playoff game. I am happy for him, though.

The McFadden connection makes a lot of sense. He's so fragile and Mike Brown will not overpay for a guy like that. His 3.6 yds/carry each of the last two seasons fits right in there with the Benson's and BJGE's of the world. McFadden can catch out of the backfield, though. Huge difference. Hue tends to get what he wants. I would welcome McFadden to the team whole-heartedly. The money to pay for him can come from releasing BJGE.

[top6]

Yes. It's going to be a few days before I get over it. I actually feel true depression at times regarding my favorite sports' teams. When Paul Brown died, that one was difficult. I wanted Zimmer for so long to become a Bengal, when he finally became one, I was ecstatic. Never thought we'd have him for so long and still fail to win a playoff game. I am happy for him, though.

The McFadden connection makes a lot of sense. He's so fragile and Mike Brown will not overpay for a guy like that. His 3.6 yds/carry each of the last two seasons fits right in there with the Benson's and BJGE's of the world. McFadden can catch out of the backfield, though. Huge difference. Hue tends to get what he wants. I would welcome McFadden to the team whole-heartedly. The money to pay for him can come from releasing BJGE.

Where are you hearing that he's definitely going to the Vikings? All I'm seeing elsewhere is that he's one of 3 finalists.

[KoryMac5]

I would imagine the Bengals go in house with Paul Guenther or a wild card in Jim Schwartz to replace Zimmer if he does leave. Schwartz may take the job to keep his name out there with a good defensive unit so he can get another shot at a coaching job.

Love Zimmer and I hope the Vikings come back to the jungle so Zim can get his due from the crowd!!!

[RiverRat13]

Nice article on the '88 Bengals, but the end just brings up more frustration with Mike Brown. I credit him for passing up the chance to move to Baltimore, but some of the ways he handles this things with the team and the community just drive me nuts. I get the impression he's like Sheldon Cooper, completely ignorant of how to deal with people, but without the genius intellect, at least when it comes to football.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10267184/remembering-1988-cincinnati-bengals

Great article. Few things burn me more as a sports fan than when someone cites Marv Levy as the creator of the no-huddle. Especially considering he whined like a little girl about it to the league.

[Tony Cloninger]

Making the playoffs means less than nothing. A team with a losing record can make the playoffs. The Bengals are a mediocre team at best, whether or not they go one and done in the playoffs every year.

Good grief they were 11-5 with 2 tough OT losses on the road......Top 5... 5... defense and ...despite being inconsistent at times ...a Top 10 offense.
This without Atkins for 7 games and Hall for 10. NO consistent production from BJE AND a below average Center....and a bad Kevin Z at Guard.

Mediocre? Did you even live through the 1991-2002 era at all?

How many teams have made the playoffs with losing records in the last 30 years?

1..... that is it. Maybe about 3 times it was 8-8. I am not happy they lost the way they did either but this is beyond over the top hyperbole.

[Tony Cloninger]

Nice article on the '88 Bengals, but the end just brings up more frustration with Mike Brown. I credit him for passing up the chance to move to Baltimore, but some of the ways he handles this things with the team and the community just drive me nuts. I get the impression he's like Sheldon Cooper, completely ignorant of how to deal with people, but without the genius intellect, at least when it comes to football.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10267184/remembering-1988-cincinnati-bengals


I appreciate it as well....but he wears it like a badge of great honor and always with the ...My father was fired and that affected my family.
How many times do we have to hear about Modell firing his dad as a reason for his obtuse feelings on what is loyalty and what is actually good business sense?

We get it....he fired your dad, it was tough. How did it work out for your Whole family in the end?? I say pretty good.

Your dad was not doing very well into the 60's with thteam and personnel moves.
Letting Len Dawson, Willie Davis, **** LeBeau.....among 3 I can remember off the top of my head....go for Nothing in return. He was Losing more talent than bringing in.

His players were not happy with him and his rigid ways? Sound familiar??

What did the Browns do after they went 8-6 and he was fired in 1963? Go to back to back NFL Championships, with one Championship.....with the same freaking players.

Mike...He was fired for good Business reasons.

IF Marvin has more control why is Paul Alexander still here?

They want a Running game with a guy who either cannot draft OL who can run block or he cannot coach them up.
We heard Kevin Z was a road grader....and here in year 2 he regressed....while David DeCastro made All Pro teams..... and Evan Mathis? Made even more All Pro teams, which to me....is much more of an indication of how good you are than a Pro Bowl nod.

AND can someone PLEASE develop a Center. Please...... bring Bob Johnson back, Rich Braham....someone who is NOT a sock puppet for DT up the middle.


That is the only issue I have with this team. The OL coach.....and his methods.

[Hoosier Red]

I'm not disputing your take on the results Tony, but I've always been under the impression Alexander is actually pretty well thought of around the league.

However, it's also possible that Alexander has succeeded in bringing guys who were otherwise castoffs(Collins, Roland, Cook) and brought them up to a passable level, while perhaps not helping elevate otherwise good linemen to an exceptional level.

[Tony Cloninger]

I'm not disputing your take on the results Tony, but I've always been under the impression Alexander is actually pretty well thought of around the league.

However, it's also possible that Alexander has succeeded in bringing guys who were otherwise castoffs(Collins, Roland, Cook) and brought them up to a passable level, while perhaps not helping elevate otherwise good linemen to an exceptional level.

He could be but the fact that his wife is Very good friends with Mike's wife......and he has lasted here twice as long as McNally...who created zone blocking here....and developed a great OL, even if having Munoz made it seem like not much was needed.... is pretty telling to how Mike still runs things.
McNally made more out of less, while Paul seems to not be able to do that as well. Sure....Collins is good, but he wasted Mathis here.... and what happened to Kevin Z and Clint Boling? We are to trust this guy with trying to build an OL that will help run the ball more?

Now...I am sure Lewis could also make a suggestion to replace him, and maybe he does like him as well.
However something is not making sense here. You have been talking about running the ball since you have been a HC.....yet you seem to be getting worse at it. In 2009 was the only time running the ball seem to work for this team...on any consistent basis.

I think Cook is below average. They seem to not value the importance of this position at all...ironic since that is the position Paul started his team with in the draft

[Hoosier Red]

I'm not sure if it's a case of not valuing the position as much as the Bengals disagreeing with your assessment on Cook's value.

Cook is paid $2.5 Million which is 10th among Centers right now, 3rd among the Centers on playoff teams.
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/center/

I pulled the Starting center off of Ourlads' depth chart and tracked how they came to their current team. 10 current starters(5 on playoff teams) were either signed as College Free Agents or signed off the street.
http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/depthchartpos/OC

[Tony Cloninger]

I'm not sure if it's a case of not valuing the position as much as the Bengals disagreeing with your assessment on Cook's value.

Cook is paid $2.5 Million which is 10th among Centers right now, 3rd among the Centers on playoff teams.
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/center/

I pulled the Starting center off of Ourlads' depth chart and tracked how they came to their current team. 10 current starters(5 on playoff teams) were either signed as College Free Agents or signed off the street.
http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/depthchartpos/OC



I think many bengals fans disagree with how the team values Cook,.

After Braham retired due to an injury.....it has been a real letdown.... with Gutcheck and Cook. I think the 2 Guards next to him have to cover for his play.

I also understand that many teams get centers from very low picks or UFA.
It's not like there are Dwight Stephenson's or Kevin Maewa? coming out of college every year.

[Hoosier Red]

As for some of the other guys you brought up, while the Bengals didn't resign Mathis after 2010, the Bengals had already rescued him from the scrap heap in 2009 when they signed him after he was waived after his 2nd team.

Zeitler was better in 2012 when DeCastro was injured, while DeCastro was better than Zeitler in 2013 while Zeitler battled injuries. I'm not sure there is conclusive evidence for either side.

[Hoosier Red]

I think many bengals fans disagree with how the team values Cook,.

After Braham retired due to an injury.....it has been a real letdown.... with Gutcheck and Cook. I think the 2 Guards next to him have to cover for his play.

I also understand that many teams get centers from very low picks or UFA.
It's not like there are Dwight Stephenson's or Kevin Maewa? coming out of college every year.

That may be. I'm not necessarily as sold on Cook as the Bengals are, but back to your original question, I don't think it's because the Bengals don't value the Center position, and I don't think it necessarily backs up an assertion that Paul Alexander only has a job because his wife is friends with Mike's wife.

[Tony Cloninger]

As for some of the other guys you brought up, while the Bengals didn't resign Mathis after 2010, the Bengals had already rescued him from the scrap heap in 2009 when they signed him after he was waived after his 2nd team.

Zeitler was better in 2012 when DeCastro was injured, while DeCastro was better than Zeitler in 2013 while Zeitler battled injuries. I'm not sure there is conclusive evidence for either side.

I thought Zeitler was not playing well before the injury.......but who knows if he was injured before his real injury, which in football terms means you are out.
I imagine these OL are always playing with some injury.

The thing is that Z was supposed to be the road grader...that DeCastro was not.

Quit talking about how you want to be a run team and then not develop guys to do it.

I just think Gruden and Alexander did not mix in their styles of what they wanted the OL to do.

[Hoosier Red]

I thought Zeitler was not playing well before the injury.......but who knows if he was injured before his real injury, which in football terms means you are out.
I imagine these OL are always playing with some injury.

The thing is that Z was supposed to be the road grader...that DeCastro was not.

Quit talking about how you want to be a run team and then not develop guys to do it.

I just think Gruden and Alexander did not mix in their styles of what they wanted the OL to do.

That's a legit criticism, I think it was part and parcel of the team not having a consistent identity.

[Tony Cloninger]

That's a legit criticism, I think it was part and parcel of the team not having a consistent identity.

I recall the 1986 season....as the same issue. 52 against The jets at home with 600+ yards...almost 600 yards on the road against the patriots, almost 300 yards rushing. 34 against the Seahawks at home with over 500 yards. Well over 200 yards on the road in Cleveland and 30 points. All good teams at that time.

Then they score 9 on the road against a mediocre Steelers team. At home they scored 3 against Cleveland in between that NE and Jets game.

One of the best Bengals team along with the 1976 team not to make the playoffs.

The 1986 could run at anyone.....but they also could not do anything if they could not run....as Boomer was erratic that year. That defense though was not anywhere close to what they have now...and that was the difference.

But I think it funny how Boomer and Collingsworth can get on these bengals for being typical.......when those 1984-87 teams were just a slacking in the same character and ability to win important games as well...until 1988 that is.

[Yachtzee]

I don't know if the inconsistencies with the run game have come from poor coaching on Alexander's part or Gruden's preference of the pass over the run game. It should be interesting to see if Jackson's renewed emphasis on the run game results in personnel changes or maybe changes in blocking schemes to aid the run. Time will tell.

[Kingspoint]

Without a change at Center, the run game will never improve (unless both Guards next to Cook are so good to minimize his ineffectiveness).

[KoryMac5]

Hue Jackson said today he was definitely interested in McFadden. Obviously the price has to be right though as he loves Gio.

[bucksfan2]

I don't know if the inconsistencies with the run game have come from poor coaching on Alexander's part or Gruden's preference of the pass over the run game. It should be interesting to see if Jackson's renewed emphasis on the run game results in personnel changes or maybe changes in blocking schemes to aid the run. Time will tell.

I think BJGE fell off a cliff this year in terms of being a decent back. It was almost like he was step slow and not as strong as he was the year before. It became evident quickly that Bernard was not only a more dangerous back but also a back who was better at picking up the tough yard.

I think Gruden struggled with his run play calling at times. The stretch or pitch run play doesn't work in the NFL anymore and Gruden called that quite a few times. Even more maddening is when he called it with BJGE in the backfield. Overall I think his play calling got too cute at times and the Bengals suffered because of it.

[wolfboy]

Hue Jackson said today he was definitely interested in McFadden. Obviously the price has to be right though as he loves Gio.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/sports/2014/01/13/were-hue-jacksons-darren-mcfadden-remarks-tampering/

[Kingspoint]

Whisenhunt named to the Titans' HC position.

Jim Caldwell candidate to Lions' HC position.

https://twitter.com/mortreport/statu...68166474084352


Zimmer likely to be named HC of the Vikings on Tuesday following his second interview:

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2014/1/13/5303340/zimmer-second-interview-on-tuesday-may-not-leave



...

[Hoosier Red]

Thought this was interesting in discussing the offensive line.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/13/2013-offensive-line-rankings/4/

2. Cincinnati Bengals (8th)
PB: 1st, RB: 10th, PEN: 12th

Dud: He’d be a solid starter on most teams, but Kyle Cook (-4.8) remains the weakest link on a strong unit.

It was extremely impressive to see how the Bengals coped with injury, ending the year with six offensive linemen who played at least 350 snaps with a positive grade.

I'm certainly not one to hold Pro Football Focus as the end all be all to the discussion, but they certainly had a lot of good things to say.

I am curious how a guy grades out as -4.8 and would be a "solid starter" on most teams. If a solid starter grades out as negative, it strikes me that the grade system is too harsh.

[Kingspoint]

I am curious how a guy grades out as -4.8 and would be a "solid starter" on most teams. If a solid starter grades out as negative, it strikes me that the grade system is too harsh.

For several reasons.


First, divide the -4.8 by 16 and you get -0.3 per game, which is about as close to "average" as you can get.


Second, add in the 17th game of the season where he graded out at +1.2, and his grade for the season is -3.6, or -0.2 per game, which is as average as one can get.


Third, PFF takes three categories that are not of equal value and gives them equal weight, pass-blocking, run-blocking, and penalties. Cook had four plays where he had a penalty, and 1,152 other plays where he didn't, yet those four plays are weighted as 1/3 of the total score. Of the 1,152 run/block plays, those are weighted equally, even though there are more passing plays than blocking plays (694 to 458).

Cook's strength was pass-blocking and he was asked to do that 60% of the time, the same ratio that the league passes the ball.

Overall, Cook graded out at +0.1 pass-blocking and -4.4 run-blocking. He graded out at +1.7 in penalties.


Fourth, Cook is more interesting when you look at what he did from Week 6 to the playoff game vs the Chargers. His pass-blocking was +4.8, and his run-blocking was -6.7. In the first five games, Cook gave up 10 QB pressures. In the last 12 games, he gave up 11 QB pressures.

There were a lot of excuses given to Dalton that he had trouble making throws because he needs to be able to step up into the pocket. I know, as I said as much myself. But, Cook isn't to blame for this. In a league where the QB's throw the ball 60% of the time (except for this year's trend of playoff performances), Cook is more than adequate as a Starter in this league. If a team wants to run the ball effectively, then Cook is not a Starter in this league. Through Week 14 of 2011, Cook had been an effective run-blocker. But, he fell apart completely Week 15, and has been bad ever since. Maybe there was an injury in that Week 14 Houston game or the Week 15 St. Louis game, that effects his run-blocking, like a lower back injury, or something else. Whatever the reason, he can't run-block anymore.

While Cook will be effective elsewhere on a team that doesn't care to run the ball well, Hue Jackson won't put his Offense's future in the hands of a Center who can't run-block. Better to find a Guard who can run-block and try to turn him into a Center, move Whitworth permanently to LG (and let him make the line-calls), and have the new Center concentrate on hiking and blocking.

6744

[Redsfaithful]

The line played well at times, but they were horrible at running the ball, and they were very bad in the playoff game, and that's where the frustration comes from.

There were many plays against the Chargers where Andy Dalton was immediately under pressure after the snap, and I don't care how talented a QB is they are going to make mistakes and look bad when that happens.

[Hoosier Red]

I agree Redsfaithful,
Basically the entire 2nd half, it looked like the Chargers DC picked Gruden's play in Tecmo Bowl.

I'm not sure I'd agree they couldn't run the ball though. They couldn't(or didn't) do it consistently for sure. But when they committed to the run, it seemed to bear fruit. I'm sure there's a little chicken and egg there though.

Oh and thanks for the explanation Kingspoint. Makes a lot of sense now.

[Redsfaithful]

Weren't they like 27th in YPC? 3.6 is pretty bad.

[Kingspoint]

Weren't they like 27th in YPC? 3.6 is pretty bad.

They've pretty much been stuck at 3.6 ypc since Rich Braham left. If you had a Peyton Manning, you could live with that, which he did quite often, but there's only one of him, and 3.6 ypc just doesn't get it done. We've had good to excellent LT, RT, and RG play over that time period. The consistent factors have been plodding backs (Benson and BJGE) and sub-par Center play (but Cook blocked well in 2010 and through Week 14 of 2011, so I have to give him credit there....can't remember who we had at RT then...was that the Stacy Andrews era?)

[Sea Ray]

I'm sure they rated us #1 in pass blocking because of the (few) number of sacks but that doesn't tell the whole story. If Dalton had 2 secs to get rid of the ball and he dumps it in 1.8 then the O-line gets credit for not giving up a sack. No way this team was the best pass blocking team in the league. My eyeball test showed many other teams giving their QB a cleaner pocket

[Kingspoint]

2013 qb pressure

6745


"HAT" is "Hit as thrown".

"TA" is "Thrown away".


QB DECISION TO THROW (ranked in order of when the QB first decides to throw the ball)

6746

[Kingspoint]

Ray Horton is a candidate to be the DC in Cincinnati. Cleveland is allowing him to interview for lateral moves with the understanding that he'll be gone with whoever is the new hire there (per adam scheffler).

Ray Horton or Paul Guenther? Both are good candidates. I'll take Horton, though. I like his body of work. He'll also have less of Marvin to influence him than Guenther might.

[MWM]

Ray Horton would be awesome. Would make me feel much better about losing Zimmer.

[Redsfaithful]

Do we really worry about Marvin influencing a DC? He was a pretty good one.

[Benihana]

Any more word on Zim? I thought today was supposed to be the day

[Kingspoint]

Any more word on Zim? I thought today was supposed to be the day

There are over 1200 posts (had to restart after 1000) on a Vikings' fan website and most of them look like this:


https://31.media.tumblr.com/26fec5486036d9341db034559e3dd895/tumblr_inline_myxxclmW5U1rzr367.gif

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2014/1/14/5308984/zimmerwatch-part-deux-mike-zimmer-minnesota-vikings-coaching-search

[Kingspoint]

Mike Marek @MikeWinPost
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Expect the #Vikings not to offer a contract to Zimmer today. Likely to still offer Bowles a 2nd interview.

http://stripehype.com/2014/01/14/vikings-mike-zimmer-today-will-interview-todd-bowles/

Mike Zimmer is in Minnesota Tuesday interviewing the Vikings, and there’s been rampant speculation the team was set to hire him today and still may do so. Take this latest report with a grain of slat, but it doesn’t appear the team is going to offer him a contract to make him their next head coach today, according to Vikings Columnist Mike Marek of the Winona Post, who also reports the team plans to interview Todd Bowles for a second time:

Regardless, the Vikings don’t have to hire him today anyhow for him to leave Minnesota as their next head coach, as Zimmer is scheduled to stay in town until tomorrow:


From Mike Florio....

Bengals defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer’s name has gained momentum in recent days, especially in light of the decision to give him a second interview. But the Vikings also could be intent on taking a closer look at Seahawks offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell and Seahawks defensive coordinator Dan Quinn. Because Minnesota interviewed both of them during the wild-card bye week, the Vikings can interview either or both for a second time next week, if the Seahawks qualify for the Super Bowl.

[Kingspoint]

Fans were wondering what is taking the Vikings so long to make a decision and one fan said,...

The entire coaching staff of the Vikings has to play Zimmer in Madden 25; three have to beat him. Only George Stewart has done it so far, and he did it with the 98 Vikings.

Thought that was pretty funny.

[Boss-Hog]

Ray Horton is a candidate to be the DC in Cincinnati. Cleveland is allowing him to interview for lateral moves with the understanding that he'll be gone with whoever is the new hire there (per adam scheffler).

Ray Horton or Paul Guenther? Both are good candidates. I'll take Horton, though. I like his body of work. He'll also have less of Marvin to influence him than Guenther might.

Hasn't Horton always run 3-4 defenses (which makes sense, given that he's a LeBeau disciple), or he has used the 4-3 in the past, as well? Of course, he could always adapt to his personnel, but I'd think the Bengals would hire someone (internally or externally) that has experience running what they run now.

[Benihana]

Hasn't Horton always run 3-4 defenses (which makes sense, given that he's a LeBeau disciple), or he has used the 4-3 in the past, as well? Of course, he could always adapt to his personnel, but I'd think the Bengals would hire someone (internally or externally) that has experience running what they run now.

Ironically they're saying if Zimmer gets the Vikings job, he'll keep the 3-4 they have in place. I guess good DC's can adapt and be versatile.

[Yachtzee]

Ironically they're saying if Zimmer gets the Vikings job, he'll keep the 3-4 they have in place. I guess good DC's can adapt and be versatile.

He's coached both configurations in the past.

[Stray]

I'm happy that zim finally got a head coaching job.

[redsfan30]

It's official. Mike Zimmer to Minnesota.

Good for him.

Horrible for us.

[top6]

At this point, I'm just happy he got the job. He clearly deserved it.

All that said, it is somewhat amusing how Marvin Lewis gets absolutely no credit from fans for how the defense has performed over the past few years. I think Zimmer is a great coordinator and will be a great coach, but I suspect the drop off will not be as steep as people think.

[traderumor]

So Marvin is hiring assistants that are head coach material. Keep up the good work.

[Kingspoint]

At this point, I'm just happy he got the job. He clearly deserved it.

All that said, it is somewhat amusing how Marvin Lewis gets absolutely no credit from fans for how the defense has performed over the past few years. I think Zimmer is a great coordinator and will be a great coach, but I suspect the drop off will not be as steep as people think.

Marvin Lewis doesn't get any credit because he deserves absolutely no credit for it.

Lewis is a tool. He's a terrible Head Coach. When his teams win, it's in spite of him.

Hiring Zimmer was a no-brainer. Marvin Lewis didn't hire him. Mike Brown did.

[Kingspoint]

So Marvin is hiring assistants that are head coach material. Keep up the good work.

Lewis didn't hire him. Mike Brown hired Zimmer.

[Kingspoint]

They are partying in Minnesota right now. The fans are ecstatic having Zimmer as their new Head Coach.

[Redsfaithful]

I don't know about none. He didn't go out and get Burfict? He doesn't make draft decisions on guys like Atkins, Dunlap, Johnson, Hall?

[Sea Ray]

They are partying in Minnesota right now. The fans are ecstatic having Zimmer as their new Head Coach.

I think Minnesota got a great guy but it remains to be seen if he'll turn into a great head coach. He could be this generation's Buddy Ryan. As a Bengal fan, I'd take my chances with him as our head coach

[MWM]

Happy for him, but really bummed. Has there ever been a coach in Cincinnati more universally loved than Zimmer? I'm kind of envious of MN. I'm actually a Marvin Lewis fan and I do think he will win in the playoffs at some point, whether it be in Cincy or someone else. But I think Zimmer could wind up being one of those elite coaches for years to come.

Of course, it's entirely possible he's a total flop as a HC and goes the way of Dick Lebeau. I know Parcells sees him as the guy other than Belichick who is most in the Parcells mold and has be touting him as a ND for a while now. We'll see. I'd be happy if I'm a Viking fan right now....especially if they get Norv Turner for the offense as is rumored.

[Kingspoint]

I don't know about none. He didn't go out and get Burfict? He doesn't make draft decisions on guys like Atkins, Dunlap, Johnson, Hall?

No. He does not make draft decisions on guys like Atkins, Dunlap, Johnson and Hall.

Hall was a no-brainer. 99% of America knew the Bengals had to and would draft Hall.

Dunlap was a Mike Brown pick. He loves first round grades that fall to the second round.

Atkins was all Vince Tobin.


The strengths of the Bengals do not include Marvin Lewis. He is a weak link.

The strengths for the last six seasons has been:

A: Mike Brown and the changes he's made in his approach to the franchise.

B: Mike Zimmer...hiring him was the best decision Mike Brown ever made.

C: Vince Tobin...an outstanding scout who did wonders when the staff was just him and two others. When he was made Head of Scouting and given two more scouts to work with, the drafts of the Bengals became solid.

D: Mike Brown again. His trade of Carson Palmer, doubling of the scouting department, securing of players like Atkins, Hall (a few years ago), Dunlap, and Andre Smith, along with some good pickups (though cheap they were) in free agency, have built the Bengals into one of the deepest teams in the league as far as talent goes. There's quite a bit more that Mike Brown has done...setting up Hue Jackson two years ago with the club, knowing the day would come for him to be the OC, while wisely choosing Dunlap over MJ as the DE to keep long-term. (MJ really fell off this season, even though it was a contract year.)

As far as Burfict goes, Marvin Lewis declared publicly that he didn't want on the team another player with questionable background, and that he was tired of dealing with them. I know his relationship with Burfict has been publicized, too, but Marvin was adamant publicly about his disdain for projects.

[Kingspoint]

Don't get me wrong about Marvin Lewis. He's light years better than what he used to be, but he's still the weakest link on the team. When it comes to coaches, management, and scouting, he's it's worst asset. Thankfully, he's much better than he used to be. He's better at getting out of the way and letting people do his job (which is why everyone thinks he'd be the perfect GM for Mike Brown).

Hue Jackson is a huge upgrade over Brat and an upgrade over Gruden. So, if we're talking about how much we'll drop as a team without Zimmer, I think we make up for it on Offense with Jackson. The team scored almost 27 points per game last year...the most under the Marvin Lewis era, I believe. No reason to believe that they won't be better, but more importantly, more consistent.

Not having Zimmer will be a dropoff, but either Guenther or Ray Horton (if they Bengals could get him) will do a good job with this Defense.

[Tom Servo]

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
Bengals are promoting Paul Guenther to DC to replace Mike Zimmer, per source.

[LoganBuck]

Lewis didn't hire him. Mike Brown hired Zimmer.

Mike Brown is now an excellent GM!

[Sea Ray]

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
Bengals are promoting Paul Guenther to DC to replace Mike Zimmer, per source.

That'd be huge. Lap was on WLW saying that Guenther was "in the catbird" seat because he had his choice of 3 teams (Bengals, Redskins, Minny)

[medford]

^^^

depending on how his contract is worded, if the Bengals are offering him the DC position, he may have had little choice, other than forcing the issue similar to what Bill Belicheck did someyears ago when the Jets promoted him to head coach, but he really wanted the New England gig.

Generally speaking, in the NFL, you can't hire a coach away from another franchise for the same role in yours (ie head coach to head coach, coordinator to coordinator, position coach to position coach), you have to be hiring them to an "upgraded" coaching role if they are under contract. Paul Gunher is under contract for next season, but he'd have to have an escape clause written into his deal for just this type of scenerio to allow him out of his promotion w/ the bengals and to sign on as DC elsewhere.

On top of that, even if he does have the choice, Mike Brown is pretty loyal to his coaches/players, and will most likely look to promote from w/n if he decides to move from Marvin Lewis at some point and hire from with in, so he's probably in a better spot to be promoted to a head coach by staying with the Bengals than moving to Minny to work under Zimmer (the obvious perception is that any improvements to their defense over the next couple of seasons will be directly corralted to Zimmer more than whomever he hires as a DC). He also has a lot more talent to work with in Cincy on the defensive side of the football than he would in Washington or Minnesota (though Minny is significantly more talented on that side of the ball than Washington, but not as strong as the Bengals defensive core)

[top6]

Marvin Lewis doesn't get any credit because he deserves absolutely no credit for it.

Lewis is a tool. He's a terrible Head Coach. When his teams win, it's in spite of him.

Hiring Zimmer was a no-brainer. Marvin Lewis didn't hire him. Mike Brown did.

Well unlike you I am not privileged to have personal knowledge about the inner workings of the Bengals and who makes every personnel and other decisions, so I can't really say who should get credit for the things that have gone well. I would think the head coach is in charge and deserves some credit, but as you seem to know who made each and every decision over the last several years I will defer to you.

It does seem odd that Zimmer did everything right here, and Lewis should receive no credit. Just looking at history, Lewis was the defensive coordinator of probably the greatest defense of all time and which excelled in the post season. Zimmer's defenses were pretty mediocre and/or bad in Dallas and Atlanta, and they never won a postseason game. His defenses here--i.e., once he started working under Lewis--have been pretty great, but he still has not won a postseason game as a coordinator.

I do love Zimmer though and he absolutely deserves this chance.

[Kingspoint]

Congratulations to Paul Guenther and to Mike Brown for keeping both Minnesota and Washington from getting him.

Continuity for this group is important. Leon Hall explains it a bit through Hobson....

"Same system, same guys. On paper it sounds good," Hall said. "But it will definitely be different. We have to work harder, study harder, and we really have to play better. You're not going to have him in your ear with his play calls at certain times. We definitely have to work harder.

"You can't replace him. You can run his defense if you want. Keep his calls and second-guess what calls he would have made in certain situations. But you can't replace him. His calls he made in certain situations were great. The impact he had on the guys was really impressive. Replace him? No. But I like to think we can keep things going. We have enough good players in here that played under him for a while. Hopefully we have the discipline to keep his legacy going."

Defensive end Robert Geathers, who along with Hall and tackle Domata Peko are the only pre-Zimmer defenders on the club, thought along the same lines earlier in the week when asked about the possibility of Zimmer leaving.

"We would definitely miss him. He's a motivator and guys love to play for him," Geathers said. "But no one in that room is looking to go backwards. He made us believe in ourselves. It's not like we haven't been good. We know how we got there: hard work, consistency. Doing the little things. We have the foundation."

[Kingspoint]

It does seem odd that Zimmer did everything right here, and Lewis should receive no credit. Just looking at history, Lewis was the defensive coordinator of probably the greatest defense of all time and which excelled in the post season. Zimmer's defenses were pretty mediocre and/or bad in Dallas and Atlanta, and they never won a postseason game. His defenses here--i.e., once he started working under Lewis--have been pretty great, but he still has not won a postseason game as a coordinator.

I do love Zimmer though and he absolutely deserves this chance.

Zimmer's Defenses were excellent everywhere he's been....from Washington State to Atlanta to Dallas to Cincinnati. Don't know how you can say otherwise and say it with a straight face.

Have I ever mentioned Marvin Lewis' ability to be a Defensive Coordinator? I didn't think so. I mentioned Marvin Lewis' ability as a Head Coach. But, since you brought up his DC experience in Baltimore, you might have noticed this...Baltimore had no problem sustaining as good of a Defense once he left Baltimore. It's as if he wasn't even there.

As far as who was responsible for the drafting of certain players, it's not that hard to figure out given the personalities of those involved, statements made by all parties, and history of events.

[Kingspoint]

Mike Brown is now an excellent GM!

Those who can't see that Mike Brown has done very well the last several years and that he's changed little by little over the years and does most things differently than he used to do them isn't paying attention at all. They are letting past behavior of Mike Brown to distort their reasoning of what Mike Brown has done over the years.

Mike Brown can get all the blame in the world for this franchise to not win a playoff game over the last 23 years, but he also needs to receive credit for the changes he's made over the last dozen seasons.

It would take a novel to write about all of the changes he's made as it covers a dozen years.

I'm happy with him as an owner and have been for several seasons to where I almost stopped being a Bengals' fan the day Paul Brown died because I feared for the future of the franchise under Mike Brown.

[Kingspoint]

Where are you hearing that he's definitely going to the Vikings? All I'm seeing elsewhere is that he's one of 3 finalists.

I gleened it from the information that was out there.

[Kingspoint]

...His defenses here--i.e., once he started working under Lewis--have been pretty great,...

From Chris Crocker via Hobson....

Perhaps it was Crocker that summed it up best when he said Wednesday, "Before he got there, Cincinnati wasn't known for defense. Now it is. I don't know what Cincinnati is going to look like now without him."

[traderumor]

Marvin Lewis doesn't get any credit because he deserves absolutely no credit for it.

Lewis is a tool. He's a terrible Head Coach. When his teams win, it's in spite of him.

Hiring Zimmer was a no-brainer. Marvin Lewis didn't hire him. Mike Brown did.It is hard to take an opinion seriously that is so dismissive and extreme.

[Kingspoint]

It is hard to take an opinion seriously that is so dismissive and extreme.

"I don't pay attention to any numbers, ... Numbers are not how you play football. We made a decision to keep Craig. Casey did a good job. It was a very, very close call, and we kept Craig."

"We have to win football games. I don't think Carson has to do anything different. The rest of us have to keep playing and coaching better. He's so, so talented. As I keep saying from the day he walked in here, the guy, no matter what he touches, he can turn it to gold."

"I'm happy with where we are. We're in a situation where we don't have a void anywhere in players. We continue to cycle through the players from old to young. We continue with the development of our guys and go through it that way."

"From what everybody tells me, I guess this year is supposed to be pivotal."

"One player doesn't make a difference. The tendency you get -- the public furor that one person or one thing will make a big difference. I think that's been proven (false) over time."

"Carson is our offense. When our (offensive coaches) get together Monday evening to begin to put together the plan, we do things that we feel Carson is going to be extremely comfortable with."

"Unfortunately, we had somebody else who was more selfish than Chad. That person won't be with us next year, I'll tell you that. Those people aren't good for you."

"We're going to learn from the whole getting there (to the playoffs), and then what happened. It was inevitable. And we didn't deal with (the attention) as well as I thought we would. It just shows our lack of maturity and experience. We made the playoffs. Now we have to win a playoff game."

[New York Red]

I always hoped we'd at least win one playoff game before the rest of the league started poaching our coaching staff. Oh well ... life as a Bengals fan.

[redhawkfish]

Not a Bengals fan at all, but having other teams want both your offensive and defensive coordinators as head coaches is very impressive!

[Benihana]

Kiper's first mock draft out means the official start of draft season. My wish list for this Bengals draft:

Round 1 (pick 24)
1. Justin Gilbert CB Oklahoma St
2. Darqueze Dennard CB Mich St (Kiper's pick)
3. Taylor Lewan OT Michigan

Round 2
1. Best QB Available - likely Derek Carr or Zack Mettenberger
2. Carlos Hyde RB Ohio St
3. If they don't draft a CB in the first, best CB available - likely either of the Florida CB (Purifoy or Roberson)

Round 3
1. Best C, OLB or SS available

Round 4
1. Best RB or G available

[traderumor]

"I don't pay attention to any numbers, ... Numbers are not how you play football. We made a decision to keep Craig. Casey did a good job. It was a very, very close call, and we kept Craig."

"We have to win football games. I don't think Carson has to do anything different. The rest of us have to keep playing and coaching better. He's so, so talented. As I keep saying from the day he walked in here, the guy, no matter what he touches, he can turn it to gold."

"I'm happy with where we are. We're in a situation where we don't have a void anywhere in players. We continue to cycle through the players from old to young. We continue with the development of our guys and go through it that way."

"From what everybody tells me, I guess this year is supposed to be pivotal."

"One player doesn't make a difference. The tendency you get -- the public furor that one person or one thing will make a big difference. I think that's been proven (false) over time."

"Carson is our offense. When our (offensive coaches) get together Monday evening to begin to put together the plan, we do things that we feel Carson is going to be extremely comfortable with."

"Unfortunately, we had somebody else who was more selfish than Chad. That person won't be with us next year, I'll tell you that. Those people aren't good for you."

"We're going to learn from the whole getting there (to the playoffs), and then what happened. It was inevitable. And we didn't deal with (the attention) as well as I thought we would. It just shows our lack of maturity and experience. We made the playoffs. Now we have to win a playoff game."Not sure what point you think this collection of quotes makes. Ever heard of context?

[KoryMac5]

Kiper's first mock draft out means the official start of draft season. My wish list for this Bengals draft:

Round 1 (pick 24)
1. Justin Gilbert CB Oklahoma St
2. Darqueze Dennard CB Mich St (Kiper's pick)
3. Taylor Lewan OT Michigan

Round 2
1. Best QB Available - likely Derek Carr or Zack Mettenberger
2. Carlos Hyde RB Ohio St
3. If they don't draft a CB in the first, best CB available - likely either of the Florida CB (Purifoy or Roberson)

Round 3
1. Best C, OLB or SS available

Round 4
1. Best RB or G available

Corner is huge as Newman is getting long in the tooth and Hall has injury issues.

Hyde would be one to watch as Mike Brown loves OSU players! Hyde and Gio would be a one two punch that Hue would drool over.

[bucksfan2]

Corner is huge as Newman is getting long in the tooth and Hall has injury issues.

Hyde would be one to watch as Mike Brown loves OSU players! Hyde and Gio would be a one two punch that Hue would drool over.

That is just wrong. There are currently two OSU players on the team, Nugent and Sanzenbacher. I would love to see Hyde and a compliment to Gio, but the "Brown loves Buckeyes" is a mischaracterization.

[wolfboy]

"I don't pay attention to any numbers, ... Numbers are not how you play football. We made a decision to keep Craig. Casey did a good job. It was a very, very close call, and we kept Craig."

"We have to win football games. I don't think Carson has to do anything different. The rest of us have to keep playing and coaching better. He's so, so talented. As I keep saying from the day he walked in here, the guy, no matter what he touches, he can turn it to gold."

"I'm happy with where we are. We're in a situation where we don't have a void anywhere in players. We continue to cycle through the players from old to young. We continue with the development of our guys and go through it that way."

"From what everybody tells me, I guess this year is supposed to be pivotal."

"One player doesn't make a difference. The tendency you get -- the public furor that one person or one thing will make a big difference. I think that's been proven (false) over time."

"Carson is our offense. When our (offensive coaches) get together Monday evening to begin to put together the plan, we do things that we feel Carson is going to be extremely comfortable with."

"Unfortunately, we had somebody else who was more selfish than Chad. That person won't be with us next year, I'll tell you that. Those people aren't good for you."

"We're going to learn from the whole getting there (to the playoffs), and then what happened. It was inevitable. And we didn't deal with (the attention) as well as I thought we would. It just shows our lack of maturity and experience. We made the playoffs. Now we have to win a playoff game."

Guy on message board with arsenal of quotes: 1
Guy with Super Bowl ring: 0

Your move Coach Lewis.

[MWM]

I just don't see Hyde being all that effective and NFL RB. I hope they do not use a pick on him.

[medford]

I'd be very happy with Dennard in the 1st round, as every notes, Newman is getting long in the tooth (but still producing), pacman is up & down, Hall is coming off injury and Kirkpatrick hasn't done anything to prove he's worthy of his 1st round pick yet (at least in games, coaches would have a good feel of what he's done in practice and how much they can depend on him)

I'd love Hyde as well, I'm thinking he slips into the 3rd as running back has been so de-emphasised in the draft. Hyde has the vision and churn that BJGE gives you, with a little more burst and size. He won't be the lightening bolt that Gio is, but they'd make a solid combination. In the 2nd round, I'd take an interior offensive lineman, unless they decided to resign Collins and move Whitworth inside to gaurd. if that were the case, I'd be looking at OLB or Safety, then go OL or QB in the 4th.

[Kingspoint]

That is just wrong. There are currently two OSU players on the team, Nugent and Sanzenbacher. I would love to see Hyde and a compliment to Gio, but the "Brown loves Buckeyes" is a mischaracterization.

Not advocating for Kiper or anything (he's a fool), but on Kiper's first mock draft he has the Bengals taking a CB, followed immediately by two Ohio State players for the next two picks of the first round, one a CB, and the other a RB.

Just thought it was interesting.

[Redsfaithful]

I just don't see Hyde being all that effective and NFL RB. I hope they do not use a pick on him.

Really? He's so strong, which is why I think he'd pair well with Gio.