2014 Bengals Discussion, Part 2

[Assembly Hall]

Every year the Pats look unbeatable this time of year. And more often than not, they get bounced. Don't know how or if this could play out, but I could see the Steelers taking the Pats out at their field...than of course the Bengals taking out the Steelers in the AFC Championship. ;)

The Pats just aint the same team from Brady's early years. The scheme is completely different. But once again, I think it is wide open in the AFC.

[RedEye]

Yeah, and I would throw Dallas into that mix myself.

Cowboys have looked surprisingly good, yes. I guess I am still just skeptical due to their track record with Romo -- but that isn't really a rationally based view.

[Big Red Smokey]

Cowboys have looked surprisingly good, yes. I guess I am still just skeptical due to their track record with Romo -- but that isn't really a rationally based view.

Easiest schedule in the league this year, amazingly enough

[GAC]

The Bengals may not HAVE to win this game..... but, IMO ...... they NEED to win this game. Lets not get lackadaisical Bengal fans, as if this game may be insignificant, or it doesn't matter if you lose, because you've already clinched a play-off spot.

#1 - you need to carry that momentum into the post-season. Losing this game could possibly lead to a "letdown" (emotionallylpsychologically).
#2 - you need to beat Pittsburgh, not only as repayment for the previous meeting, but to prove to themselves that they can do it. Because it's quite possible you could have to lock horns with this team again in the playoffs, and the Steelers have a proven track record once they make it into the post-season. So being 1-1 in your regular season match-ups versus 0-2 says a lot IMO (again see: emotional/psychological).

I was down at a Holiday family get-together yesterday watching college football, and was vastly out-numbered by Bengal fans. Only one of them thought the Bengals had a CHANCE of winning this game. I said otherwise.

GO BENGALS!!!!

[Stray]

Lets go Raiders!

[Assembly Hall]

Cowboys have looked surprisingly good, yes. I guess I am still just skeptical due to their track record with Romo -- but that isn't really a rationally based view.

As I said about the Patriots, the Cowboys look different this year. Statistically Romo has always had great numbers until you look at that W-L play-off record, or crunch-time.

[Assembly Hall]

Easiest schedule in the league this year, amazingly enough

That is pretty amazing......but teams you would think would be good at the start of the season don't always turn out to be good. I look at NFC South and shake my head.

[Sea Ray]

You can thank Andy for that play calling. If I'm a Bengals fan, I'd still be very worried about Dalton's play. The only positive to come out of this game is that they won (which is a big positive.) But Andy Dalton is the key to every thing. He should have every Bengals fans holding their breath every time he throws the ball. He was arguably worse than Peyton last night.

Dalton gets criticized a lot around here but let's look at this practically:

The Bengals needed a QB for obvious reasons 4 yrs ago. We now have the value of hindsight. Using that, who should the Bengals have drafted or acquired to QB this team? Don't waste our time saying Andrew Luck. He was never available.

1) Cutler? No way
2) Mallett? Perhaps as he was my choice on draft day but honestly, 4 yrs later he's more of a question mark than Dalton
3) Kaepernick? He regressing bigtime
4) Russell Wilson? It's never the Bengal way to draft a sub 6' QB. A lot of teams passed on him

Given our options, I think the Bengals did as well as they possibly could. There just aren't enough top notch QB guys out there

[Sea Ray]

Easiest schedule in the league this year, amazingly enough

I don't know if that's true but I do know that they beat the best team in the league on the road (Seattle)

[Assembly Hall]

Dalton gets criticized a lot around here but let's look at this practically:

The Bengals needed a QB for obvious reasons 4 yrs ago. We now have the value of hindsight. Using that, who should the Bengals have drafted or acquired to QB this team? Don't waste our time saying Andrew Luck. He was never available.

1) Cutler? No way
2) Mallett? Perhaps as he was my choice on draft day but honestly, 4 yrs later he's more of a question mark than Dalton
3) Kaepernick? He regressing bigtime
4) Russell Wilson? It's never the Bengal way to draft a sub 6' QB. A lot of teams passed on him

Given our options, I think the Bengals did as well as they possibly could. There just aren't enough top notch QB guys out there

Great post.

I will say that Russell Wilson just fell into a perfect situation for him and that is why all the hoopla about him now. But there is the secret........some teams don't need a HOF QB to win the Super Bowl. Guys like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Mark Rypien come to mind.

[Assembly Hall]

I don't know if that's true but I do know that they beat the best team in the league on the road (Seattle)


That is subjective. The 'Boys caught Seattle when they were in what appeared to be a funk. As Marty says....."It's not who you play, it is when you play them"! But I surmise the combined W-L records of Dallas' opponents is what is being alluded to. But the schedule is the schedule.

[Sea Ray]

That is subjective. The 'Boys caught Seattle when they were in what appeared to be a funk. As Marty says....."It's not who you play, it is when you play them"! But I surmise the combined W-L records of Dallas' opponents is what is being alluded to. But the schedule is the schedule.

It is subjective. If you disagree, please tell me who you think is better. I would argue that no game is harder to win than a visiting team in Seattle

[Sea Ray]

Great post.

I will say that Russell Wilson just fell into a perfect situation for him and that is why all the hoopla about him now. But there is the secret........some teams don't need a HOF QB to win the Super Bowl. Guys like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Mark Rypien come to mind.

I agree on RW. It's not really about who needs a HOF QB. It's about how to get one. My point is that IMO the Bengals got the best one available to them in the last 4 yrs. If there was a better choice out there, I'd like to discuss it

[Assembly Hall]

It is subjective. If you disagree, please tell me who you think is better. I would argue that no game is harder to win than a visiting team in Seattle

I don't disagree with you at all. I was just saying that Seattle didn't look like their normal selves early on. I wouldn't want to play the 'Hawks home or away right now.

[Assembly Hall]

I agree on RW. It's not really about who needs a HOF QB. It's about how to get one. My point is that IMO the Bengals got the best one available to them in the last 4 yrs. If there was a better choice out there, I'd like to discuss it

I concur.

[Sea Ray]

I don't disagree with you at all. I was just saying that Seattle didn't look like their normal selves early on. I wouldn't want to play the 'Hawks home or away right now.

I concur as well. In the NFL "the team" you play today is often not the team it was 8 weeks ago. Due in large part to injuries , that's life in the NFL. But Dallas need not apologize. They have no control over their schedule

[Stray]

Looks like it'll be Baltimore getting in. Can't believe the Chargers couldn't beat the Chiefs with their backup QB and the playoffs on the line.

[Assembly Hall]

Looks like it'll be Baltimore getting in. Can't believe the Chargers couldn't beat the Chiefs with their backup QB and the playoffs on the line.

Typical San Diego antics with Rivers taking the snaps. Just sayin'

[Sea Ray]

I'm torn about tonight's game. I don't like facing AFC North teams three times. I wanted SD

[Assembly Hall]

I concur as well. In the NFL "the team" you play today is often not the team it was 8 weeks ago. Due in large part to injuries , that's life in the NFL. But Dallas need not apologize. They have no control over their schedule

Back in the day there was an unbalanced schedule. Not true any more. The key is to win your division.......and minus 2 games every one in any given division, plays the same schedule. Dallas played who they were set to play.

[Assembly Hall]

I'm torn about tonight's game. I don't like facing AFC North teams three times. I wanted SD

If the Bengals win and Denver loses...don't they get the #2 seed?

[Sea Ray]

If the Bengals win and Denver loses...don't they get the #2 seed?

You bet. That'd be ideal. We should all be big Raider fans today...but I'm not getting my hopes up

[Sea Ray]

Is it now safe to say that the tie with Carolina will not have an effect on our seeding? It seems to me that the tie ended up having no ramifications but I may be missing something.

[Boss-Hog]

Is it now safe to say that the tie with Carolina will not have an effect on our seeding? It seems to me that the tie ended up having no ramifications but I may be missing something.

I believe that had they won against Carolina, a win tonight would've made them the #2 seed.

[The Operator]

I believe that had they won against Carolina, a win tonight would've made them the #2 seed.Indeed. A win against Carolina and a win tonight would have put us at 12-4, same record as Denver and we would've held the tie breaker.

[The Operator]

I love NBC trying to hype up the fact that Roethlisberger had a sore tummy before the game.

"zOMG Ben Roethlisberger might be dead! And if he's alive, can he even play?!?""

Five minutes later...

"And THERE he is - the warrior! Battling SARS, Yellow Fever, The Black Plague and any number of venereal diseases and he's gonna make his 158th start. HOLY MOLY what a competitor!"

[JayBruceFan]

He got a boom boom in his tum tum

[The Operator]

Well, special teams sucks so far.

[The Operator]

Oh good. Jeremy Hill moves us up the field and Andy throws an INT.

[RedEye]

I guess they have to battle back again. To be fair, that INT looked like it was on AJ...

[Stray]

Yeah looked like AJ quit on a hitch and go for whatever reason.

Like the way this game is playing out tho. Defense is playing well.

[The Operator]

I guess they have to battle back again. To be fair, that INT looked like it was on AJ...True, looking back he flat out quit on that route.

[Joseph]

There's another INT. High throw from Dalton

[The Operator]

*That* INT was 100% on Dalton. Good lord.

[Stray]

I honestly can't remember the last accurate down the field throw Dalton made. If he's not hurt, I have no idea what his problem is. He's usually been pretty accurate in that range and now all of a sudden the passes are all high.

[Redhook]

I honestly can't remember the last accurate down the field throw Dalton made. If he's not hurt, I have no idea what his problem is. He's usually been pretty accurate in that range and now all of a sudden the passes are all high.

He really shouldn't be allowed to throw any pass over 10 yards right now. He's that bad. I cringe every time he's not handing the ball off. It's too bad really because this team is playing pretty well in spite the horrendous play from dalton.

[George Foster]

He really shouldn't be allowed to throw any pass over 10 yards right now. He's that bad. I cringe every time he's not handing the ball off. It's too bad really because this team is playing pretty well in spite the horrendous play from dalton.

When are we as Bengals fans going to except the fact that Dalton is never going to be any better than he is. He has never had a good game when it really counted. Last week Payton helped us more than Dalton...he had a pick 6 in that game, his numbers were very average as well.

[The Operator]

Here comes a 2-minute drive to put us down by two scores.

Lord knows you're not allowed to play defense if it's under two minutes.

[RedEye]

He really shouldn't be allowed to throw any pass over 10 yards right now. He's that bad. I cringe every time he's not handing the ball off. It's too bad really because this team is playing pretty well in spite the horrendous play from dalton.

Right where I am right now, too. With good QB play they would be a legit playoff threat. Without it, they look like another one and done. Hope I'm wrong.

[Redhook]

When are we as Bengals fans going to except the fact that Dalton is never going to be any better than he is. He has never had a good game when it really counted. Last week Payton helped us more than Dalton...he had a pick 6 in that game, his numbers were very average as well.

I think we've all accepted he'll never be great. The problem is he's regressing. Quickly. This team would be great if it had any of the previous Dalton versions.

[Joseph]

So we started the day with an outside shot at the #2 seed and now we are what, 5?

[Stray]

When are we as Bengals fans going to except the fact that Dalton is never going to be any better than he is. He has never had a good game when it really counted. Last week Payton helped us more than Dalton...he had a pick 6 in that game, his numbers were very average as well.

The thing is tho, he was better than this for his first 3 years in the league. He can be better because he has been better. Something isn't right the 2nd half of this year, none of his non dump off passes are even close.

[George Foster]

Right where I am right now, too. With good QB play they would be a legit playoff threat. Without it, they look like another one and done. Hope I'm wrong.

your not wrong. Good QB play in the playoffs is as essential as a water for life.

[The Operator]

Roethlisberger is getting aaallll daayyy to throw. That can't continue in the 2nd half if they want a chance.

[dabvu2498]

Collinsworth is right about one thing... If they can't rush the passer any better, it won't matter anyway.

Also, and someone mentioned this last week... Is Sanu completely invisible???

[Stray]

Wonder what Sanu has to do to remind everyone he's still on the team.

[RedEye]

I'm confused -- Why wasn't the clock stopped when Bernard got knocked out of bounds right before the half?

[dabvu2498]

I'm confused -- Why wasn't the clock stopped when Bernard got knocked out of bounds?

He'd stopped his forward progress.

[The Operator]

I'm confused -- Why wasn't the clock stopped when Bernard got knocked out of bounds?Pittsburgh refs, Pittsburgh rules. C'mon now, you know that. :p

[George Foster]

Wonder what Sanu has to do to remind everyone he's still on the team.

Well....you have to have a QB that will go through his progressions. I mean it's either a screen pass to a RB, or a pass to Green. Not that complicated to defend either.

[RedEye]

He'd stopped his forward progress.

Really? Seemed like he was already out when that happened.

[Stray]

Just trying to think back.. Has Dalton made any good throws since that hit to the chest that knocked him out of the game?

I know after the first Cleveland game he bounced back and played well for a little while. But this is now quite a few games in a row of bad to mediocre play.

There has to be a reason we don't know about. If not, and Dalton really can't make accurate 10 yard throws, yikes...

- - - Updated - - -


Well....you have to have a QB that will go through his progressions. I mean it's either a screen pass to a RB, or a pass to Green. Not that complicated to defend either.

We're not exactly calling plays to get Sanu involved either. There are lots of ways Hue could get him into the game.

[RedEye]

Well....you have to have a QB that will go through his progressions. I mean it's either a screen pass to a RB, or a pass to Green. Not that complicated to defend either.

Seriously. The QB has really started to regress. I really wonder what internal conversations the coaches are having about this.

[top6]

Wonder what Sanu has to do to remind everyone he's still on the team.

Stop dropping passes?

[Dom Heffner]

Ben hasn't gotten it this easy since he was in a restroom in Georgia.

[RedEye]

Just trying to think back.. Has Dalton made any good throws since that hit to the chest that knocked him out of the game?

I know after the first Cleveland game he bounced back and played well for a little while. But this is now quite a few games in a row of bad to mediocre play.

There has to be a reason we don't know about. If not, and Dalton really can't make accurate 10 yard throws, yikes...

- - - Updated - - -
We're not exactly calling plays to get Sanu involved either. There are lots of ways Hue could get him into the game.

Sanu has had some key drops lately. Maybe he should play QB instead?

Seriously though, I agree about Dalton. He just looks off. I have less confidence in him right now than I have ever had.

[George Foster]

That QB in Eugene is looking pretty good right now:)

[RedEye]

That QB in Eugene is looking pretty good right now:)

No way he drops that far though, right? And I think Andy gets through next season to prove / disprove himself. That's how the contract is written anyway.

[George Foster]

Ben hasn't gotten it this easy since he was in a restroom in Georgia.

Dom...if you did not steal that line....if it was original....I nominate it for post of the year in the Tavern!!!! Well done sir!!

[Stray]

Sanu has had some key drops lately. Maybe he should play QB instead?

He's always had a drops problem, but if they think it's bad enough that he shouldn't get passes thrown his way then they should start someone else. I don't think it's that so much as it's Dalton and Hue trying to overuse Green.

[RedEye]

If the D doesn't figure out how to get some pressure on Ben, this is going to be a blowout by the end of the 3rd quarter.

[George Foster]

Seriously. The
QB has really started to regress. I really wonder what internal conversations the coaches are having about this.

We are stuck with the red head....have you seen his contract? Brown ain't eating it..

[RedEye]

He's always had a drops problem, but if they think it's bad enough that he shouldn't get passes thrown his way then they should start someone else. I don't think it's that so much as it's Dalton and Hue trying to overuse Green.

No, I agree. I was grasping at straws.

[RedEye]

We are stuck with the red head....have you seen his contract? Brown ain't eating it..

But only guaranteed through next year, right?

[RiverRat13]

But only guaranteed through next year, right?

Yep. He'll be very easy to cut after next year as far as the cap. I doubt the Bengals do it, though.

[Stray]

Well well well look who it is

[George Foster]

Yep. He'll be very easy to cut after next year as far as the cap. I doubt the Bengals do it, though.
I think he would be very tradable after this year. Arizona? Tampa? We are all baseball fans, we know pitching. We all know when we have seen what a kid has to offer after so many years in MLB. It's the same thing. Dalton is a 12-12 starter with a 4.25 ERA. Nothing special, not a game changer. He is not going to ever be much better. You are what the back of your baseball card (or football) card says you are....

[Yachtzee]

Guenther seems to be calling a fairly vanilla defense so far. A lot of straight 4 man rushes. Would rather see them go after Roethlisberger and force him to make mistakes.

[Stray]

I think he would be very tradable after this year. Arizona? Tampa? We are all baseball fans, we know pitching. We all know when we have seen what a kid has to offer after so many years in MLB. It's the same thing. Dalton is a 12-12 starter with a 4.25 ERA. Nothing special, not a game changer. He is not going to ever be much better. You are what the back of your baseball card (or football) card says you are....

Lets not get crazy here. While we can definitely do better than Dalton, it'd be a lot easier to do worse. We're 10-4-1, he should be our QB until there's a better option available to us.

[The Operator]

This offense is just painful to watch.

[RedTeamGo!]

So obvious Nugent was going to miss that field goal

[Stray]

Gotta think the chances of picking up 4th and 4 are better than making a 50 yarder in Heinz.

[George Foster]

Gotta think the chances of picking up 4th and 4 are better than making a 50 yarder in Heinz.
that is a very good point.

[Roy Tucker]

Dalton has plain old lost his accuracy. I don't know if it's an injury or the yips or what. But he does suck.

[George Foster]

another 3 and out...receivers open...

[The Operator]

Not much of a punt their from our Pro-Bowler.

[Assembly Hall]

No way he drops that far though, right? And I think Andy gets through next season to prove / disprove himself. That's how the contract is written anyway.

No way. But that idiot from FSU might??????

[George Foster]

No way. But that idiot FSU might??????

can u imagine him with a pocket full of money? scary:yikes:

[The Operator]

can u imagine him with a pocket full of money? scary:yikes:He'll make Roethlisberger look like a choir boy.

[George Foster]

He'll make Roethlisberger look like a choir boy.

Have you heard Ben sing, "Georgia on my mind?"......the girls love it.

[The Operator]

How do blocks in the back by both teams and then an unnecessary roughness by Pittsburgh on that INT end up offsetting?

[George Foster]

How do blocks in the back by both teams and then an unnecessary roughness by Pittsburgh on that INT end up offsetting? I agree...with that logic, We can hit them 5-6 times and as long as they hit us back once they off-set.

[Stray]

Dalton looks a lot more comfortable in a hurry up offense where he's calling the plays.

[dabvu2498]

Competent Dalton has made an appearance.

[Stray]

Really hope that's a cramp for Gresh

[dabvu2498]

Really hope that's a cramp for Gresh

Don't worry... Eifert will be back after the bye. ;)

[Stray]

Competent Dalton has made an appearance.

Win or lose, that's a good sign. Something positive for him heading into the playoffs.

[The Operator]

Le'Veon Bell is apparently questionable to return to this game.

Outside of Roethlisberger, no other current Steeler has carried the ball more than 9 times this season. I know the guy is great but good lord have they ridden him hard.

[Assembly Hall]

can u imagine him with a pocket full of money? scary:yikes:

LMAO..........Put him in Cincy and him and Johnny Football can hook up on Friday nights.

[Assembly Hall]

How do blocks in the back by both teams and then an unnecessary roughness by Pittsburgh on that INT end up offsetting?

I think they got that one wrong.

[Stray]

Lol really Mike Tomlin? That's an awful call.

Just flat go for it if you don't wanna punt. Roethlisberger with all day to throw is better than whatever that was.

[The Operator]

Why does anyone ever intercept a fake punt?

Just bat it down unless you've got a guaranteed pick 6.

[Assembly Hall]

Well that was a horrible play call by the Steelers.

[paintmered]

Put a guy in motion on a punt? Everybody in the stadium should have sniffed out that fake. :laugh:

[Assembly Hall]

Why does anyone ever intercept a fake punt?

Just bat it down unless you've got a guaranteed pick 6.

Just instinct I suppose.

[RiverRat13]

Don't worry... Eifert will be back after the bye. ;)

This is funny. It kind of makes me want to cry, but it is still funny.

[The Operator]

LOL, typical Bengals.

Moving the ball with a chance to win and cough the ball up.

[SteelSD]

Well that was a horrible play call by the Steelers.

Dear Bengals,

We would prefer to play the Colts.

Sincerely,

Mike Tomlin

----

Dear Coach Tomlin,

We would prefer you play the Ravens.

Best wishes,

A.J. Green

[Stray]

That was a really really good throw by Dalton. He knew he was gonna get hit and put it on the money. AJ fumbled and got hit in the head so that's not good, but more than anything I'm rooting for Dalton to finish this game well lol. Need him to be right next week more than we need a win tonight.

[WMR]

Bungles!!!!

Pathetic franchise.

Think Green injured his pride on that one.

[Assembly Hall]

LOL, typical Bengals.

Moving the ball with a chance to win and cough the ball up.


See ya in Indy next week!!!!!!! LOL

[dougdirt]

Think Green injured his pride on that one.
Check out the replay. He got absolutely obliterated.

[The Operator]

See ya in Indy next week!!!!!!! LOL
Can't go any worse than the first time around... I hope.

[WMR]

Check out the replay. He got absolutely obliterated.

Yeah, I'm just annoyed... he got creamed... still a weak ass fumble beforehand though.

[dabvu2498]

The Blake kid is pretty impressive for Pittsburgh.

[Stray]

Can't go any worse than the first time around... I hope.

We'd have to score negative points to go worse than last time haha

[WMR]

Bungles LOL.

Still get punked by Pittsburgh in the games that matter.

[The Operator]

Ballgame.

This game was so winnable. Makes me sick.

[Stray]

Meh I want Indy more than I want Baltimore for a 3rd time who is getting Ngata back.

We just gotta have good Andy next week or it doesn't matter.

[George Foster]

a microcosm of Bengals football

[Assembly Hall]

Can't go any worse than the first time around... I hope.

You would like to think it couldn't!!!!!!!!!!

[Stray]

Bungles LOL.

Still get punked by Pittsburgh in the games that matter.

Eh we went into Heinz and won the division a year or two ago. They're a better team than we are right now.

[The Operator]

You would like to think it couldn't!!!!!!!!!!I also got married the last time around.

At least this time I won't be paying for food for 150 people...

[SteelSD]

The best tackle attempt tonight on Antonio Brown was made by Martavis Bryant.

[Stray]

Indy is a team we can beat by running the ball. Baltimore is a team we'd have to beat throwing the ball.

We've been a good road team this year. Indy is the better matchup.

[WMR]

a microcosm of Bengals football

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/4131861/charlie-brown-football-kick-o.gif

[RiverRat13]

Eh we went into Heinz and won the division a year or two ago. They're a better team than we are right now.

Yeah, I think Pittsburgh is clearly the second best team in the AFC. The goal for the Bengals is to get that playoff win to finally get the monkey off of their backs. They aren't good enough to win in NE, Pitt or Denver with all of the injuries that have piled up.

[The Operator]

Marvin lets the clock run and run before finally calling a TO after that sack on Dalton.

Somebody needs to buy him a "Clock Management for Dummies" book.

[Stray]

10-5-1 with all the injuries is a really good year. Just win one playoff game and I'll be happy.

[Stray]

Also worth noting that we'll have an easier schedule next year since we didn't win our division.

[The Operator]

Chris Collinsworth looooves him some Black and Gold.

Sickening how much he gushes about them.

[RiverRat13]

Tomlin is a tool if he's complaining to Nelson about his hit on Bell.

[Hoosier Red]

Difference between playing NE and IND vs HOU and BUF. Boom

[Assembly Hall]

The Bengals were definitely in the position to win the game. That was a poor fumble by AJ....but c'est la vie. I was impressed with Dalton's performance in the second half. His throws were spot on. The play calling was also pretty dang good with mixing in the run.

[Assembly Hall]

Difference between playing NE and IND vs HOU and BUF. Boom


Houston and Buffalo were pretty good.

[Stray]

The Bengals were definitely in the position to win the game. That was a poor fumble by AJ....but c'est la vie. I was impressed with Dalton's performance in the second half. His throws were spot on. The play calling was also pretty dang good with mixing in the run.

It's so weird with Dalton. I'm nervous a lot of the times, but in those late game situations I believe he'll make that drive. Had Green not fumbled I believe Dalton takes us down for a touchdown.

[Hoosier Red]

Houston and Buffalo were pretty good.
Indeed. They're a decided step down from the division winners though.

[Assembly Hall]

It's so weird with Dalton. I'm nervous a lot of the times, but in those late game situations I believe he'll make that drive. Had Green not fumbled I believe Dalton takes us down for a touchdown.

I agree. Hell, at that point all you needed was a FG to tie the game.......either way the pressure would have been on the Steelers. All I can say is it was an entertaining game to watch.

[Assembly Hall]

Indeed. They're a decided step down from the division winners though.

Says who? Heck they could be better than the division winners next year. Just sayin

[Hoosier Red]

Says who? Heck they could be better than the division winners next year. Just sayin

Says me. And the standings. Not sure what the controversy is here.
They could be better. I have my doubts.

[Razor Shines]

Says who? Heck they could be better than the division winners next year. Just sayin

Hard to believe that. Both teams will still be lacking a QB next year.

[GAC]

I just hope AJ, who was diagnosed with a concussion, is able to play next week. Not good news for the Bengals if he can't.

OK - you got Indy away next Sunday. Please, and I'm serious, no repeat of the performance vs Indy in week #7. I don't think the Bengals will, and mainly because of the vast improvement of your running game w/ Hill. And Dalton? We'll just have to see. ;)

[Stray]

Shorten the game and limit possessions by running the ball all game. Indy is an undersized defense, if we play well they shouldn't be able to stop our running game.
On the other side they shouldn't be able to run the ball against us, and while Luck is very good, he's prone to a turnover here or there. Gotta catch it if he throws it to us.

Been a long time since the Bengals or Reds have advanced in the playoffs, think that changes next weekend.

[Hoosier Red]

I just hope AJ, who was diagnosed with a concussion, is able to play next week. Not good news for the Bengals if he can't.

OK - you got Indy away next Sunday. Please, and I'm serious, no repeat of the performance vs Indy in week #7. I don't think the Bengals will, and mainly because of the vast improvement of your running game w/ Hill. And Dalton? We'll just have to see. ;)

To be fair, the Indy game showed the downside of Dalton "not forcing" anything.
He certainly didn't play great, 18-38-126 yards. But if you're going to say you don't want the QB to kill the team, then you have to accept that you're going to have fewer big positive plays.

[MWM]

This team needs 2 new coordinators. Both are not very good. In the NFL, the coordinators are almost as important as the head coach, if not moreso. We saw what having a great coordinator can do with Zimmer. He's the first great coordinator the Bengals have had since the 80s. I can't remember a Bengals teams with a worse pass rush and so many wide open receivers. I think Guenther was in over his head. And I can't ever remember being so frustrated with a coordinator as a fan as I am with Hue Jackson. The Bengals have had some serious offensive talent in the Marvin Lewis era, but has never had a top tier coordinator. Gruden was decent, but far from great. Both guys need to be replaced, but I know that's not going to happen in the next couple of years.

Having said all that, I still have a hard time seeing them go all that far with Dalton as the QB.

[bucksfan2]

There is a lot of ax grinding about a team that went 10-5-1, has been to the playoffs 4 years in a row while playing in the toughest division in football. I wonder what it was like back when they really were terrible.

I think Hue is a good OC. I do think that he envisioned both Eifort and Jones playing a huge role with the Bengals this season. Injuries happen and you have to adapt, hence the move towards a more run forward offense.

I think Gunther was over his head at times this season. I was surprised that he went with 4 rushers pretty much the entire game yesterday night. As bad as it sounds I am surprised that had AJ held onto the ball the Bengals had a 1st down in Steeler territory with a chance to win under 4 minutes. I do wonder how much the loss of Burfict this season hurt Gunther and his play calling. IMO Burfict was the most important player on the defense.

Stupid bungles.

[Assembly Hall]

There is a lot of ax grinding about a team that went 10-5-1, has been to the playoffs 4 years in a row while playing in the toughest division in football. I wonder what it was like back when they really were terrible

I don't know if they were terrible. But that division was stout. The Steelers, Browns, Oilers(after Earl Campbell came along) were tough. But I always loved Kenny Anderson.

[Redsfaithful]

They held the Steelers offense to 20 points - the #2 offense in the NFL. Might have been enough to win without the AJ fumble.

One of the Steeler TDs was off of a short field after a turnover.

Guenther seemed to get better as the year went on, honestly. They just need more of a pass rush.

I'd go OL/DL in the first two rounds of the draft if they can get proper value (no reaching for position, but if it's there...)

[Assembly Hall]

Shorten the game and limit possessions by running the ball all game. Indy is an undersized defense, if we play well they shouldn't be able to stop our running game.
On the other side they shouldn't be able to run the ball against us, and while Luck is very good, he's prone to a turnover here or there. Gotta catch it if he throws it to us.

Been a long time since the Bengals or Reds have advanced in the playoffs, think that changes next weekend.


As was discussed in another thread here...Indy is an enigma. But that being said, Cincy has two guys to concentrate on besides Luck. Hilton and Fleener.

[Yachtzee]

Tomlin is a tool if he's complaining to Nelson about his hit on Bell.

So Tomlin is upset about the hit Nelson put on Bell? :rolleyes:

Carson Palmer, Keith Rivers, Kevin Huber. . . . The Steelers have a long history of severely injuring Bengals players with cheap shots, going all the way back to the '80s when Keith Gary tried to rip Ken Anderson's head off. Even in last night's game, there were a few plays where Steelers players appeared to launch themselves at Bengals players. It's to the point where I half expect at least one Bengals player to come away seriously injured playing the Steelers. In fact, it wouldn't suprise me if Mitchell was trying to ram Green with the crown of his helmet and just missed. Nelson's hit was legal, as was Mitchell's (barely). If Tomlin wants to complain about hits, he should look inward at his own team first.

[traderumor]

So Tomlin is upset about the hit Nelson put on Bell? :rolleyes:

Carson Palmer, Keith Rivers, Kevin Huber. . . . The Steelers have a long history of severely injuring Bengals players with cheap shots, going all the way back to the '80s when Keith Gary tried to rip Ken Anderson's head off. Even in last night's game, there were a few plays where Steelers players appeared to launch themselves at Bengals players. It's to the point where I half expect at least one Bengals player to come away seriously injured playing the Steelers. In fact, it wouldn't suprise me if Mitchell was trying to ram Green with the crown of his helmet and just missed. Nelson's hit was legal, as was Mitchell's (barely). If Tomlin wants to complain about hits, he should look inward at his own team first.We have a saying around these parts--the smeller's the feller.

[Kingspoint]

I just hope AJ, who was diagnosed with a concussion, is able to play next week. Not good news for the Bengals if he can't.

OK - you got Indy away next Sunday. Please, and I'm serious, no repeat of the performance vs Indy in week #7. I don't think the Bengals will, and mainly because of the vast improvement of your running game w/ Hill. And Dalton? We'll just have to see. ;)

The Bengals from Week 7 resembles nothing of the Bengals of right now. The Defense is completely different, as it the Offense.

[Kingspoint]

They held the Steelers offense to 20 points - the #2 offense in the NFL. Might have been enough to win without the AJ fumble.

One of the Steeler TDs was off of a short field after a turnover.

Guenther seemed to get better as the year went on, honestly. They just need more of a pass rush.

I'd go OL/DL in the first two rounds of the draft if they can get proper value (no reaching for position, but if it's there...)

Agree, except I don't think they need to go OL if they can ink Winston to a couple of years.

[Kingspoint]

Indy is a team we can beat by running the ball. Baltimore is a team we'd have to beat throwing the ball.

We've been a good road team this year. Indy is the better matchup.

In addition, that Indy's strength on Offense goes against our strength on Defense. Indy has zero running game, which has been our biggest weakness, even moreso than not putting pressure on the opposing QB.

[Kingspoint]

The Bengals were definitely in the position to win the game. That was a poor fumble by AJ....but c'est la vie. I was impressed with Dalton's performance in the second half. His throws were spot on. The play calling was also pretty dang good with mixing in the run.

Agree wholeheartedly. We'll beat Indy if we get a repeat performance (as long as Green isn't playing hurt, because he really sucks as a player when he's hurt....the effort's just not there...though it was much better in the second half after an obvious talking to by some coach at halftime).

[Kingspoint]

The thing is tho, he was better than this for his first 3 years in the league. He can be better because he has been better. Something isn't right the 2nd half of this year, none of his non dump off passes are even close.

I see players in every sport go through bad times that are related to a bad relationship at home, concern over an ill family member, etc., etc. Some are more effected than others by their emotions. Who here doesn't know about Votto? The Trailblazers have a player who wears his emotions on his sleeve in Batum. His game is constantly dictated by how he's feeling. And, then there's Hue Jackson's influence on Dalton.

[Assembly Hall]

As a Colts fan, I have enjoyed quite a bit of success these past few years. But the one thing that has always bothered me, more often than not, is they seem to take their foot off the gas pedal when things are "locked up" for the play-offs. Luckily this year they played a bad team on the road in the last game of the season. I do give Chuck credit for actually playing Luck and the other starters. I think they tanked it the game before against Dallas. My point being, how much wind did the Steelers loss take out of the Bengals sails? I dunno. They played to win and came up short, and I loved the effort.

[Kingspoint]

That is subjective. The 'Boys caught Seattle when they were in what appeared to be a funk. As Marty says....."It's not who you play, it is when you play them"! But I surmise the combined W-L records of Dallas' opponents is what is being alluded to. But the schedule is the schedule.

Not only were they in a funk, but they were missing three O-Linemen, while their Defense was at the beginning of a completely revamped unit.

[Stray]

Green was in street clothes today. Doesn't look great for his chances to play on Sunday.

[Kingspoint]

Green was in street clothes today. Doesn't look great for his chances to play on Sunday.

No. That was after a limited practice yesterday, though very limited as he was still in the concussion protocol. He's got a bad biceps, bad ribs, concussion, and he too often plays with apprehension when he's injured. I'd rather he not play until he's healthy. Can't have him cutting off routes, not fighting for the ball, and wasting opportunities. One play could decide the game, and if Green ends a drive or causes a turnover because he's not willing to go full bore on a play, whether that's blocking, running the full route, or something else, then I'd rather look somewhere else and have Hewitt, Gio, Sanu, Tate and Wright out there running routes. Gresham is still a question mark for the game. (change that...he got in a full practice today...must be gutting it out...we could use his blocking if we're going to run and run and run some more) At least Indy won't know where the ball is going this way. With Green out there, half of the targets are going his way...it's pretty easy to defend.

Hue has increased the targets of Gio each of the last three games, so I'm expecting more this time, too,...possibly double-digit targets for the first time in Gio's career. Hewitt had a couple last week and looked good with them. They have to find a way to get Sanu involved. He's too much of a play-maker not to get the touches. If Wright can get in the game, he's shown an ability to make big plays and get 1st Downs.

[Hoosier Red]

Something that's been gnawing at me recently.

Much has been made of Andy Dalton's poor showing in the playoffs. No need to rehash or defend them at all. But hearing Colts fans talking about it, you'd have thought Andrew Luck has been incredible throughout his playoff career and the Bengals are just another feather he'll collect in his cap.

For as good of a QB as everyone believe he is, he's been pretty awful in two playoff games, and was bad in one half before putting together a tremendous half of football to save the other.

THis isn't to say Dalton is Luck's equal, (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24931541/troy-brown-andrew-luck-is-no-better-than-andy-dalton) but the Bengals have ways to win so long as Dalton doesn't kill them.
If Luck is off his game, what exactly do the Colts go to?

[wheels]

Maybe it's better that Green won't play Sunday. Dalton seems to make a ton of bad throws in AJ's direction. He tries to force it in there.

It'll also force Hue to run it. I'd love it if Andy only had to throw 15 times. Just go in there and maul 'em on the ground. Even if they stack the box, a guy can bust a long if he wiggles free. Plus, Hewitt blowing 'em up...Pound the rock, boys.

[Kingspoint]

Colts are going to go to Dan Herron, something they haven't done all season. Richardson has been conveniently called "questionable". They didn't use Richardson in last year's playoffs. They realize that they can get yards on the ground with Herron and not with Richardson. Sorry to see them realize this now. Was hoping they'd stubbornly stick with Richardson.

[wheels]

Herron might be good, but they still need to block for him. Their line is a shambles.

If I had to pick a day that Geno Atkins makes his true triumphant return, this would be it. They need him too. Pressure in Luck's face will be important. Guenther doesn't like to blitz much.

[Big Red Smokey]

Dehner basically said AJ was out.

[Stray]

Yep, green has officially been ruled out for tomorrow. Ball control offense pls...run and short throws. We are gonna be so limited at receiver.

[Stray]

I get that we need to run the ball and control time of possession and all that, especially on the road to wear down their defense. But at some point we're gonna have to make some throws, and when we do, not having AJ Green is a massive loss. Maybe it takes some pressure off the team since we'll be dogs, maybe it fires up Sanu, maybe Dalton trusts his reads and not the ability of his all world receiver...idk, I just know we'd be a lot better off with AJ playing.

For whatever reason I think we'll find a way. I'm always the optimist tho, and Dalton is going to have to be so good with what he'll have to work with... G-go Bengals!

[Assembly Hall]

Tough break fellas........ya just never know though. Best of luck.

[Stray]

If we need it late Dalton will make the drive we need. All I've figured out in Dalton's 3+ years is that if the game is close late, Dalton will find a way more often than not. I just hope he's good enough to keep it close in the first 3 quarters.

[Stray]

Gresham is out too. Yikes.

[wheels]

I think some creative personnel groups will help.

Seven offensive linemen, split Gio out, use Burkhead in the slot (he looks good there), use Sanu in goofy formations as they tend to do. There's some versatility there. Hewitt looks good wherever they put him.

Really though, this going to come down to smash mouth. Be bigger tougher and meaner, hold onto the ball. Things can be overcome. This is a winnable game.

[Redhook]

Gresham is out too. Yikes.

Blessing in disguise. He's a turnover waiting to happen and has a terrible attitude. They're better without him, IMO.

Not having Green is obviously the bigger loss, but most of the Bengals turnovers come from Dalton trying to force it to Green. If Hue can get really creative and they don't turn the ball over, I think they can win. They really need to get the lead early for a change and then run, run, run.

[Dom Heffner]

Hill is effective enough to where Dalton can dink and dunk.

[Joseph]

I've got a bad feeling about this.

[Redhook]

Defense needs to step up. They look awful.

[Joseph]

Ballgame.

That's right, I said it.

[Razor Shines]

Ballgame.

That's right, I said it.

I wish. I have a feeling the Colts are going to try to one up the Bengals in defensive ineptness.

[Tom Servo]

Ballgame.

That's right, I said it.
Yeah sorry boyos, I got no dog in this fight outside of wishing the Bengals well cause you guys are all Reds fans, but I think Indy is taking it for sure.

[Reds Freak]

What's bothered me with previous playoff appearances is their passive game plans. Basic defenses, vanilla offense. Didn't see much evidence of anything different on that first drive

[Joseph]

I just explained to my wife that my Bengals fandom is the opposite of most of my other team fandoms. I think they win only because of the other teams ineptitude and not a dominance on their part in any capacity.

No AJ, no Gresh and I don't see a lot of hope for this team unless the Colts commit a lot of turnovers.

[Razor Shines]

We just gave up 15 yards on an end around to Burkhead, nothing is over.

[Joseph]

But you still stopped them.

[wheels]

The defense is horrible today. No pass rush, and they're getting gashed on the ground.

Forget it. They didn't show up today. At least they always let you know what's going to happen early. I can go do laundry now.

[Stray]

Not getting any pressure on luck at all. Not a good sign.

[Redhook]

Lol. They do look awful thus far. Lucky Hilton dropped that one. Lot of time. Need a score from the offense and lots of turnovers from Luck.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, Sanu caught one. Thought he retired.

[Redhook]

Offense looks a lot better than I thought it would. So glad Hue has shown some creativity. Really need the defense to show up today.

[wheels]

Burkhead out of the slot.

Did anyone catch my post before the game started?

The offense is doing exactly what they should be doing so far. Nice game plan.

But that defense? Peeee Yeew!

And they just tied it! 7-7

Only the second offensive touchdown in three playoff games.

[Stray]

Impressive stuff from hue so far. Dalton looks sharp as well.

[Joseph]

Good drive and good result from the kick off. Time for D to do something.

[Redhook]

Holy smokes, their defense is getting shredded. So many close misses by the Colts. Lucky so far.

[wheels]

Three nice plays to break up passes already. Silver lining in a cloudy start by the defense.

[wheels]

Here we go again.

[Stray]

Defensive line might wanna show up sometime soon

[Redhook]

It's pathetic. They need to blitz often. This is way too easy for Luck.

[Stray]

It's pathetic. They need to blitz often. This is way too easy for Luck.
Even when we've blitzed they haven't gotten there

[wheels]

Maualuga hurt again.

Well....

[wheels]

I guess having Adrew Luck shred them wasn't exactly out of left field, but I did not expect such a poor showing from the front seven. I thought they could handle the Colts line.

[RiverRat13]

The pass rush has been poor all season. They need an OT in the draft, but other than that they should take at least two guys in the first three or four rounds who can get to the quarterback. And maybe this time shy away from 26 year old Eastern Europeans who have only played three years of football.

[wheels]

The secondary has done an admirable job. They're getting zero help from the guys up front. It's hard to keep a guy covered for six or seven seconds in the NFL, but they're playing the ball and fighting the receivers tooth and nail.

[Dom Heffner]

I'm just happy we knocked Leveon Bell out and with him, the Steelers.

[Stray]

Greg little out there giving 50%....nice

[Joseph]

Got to hold them here or its gonna get ugly.

[Reds Freak]

The way the Bengals are getting pressure today, they're going to need to force 2-3 turnovers somehow to have a chance to win this game.

[Stray]

Defense putting a lot of pressure on our offense now. Gotta get points cuz d can't stop the Colts. Not sure we have the weapons to keep up if our d plays like this

[Razor Shines]

.

[Joseph]

Hey its different this time, we can run the football!

D'oh!

[Stray]

We got a pretty good Andy today but doesn't feel like enough.

Nice time for a margus sack

[dabvu2498]

Who is this Dinnerd fellow???

[Reds Freak]

This drive is what I mean by passive game plan. A chance to go up at half and they dink and dunk and hope they get a field goal chance.

[Stray]

Nothing crazy here. If we go in down 1 score that's pretty good the way this half played out.

[Stray]

This drive is what I mean by passive game plan. A chance to go up at half and they dink and dunk and hope they get a field goal chance.

We don't have any receivers. This is our passing game with who we have.

- - - Updated - - -

Nuge!

[Reds Freak]

We don't have any receivers. This is our passing game with who we have.

- - - Updated - - -

Nuge!

They'd do the same thing if Green and Gresham were healthy. But it sure is nice to have that field goal, haha.

[Roy Tucker]

Terrible time management at the end of the half. Nugent bails them out with a 57 yd FG.

[Chip R]

It's no good. He didn't call bank. ;)

[Reds Freak]

Terrible time management at the end of the half. Nugent bails them out with a 57 yd FG.

They generally play with no sense of urgency in a two-minute drill. Nugent has been great since that missed field goal in overtime against Carolina. Count me as someone who thought they should be looking around for a new kicker back then.

[Stray]

We gotta run the ball better in the 2nd half, and defense has to get off the field on 3rd down. Offensively I'm amazed at how we're manufacturing yards with the players we have available. Very creative gameplan for Hue but it doesn't work if we fall down a couple of scores.

[Redhook]

Terrible time management at the end of the half. Nugent bails them out with a 57 yd FG.

It was downright awful wasn't it? You're down 6 in the playoffs and you barely try to score with plenty of time.

[Redhook]

Very creative gameplan for Hue but it doesn't work if we fall down a couple of scores.

I agree. Need Guenther to get creative too. He needs to adjust his plan. The problem is I've never seen a Bengals team adjust at the half. It's not in their repertoire.

They get the ball first. It'd be great if they can score a td. If not, I fear the Colts will sprint away with it.

[The Operator]

It was downright awful wasn't it? You're down 6 in the playoffs and you barely try to score with plenty of time.Marvin Lewis has *always* been terrible at managing the game clock.

He does many things well, but he sucks out loud at clock management.

[The Operator]

This offense is just painful at times.

[Stray]

There's a reason for not being able to pass the ball today, there's no excuse for not being able to run it on these guys.

[Redhook]

They're only down 3, but this so depressing....again. It's like Chinese water torture watching them.

[Roy Tucker]

Unless they get some turnovers, it ain't going to happen today. Looks like the game plan is try to keep it close and hope to get lucky.

[Stray]

Pathetic performance from our D Line

[Razor Shines]

Unless they get some turnovers, it ain't going to happen today. Looks like the game plan is try to keep it close and hope to get lucky.

Well "Bad Luck" isn't as well known and doesn't show up as often as "Bad Andy" but he is lurking, so you never know.

[The Operator]

Luck is getting all day long to throw.

[Redhook]

Guenther is awful. He gets an F- for today.

- - - Updated - - -

Ball game

[The Operator]

That might be the ballgame with the way The Bengals offense is playing. Hope I'm wrong.

[Stray]

Was just a matter of time. Let a guy stand around and get comfortable and he's gonna make plays.

[Stray]

Guenther is awful. He gets an F- for today.

- - - Updated - - -

Ball game

Guenther has been bad but our line play has been worse. They're not coming close to beating 1 on 1s. Colts just leaking their backs out for dump offs cuz the line doesn't need help blocking us.

[Assembly Hall]

Luck is picking them apart.......but lots of game left.

[RiverRat13]

The team the Bengals have out there today would struggle to win six games.

[Roy Tucker]

That's a crap holding call.

[KoryMac5]

Indy stacking the box daring Andy to throw. Sanu or someone has to make a play at some pt with the man coverage Indy uses.

[WMR]

Players are hurt blah blah blah... Dalton is a below average NFL qb... period.

[The Operator]

Indy stacking the box daring Andy to throw. Sanu or someone has to make a play at some pt with the man coverage Indy uses.Yep but to do that Andy has to be able to throw it somewhere near a receiver. Hasn't been too great at that lately.

[Assembly Hall]

Where is Cincy's running game?

[Stray]

That holding call was weak, looked like a good block to me.

Getting into dangerous territory now. We need our defense to get a turnover.

[Joseph]

Next verse, same as the first.

[RiverRat13]

Players are hurt blah blah blah... Dalton is a below average NFL qb... period.

Pretty much. Dalton isn't playing poorly by his standards, but good quarterbacks can allow teams to get through injuries. With Dalton as the Bengals QB, they have to have pretty much everyone healthy to have a shot at beating good teams.

[The Operator]

This is about to get ugly.

[WMR]

I have full confidence that Marvin will be eclipsing Jim Mora's record of 122 wins without a playoff victory...

Mike Brown Represent!

[dougdirt]

Where is Cincy's running game?

Tough to run when they know you aren't going to throw. Or that when you do, you can't.

[Razor Shines]

What a stupid, stupid play. No reason for that block in the back.

[Tom Servo]

Stupid penalty by Moncrief.

[Roy Tucker]

Bengals are now folding.

[Joseph]

I can't watch anymore. It's over for me as a fan of this franchise. I'll always have fond memories, but I'm looking for something that I feel is at least trying to succeed. Marvin and Mike are meant for one another. Stubborn and determined that what they know is more than what the others around them know when proof has shown otherwise consistently.

[Tom Servo]

I have full confidence that Marvin will be eclipsing Jim Mora's record of 122 wins without a playoff victory...

Mike Brown Represent!
You could fire Marvin and hire Jim Mora Jr.

[KoryMac5]

178 yds in offense ain't going to get it done today against Luck or anyone. Another year another loss in the playoffs. Unfortunately we have gone as far as we can with Marvin, unfortunately his replacement is in Minny.

[The Operator]

Got incredibly lucky to get away with only a field goal there.

I still have no faith in this offense to do anything though. None whatsoever.

[Stray]

Pretty huge stop there. We need a touchdown in the worst way.

[WMR]

You could fire Marvin and hire Jim Mora Jr.

Shouldnt you be focused on the game right now, Mr. Brown? :rolleyes:

[Stray]

Feels like every playoff game really. Except this time I'm not really mad at Dalton.

We're running deep routes to Brandon Tate, slants to Burkhead and clearouts with whoever Hamilton is. Beyond frustrating.

[Tom Servo]

Shouldnt you be focused on the game right now, Mr. Brown? :rolleyes:
http://seattletimes.com/ABPub/2009/09/05/2009813564.jpg

[The Operator]

This is about as good as things are ever gonna be until they decide to draft a QB who can do more than just manage a game.

[Roy Tucker]

Tate can't run the go like Green. And Sanu has disappeared. They went away from Hill which was a mistake.

Defense is trying but are in a precarious spot now.

[Stray]

Geno had a chance to keep them out of FG territory and tried a weak arm tackle. Then pats the butt of the Indy player and jogs off the field.

Solid effort.

[The Operator]

Defense is doing their part holding The Colts to field goals but this offense can't do crap.

[WMR]

Geno had a chance to keep them out of FG territory and tried a weak arm tackle. Then pats the butt of the Indy player and jogs off the field.

Solid effort.
They've already accepted the loss.

[Stray]

Can almost feel the Dalton interception coming now. He has to take chances, his receivers are horrible, the Colts know he's gonna be throwing...